When Imperial Veterans came out, TIE/D evoked considerable excitement, but never got much love when a) Soontir was still everywhere, and b) /x7 was such a good deal. Then /x7 got nerfed, bombwing showed up, and the Defender faded from the limelight in its entirety. Bummer, right?

Well, practice to date has suggested to me that maybe we missed a trick with the TIE/D in all the kerfuffle. It might not be quite tier 1, but it's certainly an interesting meta-call. You see, the thing that really kept TIE/D down was a couple of limitations: 1) It's an expensive ship, 2) It lacks accuracy on offense (due to a shortage of takens) 3) Thusly lacking tokens, it can't hit aces like Soontir to save itself.

... Key, kids, notice how Soontir disappeared? Thanks to Agility 1 bombers ? TIE/D hits those just fine .

I've been fiddling with various builds of the ships, and ended up taking Top 4 in our local Regionals with the following. Given I won't be making Nationals this year, thought I might share a few thoughts on the ship, and the specific list I flew.

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

Colonel Vessery (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Flechette Cannon (2)
Hull Upgrade (3)
TIE/D (0)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Ion Cannon (3)
TIE/D (0)

Total: 100

I have a long-running enjoyment of 3-ship 'triple threat' lists: When Acewing was in its prime, rather than Palp Aces, I was flying Triple Aces. Perhaps mathematically a little weaker, it meant that I could afford to lose any one ship and still be doing just fine - and if I lost two (due to bad luck or bad matchups), any one of my ships still had a legitimate shot at winning the endgame - and, not to toot my own horn, frequently did.

This list is similar, and also provides my favourite dilemma to present my opponents:

• Vessery is a famed powerhouse of shooty red dice, and with TIE/D he's shooting twice . Kill him quickly.
• That little Delta isn't much. Except he's packing an Ion Cannon, and this can be both lethal to bombers and really scary to bigger ships once they've got that first token landed. You could even PS-kill him! Kill him quickly.
• Omega Leader is infamous for his 1v1 capacity; obviously you need to not let him live till the endgame. Kill him quickly. ... wait a minute...

Bombers are meant to be the weakness of Imperial craft, but honestly, cautious flying with an Ion and a Flechette providing total lockdown, and even partial control if even one hits, shuts them down hard. Cautious flying can usually get arc on a Nym or Miranda in the opening phases, and either cannon can seriously impede their movement. If both get a hit, you can almost guarantee the thing is dead next turn. Two of them at once is trickier, but Miranda Ion'd is cranky, and AdvS Nym really hates Flechette cannons, and Defenders really do have the HP to tank a Nym bump or Sabine'd bomb... provided you make sure they pay dearly in return. (With the build above, I found the most vital thing was to keep OL out of harms way as best I could; quite often this involves leaving him as bait. Trading a 26pt ship for a double-tokened, severely damaged bomber with two Defenders in arc next turn to boot has not been a trade many opponents have been keen on.)

The above list is far from the only configuration, of course: A different EPT on Vessery (I just liked having two ships at PS8, and it certainly paid off against Dash), possibly trading out Hull Upgrade for x1s on the Defenders, trading out OL for something entirely different, are all perfectly reasonable. That said, I found it had a couple extra quirks to it that I quite liked, even if far from compulsory:

• Vessery is still the obvious target, but the extra hitpoint means he's that teeny bit more irritating to kill, and the Flechette cannon is the weaker of the two control cannons while still scary own right.
• The Delta claws some small token efficiency out of his PS: Take a Focus, spend it defensively whenever possible (because hitpoints are life on such offense-heavy ships); then if it's not been spent, use it on the Ion Cannon to ensure a hit; then it can be applied to the primary shot if you've not used it yet. The ion cannon being on the PS1 ship also means that if it gets hits at all, especially against small bases, it can keep getting hits even if it's the last ship standing.
• Omega Leader... people often decide to try and focus down OL first. If played defensively enough (Target locking your biggest threat, spending Evade when needed, flying to keep out of arcs as much as possible, etc), he can survive a remarkably long time, and if I traded a 26pt ship for enough rounds of relatively unimpeded fire from the Defenders, well, things usually ended up working out just fine.

I'm not saying this list is perfect - indeed, when I got my *** handed to me, it was almost always to some variety of Imperial Aces piloted by folks who were clearly good enough to jink through the bombs themselves. (Indeed, our regional was won by a freakin' Whisper, who went on from our Top 4 game to methodically dismantle a well-flown Fair Ship Rebels and take the title. I dunno how he beats bomber lists, but I sure as heck couldn't scratch the thing!) Also in theory, swarm lists may offer TIE/D Defenders a headache, but... against the 'top' meta stuff? You can certainly do worse, and it's certainly been worth the faces of my opponents as it sinks in just what they're facing... usually after the first round of fire.

