17 hours ago, coyote6 said:

Boba Fett looks cool, IMO. That's the basis of the love.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell as to why all the Mando-love.

Fett was "cool" because he looked cool, sounded cool, was mysterious, and the fact that Vader pretty much singled him out for a direct order ("No disintegrations!") made folks think there had to be a really cool story about this one guy, even though he really didn't do anything on screen to warrant his memetic badass status.

Add in the EU tidbit of making him a proper Mandalorian (rather than a pretender wearing their armor as I believe was the original intention with the character), and it mostly just snowballed from there, with Traviss making the final leap and turning them into the GFFA's version of Trek's Klingons, complete with a made-up language and a cultural superiority complex the size of the first Death Star.

22 minutes ago, ASCI Blue said:

History lesson: The Mandalorians of old (confirmed by Rebels) while they lost, did a damned good job of bringing the Republic and the Jedi to a screeching halt during their war. The Jedi sat around playing grab *** with each other when Revan decided to do something about it (comics and KOTOR game). He semi-broke away from the Jedi order with around half of them and took on the Mandos head to head using their tactics against them. This is confirmed by Canderous Ordo in KOTOR.

Yep, and the original concept art from ESB, also confirms that the Mandalorians were these badass warriors defeated by the Jedi long ago.

10 minutes ago, Maelora said:

I think this is very true (and I kinda like them).

Boba Fett looks cool, no question, but he never does much in the movies, and he's really the epitome of a fan-favourite character elevated beyond his real importance, just because of his 'cool' factor.

Plus we have the tired old Planet of Hats thing going on with him and Mandalorians... 'He looks cool so his entire culture revolves around cosplaying as him!' 'One Hutt/Toydarian made a saving thrown against Influence so now the entire species must be immune to it!'

That action figure was amazingly cool though. As a ten year old, I saved up my SW toy proofs of purchase, and actually mailed away to Palitoy. I even made him a little cloth cloak because I felt he needed one!

And then the movie came out and it broke my heart when I realised this cool-looking guy I'd been fantasising about sucked. But by that time, Carrie's dancer outfit was carbonising my hormones, so I didn't feel too bad about it. Story of my entire life, when I think about it...

Yes, that outfit, The Outfit that Launched Several Million Libidos. I remember seeing that film as a kid when it came out, and while I was already pretty firmly in the camp of "Women body are really neat and I would like to know more", that outfit pretty much solidified it for me.

But I was too sucked up in the fight to really care about Boba dying God there was SO much tension in the theater on release night with that Sarlac scene. I mean, we ALL knew something was going to happen. It was clear, even Jabba knew it. Luke had a trick up his sleeve. But nobody had any idea what his Force powers would actually let him accomplish. And then when it happened, and that soundtrack exploded into the triumphant trumpets as Luke and the other Heroes took action, and the audience lost their minds. My little 7 year old brain kind of shut down with all the awesomeness of it. So when Boba pulled a Wilhelm and died, I didn't even really register it. I was more worried about Lando and Luke and all the others. A badguy died, that's how it's supposed to work in a narrative story, nothing to see here, moving on!

35 minutes ago, ASCI Blue said:

History lesson: The Mandalorians of old (confirmed by Rebels) while they lost, did a damned good job of bringing the Republic and the Jedi to a screeching halt during their war. The Jedi sat around playing grab *** with each other when Revan decided to do something about it (comics and KOTOR game). He semi-broke away from the Jedi order with around half of them and took on the Mandos head to head using their tactics against them. This is confirmed by Canderous Ordo in KOTOR.

I've already addressed this in a later post in this thread, regarding retroactively making them awesome after the fact of Boba.

42 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yes, that outfit, The Outfit that Launched Several Million Libidos. I remember seeing that film as a kid when it came out, and while I was already pretty firmly in the camp of "Women body are really neat and I would like to know more", that outfit pretty much solidified it for me.

Same here, and I'm a girl. In 1977 I just wanted to be her. In 1984, I wanted her...

Quote

A badguy died, that's how it's supposed to work in a narrative story, nothing to see here, moving on!

Same here too. Perhaps the one thing my games lack is a recurring villain, because I focus on the PCs and they kill the bad guys off when they meet. And I think that's how it should be. GM's being protective of their bad guys feels like they're missing the point of role-playing really. It's my job to make my players feel awesome, not engage in power fantasies.

