So try as I might, I just can't seem to get a build a greyjoy deck with a discard theme and get it to work. I've tried numerous iterations, but it always seems that the discard effect characters are 1 strength weenies and get overwhelmed so easily. I know this present iteration doesn't work, so i'm looking for some change suggestions:

King of Salt and Rock (agenda)

Plots
Wildfire Assault
Fury of the Kraken (ancient enemies)
Rise of the Kraken (ITE)
Filthy Accusations (ITLP)
Building Season (core)
Conventions of War (5kE)
Free for all (5ke) (note: the last time I played I had desolate passage from the raven's song, but swapped it out in the second game when I realized one attacker/defender didn't work well with everything else)

Characters
Euron Crow's Eye (ITE)
Harbor Thug (x3) (hand)
Seaside Urchin (x3) (hand)
Zealous Deckhand (x2) (ITE)
Maester Wendamyr (Thorns)
Qarl the Maid (5ke)
Desperate Looters (x3) (scattered armies)
Drowned Disciple (x3) (ITE)
Asha Greyjoy (ITE)
Distinguished Boatswain (red keep)
Wex Pyke (ITE)
Balon Greyjoy x2 (ITE)

locations
Sunset Sea (x2) (ITE)
Aeron's Chambers (ITE)
Longship Iron Victory (KOTS)
Fishmonger's Square (red keep)
Iron Island Fiefdoms (KOTS)
Whirlpool (x3) (5ke)
Hamlet of the isles (5ke)
Stormlands (5ke)

Attachments:
Kraken Tatoo (x3) (secrets)
Naval Support x3 (5ke)

Events
Risen from the Sea (x2) (ITE)
And Rises Again x2 (5ke)

After putting together this breakdown, a few things jump out at me. 1. That previously I had been using the Building season to snag whilrpools and get the discard going quicker. It may be a better strategy to use it to pull L:IV for the strength pump. 2. In the alternative, I could toss in a few other strength pump cards like squadron of the high seas, twin axes, or my single seafarer's bow. I'm hesitant to use Squadron of the high seas due to cost. 3. I had avoided scouting vessels (despite being my favorite warship) because 11 locations seemed a little high for a KoSaR deck. They may be necessary, though, due to the low strengths of the disciples and urchins. 4. The deck is save heavy, which may be a good place to start cutting things.

As much as I would love one, I don't have access to another Euron from ITE to act as a dupe/save, as he is a massive target. I also don't have any veteran looters from thorns, but may be able to get some through creative trading.

What are some suggestions, and I appreciate the help.

FuriousG said:

Before getting into anything specific, I need to ask a clarifying question: when you "build a GJ deck with a discard theme and get it to work ," what do you have in mind? What is a "working mill deck"? One that clears out an opponent's deck fast? One that wins by discard? One that lets you discard cards for the heck of it without getting your rear-end handed to you in other aspects of the game? One that wins more often than it loses? It could mean a lot of things, so what do you envision when you say you want this theme to work?

Ultimately, this theme tends to be more cute than competitive. Reason being, you tend to spend so much time (and so many card slots) trying to get a discard engine running that your opponent wipes you out in challenges, etc. - or you build a deck that wins through its support of the discard theme rather than the theme itself. That's why it is so important to define the role you expect discarding to play in the deck from the beginning.

Before I offer suggestions, can I ask what you're building restrictions are? How far back are you playing? ITE, 5KE plus all LCG?

One thing I thought I would mention that we discovered at our meta's last game is that Warf Rats and the Kraken Tattoo produces a odd little combo if you choose not to trigger the response and keep them on their side. That's what I know since I generally don't play Greyjoy.

I should have clarified that, Ktom and I didn't. I'm not looking for it to be a world championship deck. I'd be satisfied with it winning 2/3-1/2 of the games it plays. The only restrictions I have are ITE on.

I tend to agree with your assessment that the theme tends to be more cute than competitive, its one of the reasons I set out to try and make it "work".

FuriousG said:

If that is the measure, I'd suggest thinning out the discard. Don't try to make it the main focus of the deck. Use discard as the annoying red herring that makes your opponent forget that you're killing him with stealth, unopposed challenges and the like. For example, when Veteran Looters draws the kill effect, don't be upset; chuckle because it would have made much more sense in the greater scheme of things to go after Balon.

In general, I think this is where the discard theme does the most good - as a highly visible and distracting side theme that will occasionally net huge benefits.