When I was musing on the list with @Biophysical (thanks for the feedback, dude!), he also suggested the following variation:

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

Colonel Vessery (35)
Lone Wolf (2)
Flechette Cannon (2)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Ion Cannon (3)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

This one would grant Vessery more late-game and independent-operator power, and a little more stress management all round, but I'll be honest and admit my attempts to fly it proved I am waaay out of practice at Lone Wolf rangekeeping, so I left it for another day. Still an interesting variation, and one I'd suggest anyone interested give a try as well.

I love the idea and I'm still waiting to put it on a table! My local meta has around half of the players with a Nym in their list, so it's a relatively safe call.

We aren't the first ones with this idea though (see e.g. here, and there were numerous individual posts all over)

I went with an Aggressor as third ship because of TLT to punch damage through, but the idea of stress+ion is the same, for all factions.
I just believe that the other factions can achieve the same result with better methods

I though about somthing like this the other day too. LW Vess is great.

Flechette Cannon not stacking has been a huge drawback for a long time. Imagine if it could. Or the damage cap was lifted if they were already stressed. Stress control would have been a great counter to so much before everything got 6 green moves and stressed actions anyway.

I'll admit that I've never played in a tournament, nor do I have any intention of doing so. However, I've been an advocate of /d Defenders since the title was announced. Here's my favorite combo at the moment:

99 points

Colonel Vessery, Tractor Beam, Veteran Instincts, TIE/D, TIE Mk II

Rexler Brath, Ion Cannon, Expertise, TIE/D, TIE MkII

"Wamp", Targeting Computer

The idea is to let Vessery shoot before Rexler, benefiting from target locks to trigger his ability and freeing Rexler to take TL instead of Focus (ignore his ability) and still spend the TL to modify one of his own attacks (preferably boosted by a Tractor Beam token). Wampa is scary no matter what, especially to low hull targets, and the combination of tractor beam and ion cannon gives you a lot of control. It also has the points to swap a Flechette Cannon for the Tractor Beam if you want, or change Expertise to Predator, strip the TC from Wampa, or tweak in other ways as you like. Really, you can plug in any TIE you want, I just find Wampa to draw an inordinate amount of ire. "Epsilon Ace" is probably not a bad option for Vessery, giving you a PS 12 source of target locks, and the way his ability work incentivizes targeting him early to get him at least one damage card.

Congratulations on the regional win!

Defenders never left our local meta, and now they are coming back strong with lists that are very close to yours, even though Nym-Miranda never really was a thing here (one of my friends won one store championship with them, and that was about it). Locally the hotness is still Defenders (equal parts /x7 and /D), imperials with Cruise Missiles, and 4-ship rebels.

1 hour ago, Rakky Wistol said:

I though about somthing like this the other day too. LW Vess is great.

Flechette Cannon not stacking has been a huge drawback for a long time. Imagine if it could. Or the damage cap was lifted if they were already stressed. Stress control would have been a great counter to so much before everything got 6 green moves and stressed actions anyway.

That's the thing here, though - you're right that Flechettes aren't awesome , like some of the other stress-weapons, but they shut down AdvS Nym from being able to use his pre-move boost, and that restricts his mobility - especially his reactive mobility - a lot . Further, that single stress token... being able to double-stress was great for shutting down Aces with PTL, but against most other opponents, unless you could double-stress (aka stressbot, etc), it didn't matter much. It's a bit like flying Tactician on Boba Fett in the old days - it's not about trying to lock down their actions completely, but about heavily restricting their choices next turn - for Nym and Miranda they're either stuck on greens (which massively restricts their bombing options), or they're losing their reposition actions entirely - both are a rough prospect, and with Vessery, you're landing a stress token almost every round without any real effort.

And then the Delta adds fuel to the fire - I thought his PS being so low would be deeply troublesome, but it actually worked out to my advantage - if a ship was ever caught in both arcs, I found they'd start burning defensive tokens against the flechette cannon, because they were spooked - not of the stress token, but at the prospect that the Ion Cannon might hit too.

Is Ion better? Usually, yeah. Are many of the other options superior? Sure. But don't discount the Flechette cannon when it's a freebie shot from a ship that's getting mods on the attack roll anyway. That's worth the points, and don't discount that damage! Against low agility targets, you're easily out-damaging HLCs with them.

