19 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Was Jango being born on Concord Dawn movie canon? Because that's the only thing that matters for Clone Wars.

Some early canon reference books reiterated his homeworld as Concord Dawn, but Pablo Hidalgo clarified that he only claimed to be from there.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Jango's place of birth was never revealed in the movies or Clone Wars. It was only established in the Dark Horse comics. This is why I specifically stated the Old Lore.

All Filoni really made about it was that Jango and Boba Fett were Bounty Hunters, and thus not necessarily Mandalorian. The old lore published by Dark Horse Comics before the Disney buy-out, established Jango as being from Concord Dawn, a Mandalorian colony. Thus, he could be considered not a "true" Mandalorian by blood. That does not preclude them from being Mandalorian by culture.

You know what, I just really don't care. Think what you want, I don't feel like nitpicking an aspect of Star Wars that I openly dislike, for no other reason than to nitpick it.

6 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Does this not predate Traviss anyway? The Great Sith War and following Mandalorian Wars should pre-date Traviss works iirc. So she basically has nothing left to show.

Yes, you're right in that those wars predate Traviss's work. The full parenthesis was a gripe I had specifically with TCW: for several of the arcs (Mandalorian, Maul, and Dathomir) it seemed the show's creators had an original idea, then tacked on the name of an existing thing in the Star Wars universe. It really pissed me off because it was them basically saying "that's a nice idea you have there, but I can do it better."

As for Traviss's contributions, it wasn't really in original ideas. Now that I've had more time to think about it, everything people love about her Mandalorians was already elsewhere. The language was invented for the lyrics of the Republic Commando soundtrack, the absolute equality was there in the Tales of the Old Republic comics, and the focus on clan was a definite vibe in any story featuring Mandos but was a background detail. What Traviss did - and did well - was blend it all together into a coherent culture while building on the foundations others had made.

2 hours ago, SavageBob said:

I just don't personally get the Mandolorian worship.

Because Star Trek has the Klingons and Star Wars must do everything better than Star Trek!

2 minutes ago, Ireul said:

Yes, you're right in that those wars predate Traviss's work. The full parenthesis was a gripe I had specifically with TCW: for several of the arcs (Mandalorian, Maul, and Dathomir) it seemed the show's creators had an original idea, then tacked on the name of an existing thing in the Star Wars universe. It really pissed me off because it was them basically saying "that's a nice idea you have there, but I can do it better."

As for Traviss's contributions, it wasn't really in original ideas. Now that I've had more time to think about it, everything people love about her Mandalorians was already elsewhere. The language was invented for the lyrics of the Republic Commando soundtrack, the absolute equality was there in the Tales of the Old Republic comics, and the focus on clan was a definite vibe in any story featuring Mandos but was a background detail. What Traviss did - and did well - was blend it all together into a coherent culture while building on the foundations others had made.

Those ideas in Clone Wars ARE the original ideas. Stuff like the peaceful Mandalorians, the witches, the weird Force magic, etc all came from Lucas. It's the Expanded Universe that used existing names and tacked on new ideas.

2 minutes ago, Ireul said:

Yes, you're right in that those wars predate Traviss's work. The full parenthesis was a gripe I had specifically with TCW: for several of the arcs (Mandalorian, Maul, and Dathomir) it seemed the show's creators had an original idea, then tacked on the name of an existing thing in the Star Wars universe. It really pissed me off because it was them basically saying "that's a nice idea you have there, but I can do it better."

I interpreted it pretty much the same way. But for two reasons, the insight brought a smile to my face rather than a frown.

1) They were right. It was better.

2) It seemed like fitting comeuppance to someone with the kind of cavalier attitude to established canon Traviss had.

3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Those ideas in Clone Wars ARE the original ideas. Stuff like the peaceful Mandalorians, the witches, the weird Force magic, etc all came from Lucas. It's the Expanded Universe that used existing names and tacked on new ideas.

The Nightsisters and Dathomir originate from The Courtship of Princess Leia. The original OT story notes from Lucas stated the Mandalorians were a group of supercommandos, but after the idea was scrapped the ESB novelization called them "a group of evil warriors defeated by the Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars." Further, the stuff in The Clone Wars is as original as the stuff in the Young Jedi Knights series; it's other people building off Lucas's work. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Clone_Wars_(TV_series) checking the crew section shows Lucas as only an executive producer and creative guide, not a writer.

17 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

I interpreted it pretty much the same way. But for two reasons, the insight brought a smile to my face rather than a frown.

1) They were right. It was better.