The main problem with making a mill deck in AGOT is that milling cards doesn't win you the game. The only way you can win the game is to be the first player to posses the necessary level of power tokens (generally 15). AGOT is not like other card games where if you mill an opponents deck you win. You still need 15 power!

It's because of this that most players find their mill decks aren't as successful as they liked them to be. The decks are simply too focused on milling and not on trying to win the game. This is why Drowned Disciple is one of the worst mill cards. It's 3 gold for a ONE str character that has to be KILLED to mill three cards. Drowned Disciple stats are simply too weak to justify it's high cost and the fact that you have to kill it to make it's ability work. Additionally milling those three cards does absolutely nothing to help you win the game. The fact that you just had to kill it means your opponent is probably beating you at the moment.

You may think by now that I believe it's a terrible idea to make a mill deck in AGOT but that's not true! In fact I had a Greyjoy mill deck back in CCG. It's just that I made sure that whenever I milled my opponent it A) was helping me win the game and/or B) the card that caused the mill effect was helping me win the game in "non-mill" ways.

Below is the Greyjoy Mill deck I ran in CCG. It's a few cards short of the 60 cards minimum as I took a bit of it apart when CCG was finally sent to the grave. Chances were that it was probably another character (I remember having 20 character cards), another attachment like milk of the poppy, and perhaps another attachment or event.

- Plots (7) avg income: 3.4 -
Fury of the Kraken x1 Ancient Enemies F28
Conventions of War x1 Five Kings Edition U222
Wildfire Assault x1 Five Kings Edition F241
Winter Storm x1 A House of Thorns U137
On Raven's Wings x1 Iron Throne Edition U227
Rise of the Kraken x1 Iron Throne Edition U230
The Gathering Storm x1 Iron Throne Edition F241
- Characters (19) avg cost: 3.4 -
Herald of the Sea x1 Sacred Bonds F55
King Balon's Host x2 The War of Five Kings F5
The Drowned Horde x1 Five Kings Edition R93
Myrcella Lannister x1 Five Kings Edition R132
Maritime Sneakthief x1 A House of Talons R67
Maester Wendamyr x3 A House of Thorns U20
Veteran Looters x3 A House of Thorns U27
Asha Greyjoy x1 Iron Throne Edition U67
Euron Crow's Eye x3 Iron Throne Edition R69
The Reader x1 Iron Throne Edition R71
Wex Pyke x1 Iron Throne Edition R73
Septon of the Isles x1 Iron Throne Legacy Pack F24
- Locations (16) avg cost: 1.3 -
Cape Kraken x1 Five Kings Edition R94
Hamlet of the Isles x2 Five Kings Edition C96
Whirlpool x3 Five Kings Edition C99
The North x1 Five Kings Edition C157
The Iron Islands x1 Five Kings Edition U158
The Vale x1 Five Kings Edition R159
The Riverlands x1 Five Kings Edition R161
The Shield Islands x1 A House of Thorns R91
Aeron's Chambers x1 Iron Throne Edition U80
Watery Shrine x1 Iron Throne Edition U84
Sunset Sea x3 Iron Throne Edition U144
- Attachments (13) avg cost: 1.5 -
High Tide x2 Five Kings Edition C76
Iron King's Bannerman x1 Five Kings Edition R77
Naval Support x3 Five Kings Edition U78
Hooked Trident x3 A House of Thorns R18
Foothold on the Shore x1 Iron Throne Edition U64
Grand Maester's Chain x2 Iron Throne Legacy Pack F39
Milk of the Poppy x1 Iron Throne Legacy Pack F42
- Events (9) -
To Be a Kraken x2 Sacred Bonds F47
Here Is My Husband x3 Five Kings Edition R200
Risen from the Sea x3 Iron Throne Edition C187
Paying the Iron Price x1 Iron Throne Edition R196

At least 80% of the games won involved getting Euron out and putting Hooked Trident and Naval Support on him. Once this happened the game would pretty much be won within 2 turns as you would get 3 unopposed challenges in a turn. Since Euron is immune to trigger effects he is pretty much (but not entirely) untouchable. Kneel effects, 99% of events, icon removal, etc. None of them could touch Euron. I loved him and with the exception of Maester Wendamyr he was my favorite character.