50 minutes ago, stonestokes said:

Congratulations on the regional win!

Defenders never left our local meta, and now they are coming back strong with lists that are very close to yours, even though Nym-Miranda never really was a thing here (one of my friends won one store championship with them, and that was about it). Locally the hotness is still Defenders (equal parts /x7 and /D), imperials with Cruise Missiles, and 4-ship rebels.

Top 4. Whisper blew me to peices, but I can honestly say I was not expecting to face Whisper at the top tables... and anyone who manages to get Whisper that far probably deserves to blow me up.

I've been a pretty vocal fan of the TIE/D title as an option against PS1 bombers. I had good luck with this list, but am thinking of tweaking it a bit:

VESSERY'S FIRST ORDER 100 points

PILOTS
“Backdraft” (31) Special Forces TIE (27), Adaptability (0), Fire-Control System (2), Special Ops Training (0), Lightweight Frame (2)

Colonel Vessery (43) TIE Defender (35), Ion Cannon (3), Expertise (4), TIE/D (0), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

“Omega Leader” (26) TIE/fo Fighter (21), Comm Relay (3), Juke (2)

Expertise Vess hits like a truck and can save his focus tokens for defense, but has a big target on his back. Trading accuracy for VI would buy you three points, which could buy you a PS9 Backdraft with Primed Thrusters and an initiative bid, or go straight to either a VI Quickdraw or Adaptable Quickdraw with Thrusters.

I'd really like to put something along these lines on the table:

Colonel Vessery (35)
Expertise (4)
Flechette Cannon (2)
Hull Upgrade (3)
TIE/D (0)

Glaive Squadron Pilot (34)
Expertise (4)
Ion Cannon (3)
Hull Upgrade (3)
TIE/D (0)

Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

But I don't own any Defenders. Anyway, watching this thread with interest.

The best possible Imperial answer to Nym is an Ion Cannon Turret Aggressor. It also happens to shut down Miranda. Fly the Aggressor with two aces (I'm thinking Kylo and Whisper when they come out) and go to town with your arc-dodginess.

My friend flies this list, much to my dismay because I don't own Nym, or any Scum. It's hellishly effective against all targets.

Colonel Vessery (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Tractor Beam (1)
TIE/D (0)

Countess Ryad (34)
Push the Limit (3)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

OL acts as a spotter for Vessery with his target lock, then Ves starts up with a TB shot to reduce agility and/or fling the target onto rocks, then OL and Ryad can light it up with even higher chances of hitting. PTL Ryad either arc dodges or uses TL+Focus for more offense. When they can focus down targets one by one, they are deadly, especially to low AGI ships.

And to my Triple T-70 build. I'm going to throw out Jess for a Stressbot for our next match. I had to find out the hard way that Vessery loves it when his opponents are supported by M9-G8 rerolls.

I've been playing 3x Delta's with TIE/D and Ion Cannons for a while now. They are indeed a hard counter to Nym/Miranda, but TIE/Ds do suffer with all the Ordnance in the meta ATM. Ordnance can be played around though.

The delta's are also really dice dependant. You essentially have (at most) 2 focus tokens across your whole list for offence (the third will be spent defending a TIE/D). It's fine if you're against agility 1 targets, but against agility 2+ the dice can be very swingy, and it will occasionally lose you games. It a fun list, but by no means competitive.

You don't have to go as full out as 3x Deltas. Currently TIE/D Vessery with an ion cannon is a solid choice in an Imperial list. If you don't want to have the TL synergy (for whatever reason) Ryad with Predator (plus TIE/D and IonC) is an excellent stand-alone ship, especially on a flank.

4 hours ago, Rakky Wistol said:

I though about somthing like this the other day too. LW Vess is great.

Flechette Cannon not stacking has been a huge drawback for a long time. Imagine if it could. Or the damage cap was lifted if they were already stressed. Stress control would have been a great counter to so much before everything got 6 green moves and stressed actions anyway.

If it did full damage to stressed targets it would be awesome.

If only FFG actually had a policy of fixing old crappy cards. I might even be able to use Daredevil

3 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

VESSERY'S FIRST ORDER 100 points

PILOTS
“Backdraft” (31) Special Forces TIE (27), Adaptability (0), Fire-Control System (2), Special Ops Training (0), Lightweight Frame (2)

Colonel Vessery (43) TIE Defender (35), Ion Cannon (3), Expertise (4), TIE/D (0), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

“Omega Leader” (26) TIE/fo Fighter (21), Comm Relay (3), Juke (2)

A friend of mine won a store championship with a list very close to this one. There was no Nym at the time, but it was good then and is still good now:

“Quickdraw” (36) Special Forces TIE (29), Draw Their Fire (1), Fire-Control System (2), Special Ops Training (0), Lightweight Frame (2), Pattern Analyzer (2)

Colonel Vessery (38) TIE Defender (35), Ion Cannon (3), A Score to Settle (0), TIE/D (0)

“Omega Leader” (26) TIE/fo Fighter (21), Comm Relay (3), Juke (2)

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

If it did full damage to stressed targets it would be awesome.