2) It seemed like fitting comeuppance to someone with the kind of cavalier attitude to established canon Traviss had.

It worked in the end for the Mandalorian arc, but the Maul arc had to bring back a character we saw die with no explanation just to give Obi-Wan a personal nemesis. The Nightsisters arc took Asajj Ventress (complete with her original backstory only slightly modified), tied her to an EU element completely unrelated to her, and wiped a species out of canon all in 3 episodes. Furthermore, the EU element was in-name only, so they replaced it for no reason.

Those 3 arcs were symptoms of an attitude the writers had that was to appeal to nostalgia by tying tons of existing stuff together, but essentially ended up as "replace, don't expand."

5 minutes ago, Ireul said:

Further, the stuff in The Clone Wars is as original as the stuff in the Young Jedi Knights series; it's other people building off Lucas's work. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Clone_Wars_(TV_series) checking the crew section shows Lucas as only an executive producer and creative guide, not a writer.

You know Filoni answered to Lucas? And that Lucas was extensively involved in the writing and production of the show? There are tons of interviews and featurettes with Filoni where he talks about how Lucas changed this or that or came up with episode ideas or produced old concepts from a binder full of notes that were decades old. All of that is well-established.

7 minutes ago, Ireul said:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Clone_Wars_(TV_series) checking the crew section shows Lucas as only an executive producer and creative guide, not a writer.

Clone Wars voice actor Sam Witwer has stated that many clone wars ideas came from Lucas. Including the whole Marth Maul arch. Witwer stated those things in Order66 podcast, I don't remember episode numbers (one episode might have been with Sam Steward, maybe Battle of Sams). I'm not denying the what you said, only adding to tidbit of knowledge (which may not be part of official truth, but still is spoken by person close to production), which may be a truth from certain point of view.

7 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

You know Filoni answered to Lucas? And that Lucas was extensively involved in the writing and production of the show? There are tons of interviews and featurettes with Filoni where he talks about how Lucas changed this or that or came up with episode ideas or produced old concepts from a binder full of notes that were decades old. All of that is well-established.

Yes, I knew Filoni answered to Lucas, but seeing as I never was a big TCW fan, I didn't delve too deep into the design process.

7 minutes ago, kkuja said:

Clone Wars voice actor Sam Witwer has stated that many clone wars ideas came from Lucas. Including the whole Marth Maul arch. Witwer stated those things in Order66 podcast, I don't remember episode numbers (one episode might have been with Sam Steward, maybe Battle of Sams). I'm not denying the what you said, only adding to tidbit of knowledge (which may not be part of official truth, but still is spoken by person close to production), which may be a truth from certain point of view.

...Yeah, that sounds like Lucas alright. Kill a character, only to special edition his fate later.

Thank you both for the additional info.

30 minutes ago, Ireul said:

Yes, I knew Filoni answered to Lucas, but seeing as I never was a big TCW fan, I didn't delve too deep into the design process.

...Yeah, that sounds like Lucas alright. Kill a character, only to special edition his fate later.

Thank you both for the additional info.

James Arnold Taylor (Obiwan in TCW) has a lot of interviews on YouTube with the voice actors and G Lucas was apparently very involved in The Clone Wars and Jet Lucas apparently has also been quoted as saying The Clone Wars was done with the stories it did because the ideas were coming from a man fed up of writing Star Wars (I think the idea being that he wanted to shed fresh light on it). Also its been said as well that it was also meant to flesh out the films as ultimatly the 7 or so hours of film time wasnt enough to tell the full story.

Im probably one of the few people that like the baseline stats of Mando humans in game. They make for an ideal battle hardened type character or the pacificistic knowledgeable type quite well, and it only becomes a detriment if you want to gun for the 3/3/3/3/2/2 range of characteristics, which itself is only possible if you want to take +10 xp at creation. Any other human stat range is doable with Mando Human. The 333322 stat range IMO is one of the worst choices preferring 333222 with some left over for talents and skills, or 432222 again with a little left over. Losing 1 3 for a 2 is hardly detrimental.

I started a Nikto Warden with 3 2 2 2 3 1 and didnt feel worse for it in game (esp as with a starting 50 xp I was only 2 sessions from Dedication and had a truckload of good talents from day dot)

43 minutes ago, kkuja said:

Clone Wars voice actor Sam Witwer has stated that many clone wars ideas came from Lucas. Including the whole Marth Maul arch. Witwer stated those things in Order66 podcast, I don't remember episode numbers (one episode might have been with Sam Steward, maybe Battle of Sams). I'm not denying the what you said, only adding to tidbit of knowledge (which may not be part of official truth, but still is spoken by person close to production), which may be a truth from certain point of view.