That said, perhaps the one thing I might change is that the MarcyVerse lacks a real 'bad guy'. This was partly intentional, because the focus is on a whole bunch of PC groups and not their adversaries. But there's no Vader or Palpatine or anything (and if there was, they'd have been killed by the players by now). In fact, the two main 'villains' of my setting (for want of a better word) are both PCs, one who's a murderous psychopath and the other who's an amoral manipulator who plays off PCs and NPCs alike in their schemes.

10 minutes ago, Maelora said:

Same here, and I'm a girl. In 1977 I just wanted to be her. In 1984, I wanted her...

No surprise there. Your plumbing has little do on whether or not you found Slave Leia insanely arousing. Interest in HER plumbing is the only requirement

11 minutes ago, Maelora said:

Same here too. Perhaps the one thing my games lack is a recurring villain, because I focus on the PCs and they kill the bad guys off when they meet. And I think that's how it should be. GM's being protective of their bad guys feels like they're missing the point of role-playing really. It's my job to make my players feel awesome, not engage in power fantasies.

That said, perhaps the one thing I might change is that the MarcyVerse lacks a real 'bad guy'. This was partly intentional, because the focus is on a whole bunch of PC groups and not their adversaries. But there's no Vader or Palpatine or anything (and if there was, they'd have been killed by the players by now). In fact, the two main 'villains' of my setting (for want of a better word) are both PCs, one who's a murderous psychopath and the other who's an amoral manipulator who plays off PCs and NPCs alike in their schemes.

I think the trick to a recurring villain, is to not have them be a physical combat villain. It's MUCH easier to have them be a constant thorn in the parties side, if they don't have a chance to hurl all their death at him/her. That's why most recurring villains are the Puppet Master kind of badguy, and only become physical villains near the end of their utility as a villain. I mean look at Palpatine. For the Prequel trilogy, he was simply a scheming politician. Only in Revenge did he actually whip out a saber and start stabbing people. Then again, he was a manipulator in the OT, until Return, when he unleashed on Luke, and was summarily killed.

Given the significantly lethal nature of most PC parties, it's not surprising that anyone that actually goes up against them dies. But, you can always just have a villain be you know...SMART and have some escape plans in place to not die. Cad Bane was pretty good about this IIRC. No reason an NPC Rival/Nemesis couldn't also take time to think "Hmm, these guys I'm messing with have left a trail of corpses behind them, of everyone that has confronted them. Perhaps I should consider some exit strategies since I like not being dead"

Just now, KungFuFerret said:

I think the trick to a recurring villain, is to not have them be a physical combat villain. It's MUCH easier to have them be a constant thorn in the parties side, if they don't have a chance to hurl all their death at him/her. That's why most recurring villains are the Puppet Master kind of badguy, and only become physical villains near the end of their utility as a villain. I mean look at Palpatine. For the Prequel trilogy, he was simply a scheming politician. Only in Revenge did he actually whip out a saber and start stabbing people. Then again, he was a manipulator in the OT, until Return, when he unleashed on Luke, and was summarily killed.
Given the significantly lethal nature of most PC parties, it's not surprising that anyone that actually goes up against them dies. But, you can always just have a villain be you know...SMART and have some escape plans in place to not die. Cad Bane was pretty good about this IIRC. No reason an NPC Rival/Nemesis couldn't also take time to think "Hmm, these guys I'm messing with have left a trail of corpses behind them, of everyone that has confronted them. Perhaps I should consider some exit strategies since I like not being dead"

All good ideas, Mr Ferret. I think most 'bad guys' bore me as characters, to be honest. I want more motivation than 'oppose the PCs/gain power/do it for the Evuls'. Which isn't very Star Wars-y, I know. But we have a bunch of NPCs with their own motivations, who can serve as allies or enemies depending how the PCs feel about their ambitions. I think that's why I like our Jedi Order - they have plenty of members who are good guys and plenty who are total jerks, and even the latter frequently have a good point to make.

The aforementioned Boba Fett is someone I've used before, and I made him very genre-savvy. He doesn't take on Sensitives (all those save or die powers!) and he doesn't cross the protagonists. He makes a good living taking down mid-range targets, and he's a savvy survivor who believes 'there's no credits in feeding an ego'. He might be willing to team up with a PC Bounty Hunter to take someone down, though...