If only FFG actually had a policy of fixing old crappy cards. I might even be able to use Daredevil

Honestly, I initially thought the same, but have since concluded the lack of stacking stress isn't such a big deal - it hurts that you can't tag the opponents that run PTL or who just k-turned for the dreaded double stress... But that's not it's point.

It would need to be, of course, if it's a vehicles primary attack (this is why it sucks in general), but as an add on attack? A chaser to the three die psuedo-TLT shot? On a ship with a white k-turn? You may not double-stress, but it's an excellent way to leave them flying greens turn after turn - and in doing so, making them even easier to keep on target.

Not bad when you're still getting your primary. I feel we've been spoiled by stressbots and braylen, and over-used to stress being primarily a counter-PTL Ace weapon, when... It doesn't have to be. Not as a bonus effect on a double tap.

Oh, and as long as you can hit, it completely shuts down AdvS. Shuttle hard stops too. That can be mighty handy when planning your kturns.

It's nice. BUt it's not ion cannon, which will almost never be bad to shoot at something, or tractor beam which will never be bad to shoot at anything with better than 0 agility.

Flechette is nice it's just not... amazing.

And on the Gunboat, there's a chance with Vynder of it being the primary armament - and it just doesn't stack up in that context.

Why oh why XG1 didn't allow cost 3

I took triple Defenders to the European Championships with this very idea in mind. OK, the Scurrg hadn't hit yet, but I was expecting to face lots of low-agility ships with the likes of Miranda, ARCs, Rey, Decimators, YVs, Ghosts, Y-Wings etc. I figured that being able to control the movement of these ships with ion weaponry should be able to give me an advantage. So I took:

Maarek Stele - TIE/x7, Veteran Instincts
Delta Squadron Pilot - TIE/D, Ion Cannon x 2
(Maarek was originally supposed to be Vessery, until I realised at the last minute that he shares a base title with the Delta)

The only games I managed to win over the Friday and Saturday were against other x7 Defenders. And I did face a fair few agility 0/1 lists as well. How does that work?

That said, I do believe TIE/D is a really overlooked method of dealing with the current meta for Imperial lists - it clearly just needs to be exploited by a better player than me!

The trouble with Defenders is how predictable they are. Even /ds that don't have to go fast, rely on 3 main moves - 1 bank, 3 turn, 4k. And Defenders were popular enough for long enough that people can predict them and counterplay them.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

I took triple Defenders to the European Championships with this very idea in mind. OK, the Scurrg hadn't hit yet, but I was expecting to face lots of low-agility ships with the likes of Miranda, ARCs, Rey, Decimators, YVs, Ghosts, Y-Wings etc. I figured that being able to control the movement of these ships with ion weaponry should be able to give me an advantage. So I took:

Maarek Stele - TIE/x7, Veteran Instincts
Delta Squadron Pilot - TIE/D, Ion Cannon x 2
(Maarek was originally supposed to be Vessery, until I realised at the last minute that he shares a base title with the Delta)

The only games I managed to win over the Friday and Saturday were against other x7 Defenders. And I did face a fair few agility 0/1 lists as well. How does that work?

That said, I do believe TIE/D is a really overlooked method of dealing with the current meta for Imperial lists - it clearly just needs to be exploited by a better player than me!

I found the asymmetry of having OL as my 'Ace' made for more flexibility - the selection of turns were especially helpful with knife fighting, and adding a little asymmetry to the mix. And, honestly, I liked the flechette more than a second ion - even if it only locked big ships down every second turn, it locks things down way harder when it does.

Not to say that list is bad! I just found myself drifting from 'man, I wish I could afford that second ion cannon' to 'on second thought, that flechette is doing good work'; especially against Poe and nym.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's nice. BUt it's not ion cannon, which will almost never be bad to shoot at something, or tractor beam which will never be bad to shoot at anything with better than 0 agility.

Flechette is nice it's just not... amazing.

And on the Gunboat, there's a chance with Vynder of it being the primary armament - and it just doesn't stack up in that context.