Even though Euron was well protected being ITE that posed a problem as well. I couldn't use triggered effects on him either, which meant I couldn't save him (unless he had a dupe). So while getting Euron out with Hooked Trident and Naval Support was my ultimate objective, my primary objective was making certain that his environment was safe. This is where Maester Wendamyr came him. If by the beginning of the second turn I didn't have him out or in my hand, I played On Raven's Wings to put him into play. Wendamyr was so important because he was capable of pulling off two saves a turn. This was important because not only did I have less character cards than most other decks (20 instead of the normal 30), but I needed to be able to save other characters so I wouldn't be forced to kill Euron. While it wasn't impossible to win without Euron, it became very difficult to do so.

As you can see, I've yet to mention anything about milling. What I consider to be the two most important objectives have nothing to do with milling, and this is why my deck was so successful. I was focused on trying to win the game, not milling my opponent's deck. You could argue that Naval Support requires milling, but general discard and Euron's mill effect could take care of that issue by themselves.

So where does mill come into play? Well, as ktom said it's a great red herring. There's certainly a great psychological factor of seeing many of your cards being sent to the discard pile, but that alone isn't enough. Milling cards has to help you win the game, and that's why virtually all my milling cards had immediate benefits when used. One example is Here is My Husband. Yes it milled four cards, but more importantly it had a high chance of immediately canceling event cards. Whirlpools milled 3 cards each a turn, but they had a good chance of immediately letting me stand one of my characters. The Shield Islands not only let me see my opponents deck and mine, but let me immediately discard the top of both of our decks. So I could be using it to get rid of a card I don't want my opponent to have, or to get rid of a card I don't really need to draw. Cape Kraken (best used in conjunction with The Shield Islands) immediately gave me extra draw or immediately allowed me to send the top of my opponent's deck to the dead pile (this was great for unique characters). The only other mill cards I had besides Euron were the Veteran Looters. While there milling effect didn't bring any immediate benefit for me, when it went off the Looters stood again in conjunction with it; thus allowing me to use them in another challenge or have them standing for dominance.

All the other cards in my deck were normal non-milling cards. Grand Maester's Chain was my attachment control. Cards like High Tide, Iron King's Bannerman, and Septon of the Isles were location control. Watery Shrine let me look for dupes, better protecting my characters and giving me free draw. The list goes on.

If you actually take a close look at the deck it was more of a "not lose" deck then a "let's win" deck. The milling (and the immediate benefits that came out of it), location control, attachment control, and saves were all really meant to stall my opponent until I could complete my ultimate objective.

What's most important to learn from all my rambling is that when you make mill deck in AGOT milling has to be something that helps you win. In CCG many (not all) of the mill cards had IMMEDIATE effects that could help you. In LCG it seems like FFG is moving away from this and is instead requiring cards to be or put into play that benefit from milling or previous milling. An example is Balon Shadows, which allows you to take control of a shadows card when it is milled. Notice how Balon does not mill the deck, but another card effect has to. Same goes for Fishmonger's Square. It only goes off when another card effect mills a deck. Blackwater Raiders require locations already having been milled. These cards are not like Whirlpool that has both milling and the effect in one package. There are weenie characters with the "all-in-one" package (i.e. Desperate Looters, Seaside Urchin, etc.), but Looters is just a claim soak and Seaside Urchin and it's other single-icon counterparts require you to win a challenge with them, and have to get rather lucky for their ability to pay off. Personally, I rather have a weenie like Wex Pyke, or a stronger character like Victarion or Damger.

The fact of the matter is that milling is currently much weaker in LCG than it was in CCG. More milling cards are coming out, but so far I'm just seeing mill cards that when on their own (no Balon on the side or Fishmonger's Square in play) offer no immediate benefit other than the (weak) benefit of mill alone, and vice versa (cards like Balon that benefit from mill but don't provide mill themselves). This is not to say that a good LCG mill deck can't be made in the future, it's just that it'll require a much heavier commitment to milling than I would like.

If you're curious, the deck above would on average make an opponent go through 45 of their cards through a game (this count includes opponent's draw). Perhaps 4 or maybe 5 times of the many games I played, I milled my opponent. I did win those games, but only in one of them was it because my opponent ran out of cards (they also had no cards in hand). That opponent was playing with the Greyjoy Agenda, and only had 45 cards in his deck.

Oh, and the Greyjoy Agenda isn't worth running unless you're making a rush deck.

I would love to make a mill deck again, and maybe one day it'll be more viable in LCG. I hope all of this helps.