Thrawn is more of a valued adversary for the PC who runs the Alliance faction. They meet up on neutral ground and discuss the unfolding Galactic War like two chess players dissecting a really good game. They seem to like each other and enjoy the challenge they present to one another.

Savan and Black Sun are more like traditional Bond villains, but most of the PCs either work for her or owe her favours, or belong to a faction that's allied with hers. She's absolutely the game's 'puppet master' but by and large the PCs interests are aligned with hers.

Weirdly, the ex-Sith in charge of the Robot Rebellion is probably the nearest thing they have to a real adversary, and he's unlikely to survive the end of the story arc.

2 minutes ago, Maelora said:

snip

Oh I'm not suggesting just make For the Lulz kind of villains, by all means give them genuine motivations for why they are doing what they are doing. I'm just talking about the issue you mentioned, about it feeling strange to try and save a badguy for later. I was just saying that you don't have to think of it from the Meta level of "But I really like this badguy and want to keep using him to mess with you guys!" , and look at it from the viewpoint of the NPC themselves. While in your game, they might be a throwaway place holder for your party to encounter. To Them this is their one life, and they don't want to die, so they will do what most living things do when threatened, and plan and scheme and work their way out of dying, with everything they've got. Or, if they are smart, make plans to help insure that eventuality doesn't happen. Whether they are a fleshed out villain like Nicodemus from Dresden Files, or a mustache twirling loon like Palpatine, is a separate issue. Both can be ready with escape plans when the party comes storming into their stronghold looking for blood.

Absolutely, KFF.

Always remember that the villain is the hero of his own story.

Doctor Doom does right by the people of Latveria, wants to rescue his mother’s soul from d@mnation, and avenge himself on that cursed Reed Richards.

Magneto wants to end persecution of mutantkind...by any means necessary.

Maybe the best example, is Walking Dead (print and televised). The Governor and Negan are both horrible murderers. But we’ve seen the main characters do some awful things, too. If the story had followed the Governor or Negan from the start, we’d probably be cheering for them and against the current protagonists.

2 hours ago, Maelora said:

That action figure was amazingly cool though. As a ten year old, I saved up my SW toy proofs of purchase, and actually mailed away to Palitoy.

Same here; and I think I got my Bossk the same way.

My mind is kinda hazy on things that far back, but wasn't the Boba Fett mail order actually available before ESB was even released? I seem to recall everyone raving about him despite not even knowing who the heck he was; though it might be mis-remembering because I didn't get to see ESB until the summer after its initial release (my dad apparently thought I was too young for electrical torture and animal evisceration).

6 minutes ago, Vorzakk said:

My mind is kinda hazy on things that far back, but wasn't the Boba Fett mail order actually available before ESB was even released? I seem to recall everyone raving about him despite not even knowing who the heck he was; though it might be mis-remembering because I didn't get to see ESB until the summer after its initial release (my dad apparently thought I was too young for electrical torture and animal evisceration).

Yes, the Fett action figure came out before ESB. I had mine before, and had no idea who he was, aside from what was on the packaging (and the figure - a missile! A jet pack! Weapons on his wrists! Etc.).

I think he was in a cartoon special before ESB, too, but either I missed it or it was after the toy came out.

9 minutes ago, Vorzakk said:

Same here; and I think I got my Bossk the same way.

My mind is kinda hazy on things that far back, but wasn't the Boba Fett mail order actually available before ESB was even released? I seem to recall everyone raving about him despite not even knowing who the heck he was; though it might be mis-remembering because I didn't get to see ESB until the summer after its initial release (my dad apparently thought I was too young for electrical torture and animal evisceration).

Yep. He certainly was.

1 minute ago, coyote6 said:

Yes, the Fett action figure came out before ESB. I had mine before, and had no idea who he was, aside from what was on the packaging (and the figure - a missile! A jet pack! Weapons on his wrists! Etc.).

I think he was in a cartoon special before ESB, too, but either I missed it or it was after the toy came out.

Yep. He appeared in a cartoon short during the (in)famous Star Wars Holiday Special.