Why oh why XG1 didn't allow cost 3

I faced decimators and ghosts often enough that 'doesn't work against 0agi' honestly came up about as often as 'ship relies on PTL'... With the crucial difference that the flechette cannon is still doing damage, and to be honest, that's why you bought it.

Flechette on a TIE/D is a very different proposition to it being a ships primary attack, and I'm specifically thinking of it here as being a single such cannon in the list, too. It's simply a damage dealer that cuts many of it's favorite opponents to a more predicable flight path, and threatens (with supporting ion) total lockdown.

It's the pairing , in a list that sacrifices no damage output to achieve it, that I found key.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

The trouble with Defenders is how predictable they are. Even /ds that don't have to go fast, rely on 3 main moves - 1 bank, 3 turn, 4k. And Defenders were popular enough for long enough that people can predict them and counterplay them.

It doesn’t matter if you can predict where they will go if your only choice is a 1 white forward.

As a lover of T-70s, I have a white-hot loathing of /Ds. The double tap mechanic is still a little OP.

Vessery with a tractor beam paired with a delta sporting an ion cannon is brutal. Throw in OL for the TL and late game shenanigans, it’s a really tough list to face if you are a small base ship with less than 3 agi.

So mods please lock this thread and delete it before more people catch on to the /D, I find them offensive!

The problem with TIE/D, to my mind, is twofold - it results in a painfully expensive ship that lacks defences necessary to protect that investment. Like pre-Veterans Defenders, it will suffer from taking 'the odd hit', particularly early in the game, and unless it's Vessery it will also struggle to modify shots effectively, leading to wasted turns which a 40+ pt ship cannot afford. Having a low PS generally will hurt as well (the best being Rex at native 8, but he's so very pricey) meaning higher PS ships (Miranda against Vessery, Ryad or generics, Nym against all of them) will have a large opportunity to dodge your arc altogether.
I want the TIE/D to be as effective as x/7, but...it just isn't. Too many times your insanely expensive Defender will lose valuable shots and be chipped away before it contributes enough to justify itself.

My favorite control list I'm still working out until the Gunboat arrives:

Vynder, OS-1, Adv.slam. Ion pulse, cruise, VI

Kestal, LWF, Ion cannon t., VI

Backdraft, LWF, FCS, Spec.Ops, Primed thrus, VI

Backdraft aint much of a control, he is just scary. All 9-s. Ion galore.

2 hours ago, Reiver said:

I found the asymmetry of having OL as my 'Ace' made for more flexibility - the selection of turns were especially helpful with knife fighting, and adding a little asymmetry to the mix. And, honestly, I liked the flechette more than a second ion - even if it only locked big ships down every second turn, it locks things down way harder when it does.

Not to say that list is bad! I just found myself drifting from 'man, I wish I could afford that second ion cannon' to 'on second thought, that flechette is doing good work'; especially against Poe and nym.

I faced decimators and ghosts often enough that 'doesn't work against 0agi' honestly came up about as often as 'ship relies on PTL'... With the crucial difference that the flechette cannon is still doing damage, and to be honest, that's why you bought it.

Flechette on a TIE/D is a very different proposition to it being a ships primary attack, and I'm specifically thinking of it here as being a single such cannon in the list, too. It's simply a damage dealer that cuts many of it's favorite opponents to a more predicable flight path, and threatens (with supporting ion) total lockdown.

It's the pairing , in a list that sacrifices no damage output to achieve it, that I found key.

This. It's somehow the most overlooked fact in these strategy threads that there is a squad attached to a ship in question. The "multiple primary threat" idea is right on the money, doubly so when talking about ships that are this costly.

I'd also like to second Flechette/ Ion over double Ion. Why? Because:

a) focus fire is a must against beefy ships, so I'm trying to get a single ship into every possible arc anyways.

b) the current Meta, especially the likes of Nym, are most adaptable when taking repositioning actions with perfect information, which Ion does not shut down. Action economy in general is what I'll want to put a lid on- which is best done by stressing a ship that can't get away. At best, I'll want both effects.

c) TiE D's, even without the X7s evade token, can take the odd hit that gets through the 3 evade dice- they got 6 health total.

2 hours ago, Reiver said:

It's the pairing , in a list that sacrifices no damage output to achieve it, that I found key.

Agreed. I'm not convinced that it sacrifices no damage output (because as noted, the cannons also draw from your pool of tokens) but a mix of stress and ion tokens is far, far more brutal than just one or the other.

It's the same reason why I still see one of the better local players use the Ion Cannon turret version of the stresshog, not the TLT variant - because one Ion token and two stress is way more brutal than just a couple of stress.