And he is not alone. Dave Filoni explained as well that the whole force plant idea was from Lukas as well. And the whole team as flabbergasted and had no idea at first how to make that idea work. Which happened more than once in the series.
And btw, Maul's return is less of a stretch than Vader's return to be honest. Or for that matter Obi-Wan's force ghost return. You can call them classic star wars in many ways, it fitting for the darksiders to return driven by their rage, darkside powers and cybernetics long after they should have been dead.
Now getting back to topic, there is an interview with Filoni in which he describes his job interview with Lucas, Filoni came in as a nobody and star wars geek, he got the job and Lucas helped him a lot, they talked a lot about star wars and their ideas and out of this relationship they formed TCW. Hidalgo on top seems to have been the biggest lore master with a lot extra knowledge about the expanded universe and they did indeed tried to use a best from those elements, making it work in their series.

Which basically makes Filoni as the one guy with the biggest claim of being a true successor in spirit of George Lucas, because he actually tried to base his work around the ideas of Lucas and they adapted as well GLs remix and collage attitude, taking with pleasure EU elements and making them into something consistent and new. I don't think that it always worked out, but I would say their track record is **** good, considering that imho even the Binks episodes in TCW are very enjoyable. Rebels seems a little weaker, but that might be the disney channel influence. TCW worked better as young adult show instead of something with children as main target audience and imho this applies to all of star wars to some degree. Some darkness just suits the theme and galaxy, while it still can be just as kids friendly as the original movies (including Ewoks!).

Here something interesting, right the first question: GL to DF: "I am teaching you how to make star wars."

1 hour ago, Ireul said:

Yes, I knew Filoni answered to Lucas, but seeing as I never was a big TCW fan, I didn't delve too deep into the design process.

The show was Lucas's baby. He spent a ton of money on it and was using it to develop ideas he'd been carrying around since the first movie.

On 10/23/2017 at 3:00 PM, Blackbird888 said:

The Acquisition and discontinuation of the EU has caused more problems then people like to think about (like General Grievous and Asajj Ventress not having backstories).

They gave Asajj her backstory back between Clone Wars & Dark Disciple.

Anywho I never got big into the EU having only read a few books when I was young. Since the canon reboot I've been trying to read everything (but failing to keep up to date). I've seen all of Clone Wars & I'm up to date with Rebels. Personally I like the Mandalorian storyline they've developed with the new canon. I thought the original trilogy on its own made Boba Fett to only really have one strength, which is tracking, which is exactly what Darth Vader hired him for in Return of the Jedi. So the job he was hired to do was actually accomplished. Beyond that, he died because of a blind man accidentally hitting him. To find out that he & Jango were not considered Mandalorian in the canon is pretty great IMO because I couldn't reconcile how incompetent the character was from the reputation of his people. Clone Wars continued to show that Boba Fett was great at doing things unless it involved a Force User. He just couldn't win in a contest against them, ever.

17 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

They gave Asajj her backstory back between Clone Wars & Dark Disciple.

Not quite "backstory," but how Ventress and Grievous were first introduced. Star Wars: Clone Wars (the first cartoon) featured both their first appearances, and TCW based interactions off of this.

9 hours ago, Yaccarus said:

Traviss’s work was great

Yes, it is very soft and absorbent in times of emergency. . . .

@Stan Fresh so it seems we aren't the same exact person after all (inside joke) to think someone i meshed with so well on the alien thread would actually like filoni, and use something being lucas's ideas as a defense.
This is truly the feeling of betrayal that only comes when someone you thought you could trust has a different opinion than you.

but in all seriousness, i am not of the opinion that just because it is what lucas wants means it is good, and for me the new eu changing some things that felt like they were key to legends felt off from the start, i like TCW animated a lot, but having the seeing the witches of dathomir that i was first introduced to in the courtship of princess leia reinvented as the night sisters did colour my outlook on it and what it meant for canon, especially as we were going forward with respects to the mandalorians, something that wasn't helped when i saw filoni's statements that he wanted to make mandalorians vikings I.E. white, and then had the white duchess satine denounce the previously canon mandalorians jango, played by a man of color. (a real slap in the face to me as a fan of color who had seen something of himself in the mandalorians.)