Regarding bad guys, I once played an old wizened customs official and information trader on that role. He was presented as an old, very very nice granpa of several dozen children in a space station where the PC were constantly going. They loved him, as that old guy everybody liked and that was respected by the community and loved by children (he had sweets! And tells stories!). After they made the space station their home, I turned him into an information broker. And information brokers deal in information. And reputations. A reputation is a powerful tool. He was quite the influencer here.

Are you going to kill grandpa?

My group is formed by really nice social people, so it always amazes me that they become murder hobbos at the table and struggle with social challenges. Buy that happens. Well then, social challenges it is

On 10/24/2017 at 3:10 PM, kkuja said:

I liked the mandaloreans in Protector of Concord Dawn, as they were more than one dimensional.

I find it interesting that you liked the Mandalorians in that episode, as those were just about as Traviss-y mandalorians as I've seen Disney do. Granted, they weren't Jedi killing machines, but the feel was there.

FYI, I am someone who has read the books.

I have not read them, and I have no idea on the EU image on them at all. They sounded like they disagreed with politics innmandalore and rebelled against the government.

3 hours ago, Vestij Jai Galaar said:

I find it interesting that you liked the Mandalorians in that episode, as those were just about as Traviss-y mandalorians as I've seen Disney do. Granted, they weren't Jedi killing machines, but the feel was there.

FYI, I am someone who has read the books.

That is interesting, and kind of bonus for the books. It was while ago when I watched that episode, but my recollection is that it wasn't as bad I feared. But as said, my knowledge about Mandalorians is very limited, and my opinion is based more on my personal prejudices than how Mandalorians are actually depicted. Thank you.

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 7:50 PM, BronzeDog said:

I've recently taken the GM reins of a game taking place in the Rebels era, and I think the original GM and our Mando PC have done something that leaves a lot of wiggle room, and fits what I've seen of Canon: The Mandolorian culture is at a low point, and is having something of an identity crisis. Our Mando PC has family issues over KOTOR-era tradition versus adaptation, with him worried the culture's going to die out if they don't find nobler reasons to fight, and thus earn the respect of the galactic community. It's lead to an interesting friendship with my Bothan mostly-pacifist, who's got similar issues with his overly manipulative clan.

I think that is a sophisticated take because the era would have an impact on the Mandalorian Culture. I could see a serious schism in their culture forming with different factions. In our current game two of the characters are part of a faction that wants to go back to the old ways of pan-species Mandalorians, which puts them automatically somewhat in a bad position with the Empire. The characters themselves have their own opposing attitudes toward that notion of what their culture is, so there is even more difference on the personal level with those characters. I personally like the idea of different types of Mandalorians. Aggressive War-Like Mandos, Imperial Mandos, Noble Savage Mandos, Modernity Mandos, etc.

On 10/25/2017 at 10:46 PM, Nytwyng said:

Absolutely, KFF.

Always remember that the villain is the hero of his own story.

Doctor Doom does right by the people of Latveria, wants to rescue his mother’s soul from d@mnation, and avenge himself on that cursed Reed Richards.

Magneto wants to end persecution of mutantkind...by any means necessary.

Maybe the best example, is Walking Dead (print and televised). The Governor and Negan are both horrible murderers. But we’ve seen the main characters do some awful things, too. If the story had followed the Governor or Negan from the start, we’d probably be cheering for them and against the current protagonists.

I looked up Magneto, and he's the oddest mando I've ever seen. Some kind of sith, apparently...?

On 10/27/2017 at 6:30 AM, MonCal said:

I have not read them, and I have no idea on the EU image on them at all. They sounded like they disagreed with politics innmandalore and rebelled against the government.

That's it in a nutshell. They function kinda like a religious group: beginning unified by purpose, stagnate, bog down, infight, schism… the works.

There is so much going on in this thread. Everyone loves/hates mandalorians for different reasons, and I was simultaneously terrified/excited to write about them in Friends Like These. But, why exactly is Boba Fett (and by extension, anyone else in mandalorian armor) cool? Why did fans latch onto him? There is a list!

1.) Awesome character design. This is clearly the top thing. That armor straight up looks awesome.
2.) A bit of mystery. We can't see his face. We don't learn much about him in the classic trilogy. We only known he looks cool, and he's exceedingly competent.
3.) And he IS competent. He is able to locate the Millennium Falcon when the entire Imperial fleet cannot, and is able to track them down to Cloud City, which the other bounty hunters were unable to do. When Chewbacca warns Han of Fett's presence, Han Solo reacts. Han Solo who tries to play it cool and downplays his own fear, shows on-screen concern. He considered Fett a serious threat. And he is, he gives Skywalker a handful when the two fight. Han's lucky hit on the jetpack that sends him into the sarlacc notwithstanding.

On 10/25/2017 at 5:02 PM, Donovan Morningfire said:

That's pretty much it in a nutshell as to why all the Mando-love.

Fett was "cool" because he looked cool, sounded cool, was mysterious, and the fact that Vader pretty much singled him out for a direct order ("No disintegrations!") made folks think there had to be a really cool story about this one guy, even though he really didn't do anything on screen to warrant his memetic badass status.

Add in the EU tidbit of making him a proper Mandalorian (rather than a pretender wearing their armor as I believe was the original intention with the character), and it mostly just snowballed from there, with Traviss making the final leap and turning them into the GFFA's version of Trek's Klingons, complete with a made-up language and a cultural superiority complex the size of the first Death Star.

You say all that like it's a bad thing.

Just as an aside that I'm 90% sure I haven't mentioned in this thread, I and a friend of mine came up with a particularly awful variation of Mandalorian culture not too long ago while talking about KOTOR. I haven't played the game, but he has, and it's one of his favorite works in the whole of Star Wars - if I'm not mistaken, Canderous Ordo is his favorite Mandalorian.

Anyway, the conversation started with the horrific monsters on Dxun, and we eventually got onto a tangent about clan Ordo's purpose on Dxun, which was apparently to shoot scary monsters for gits & shiggles. Then, I said that fateful line that led to a permanent headcanon for both of our plans for running games in a galaxy far, far away. "Man, sounds like a Mandalorian wet dream; is there any particular reason clan Ordo would leave, or are they still living on Dxun?" This train of thought quickly spiraled out of control when we realized the cultural implications of a Mandalorian clan living on a planet seeped in dark side energies & crawling with Naddite cultists for a few millennia. With a constant influx of visiting big game hunters with more skill than sense to keep the gene pool fresh.

Now, whenever we run any kind of game that involves Onderon, Nadd city on Dxun has a very strong Mandalorian presence which has intermingled with the local beast riders and Naddites to produce a particularly barbarous offshoot of Mando clans. I think of them as adrenaline junkies with a tendency to commit war crimes for money, and who have devolved into an almost primal type of nationalism. They have largely become a type of warrior aristocracy whose traditions are centered around dominating the brutal fauna of Dxun, both as hunters and beast riders. At least, that's the end conclusion I've drawn. My friend likely has a different interpretation of them, given that I haven't spoken with him about it in a while.

On 27.10.2017 at 5:06 AM, Vestij Jai Galaar said:

I find it interesting that you liked the Mandalorians in that episode, as those were just about as Traviss-y mandalorians as I've seen Disney do. Granted, they weren't Jedi killing machines, but the feel was there.

FYI, I am someone who has read the books.

The Concord Dawn mandos fit perfectly fine within the descriptions of the old ways during TCW as well. The camp was super similar to the death watch ones as well. They just lacked bitterness and jedi hate of Pre Vizsla. And besides, Mando Clans and Mando Warrior culture pre-dates Traviss. No one had issues with that before Traviss got onto the mando hype train, in many ways Traviss Mandos are a whole species of Mary Sues ;-)

12 hours ago, Degenerate Mind said:

You say all that like it's a bad thing.

Depends upon the extreme to which a thing is taken.

Sadly, many of the die-hard Fett/Mandalorian fans I've encountered have taken to an extreme, and were on board with Karen Traviss' view that Mandos were the true heroes of the galaxy and that the Jedi were just a bunch of preening posers.

56 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Depends upon the extreme to which a thing is taken.

Sadly, many of the die-hard Fett/Mandalorian fans I've encountered have taken to an extreme, and were on board with Karen Traviss' view that Mandos were the true heroes of the galaxy and that the Jedi were just a bunch of preening posers.

As someone who is a die hard fett and mando fan I don’t even understand how people can take it to those extremes, but if that’s the majority of the fans people are encountering I totally get why so many people hate them.