I am of a mind with @Ireul on this that the stuff in TCW is as canon as the Jedi academy, but i will clarify that by saying as much as the jedi academy once was. This is not to say that i regard TCW as being equally fanfiction as the legends books, as some people are asserting on here, it is that they were both at different points canon, made with the permission of lucas arts studios, and contracted in order to promote and increase the fan base of star wars, rather than just random people sitting in their basements and making things up and calling it canon, it's canon because it was officially published under the title of star wars.

i'm only dwelling on this because i have enjoyed all the opinions i've seen presented here, and not only because it has provided the gem of a joke from @Desslok pictured above, but also because they have helped me to start to open up to the TCW and Rebels presentations of mandalorians, and to start to enjoy the new mandalorians, which is something i'm very grateful for because i did not enjoy having the sore spot with regards to them and it will help me to portray them better to my players.

However, the one opinion i honestly don't get is the one presented by @KungFuFerret about hating the mandalorians because of the hype, and i want to preface this by saying that i know this is going to come off as more adversarial than i want it to and i hope there are no hard feelings caused by it because i see your other posts around the forums and i like the stuff you put out, but i can see that the thread is winding down and just want to add my thoughts on this before that.

Personally the opinion that the hype is unwarranted leaves me kind of puzzled. Like yes if we existed in a universe where none of the EU ever existed, all we had were the currently canon movies and TV shows, and boba fett was never hyped as an advertising ploy, then i would understand not understanding why some people like the mandalorians and boba fett, and even hating the fact that they do like them, because in the movies he didn't do anything and he was almost comical by how easily he was defeated by han solo bereft of his senses. like dude was taking two setback dice for blindness and easily another for disorientation, like boba had to have a **** dice pool to make that opposed check get through, but we don't exist in that universe. There was a fan desire for more material and because lucas films wanted to capitalize on that they contracted authors to write books about him, which developed into books about mandalorians, which developed into game features, all of these which fueled even more fan desire to see them as they became more developed as a people and an adversary which made them more appealing to capitalize on, and idk, the portrayal of their importance and continued inclusion in the franchise as just being totally fabricated by the fans seems rather disingenuous when you consider that it was a market that was recognized early by the studio and continued to be tapped until today.

although you are absolutely right when you say there is no reason splitting hairs about whether or not jango and boba are mandalorians as present in canon as the current creative lead of the show giving us mandalorians has said that they are not, regardless of how we interpret what characters say in series, but i do hope this is something that will change in the future as the desire to tap the mandalorian and boba fan market persists. funnily enough Jango was never an ethnic mandalorian in the first place being originally from concord dawn in the EU and adopted into a mandalorian family anyway, so i can definitely see that being used as an explanation if they decide to change their minds.

Sorry for the tangent, and again i just want to reiterate how much i enjoyed the directions this thread went in and everything that was discussed here. also shoutout to @MonCal for bringing my favorite bounty hunter from TCW into the conversation, would love to get some actual stats to use for Cad Bane in game.

19 minutes ago, Norr-Saba said:

Personally the opinion that the hype is unwarranted leaves me kind of puzzled. Like yes if we existed in a universe where none of the EU ever existed, all we had were the currently canon movies and TV shows, and boba fett was never hyped as an advertising ploy, then i would understand not understanding why some people like the mandalorians and boba fett,

I never said I didn't understand why people like him, I said it's not really warranted. The basic premise that most people have in my decades of being a fan of Star Wars, is that "Boba Fett is a bad a##, therefore he is cool." I disagree that he is either a bad a##, or cool, because he doesn't actually DO anything that would warrant being cool. He just had a distinctive costume that people fell in love with. They fabricated all of the cool/bada## stuff he did, whole cloth, from their own heads, to justify their stance that he is both cool and bada##. It's similar to the "This statement is true, because it says it is" argument you see many people express in regards to the Bible. And I'm certainly not trying to conflate the two, but saying that someone was originally cool, and using the material created AFTER the character is introduced, doesn't actually justify it. It's retconning.

23 minutes ago, Norr-Saba said:

There was a fan desire for more material and because lucas films wanted to capitalize on that they contracted authors to write books about him, which developed into books about mandalorians, which developed into game features, all of these which fueled even more fan desire to see them as they became more developed as a people and an adversary which made them more appealing to capitalize on, and idk, the portrayal of their importance and continued inclusion in the franchise as just being totally fabricated by the fans seems rather disingenuous when you consider that it was a market that was recognized early by the studio and continued to be tapped until today.

You could say the same thing regarding Ewoks, or Gun Guns, but I don't see many Star Wars fans getting over their sometimes rabid hatred of those two, simply because of the character presented. I'm quite certain someone out there in the fandom verse, and probably pages on Wookiepedia, have fleshed out the Ewoks and Gun Guns, and tried to make them something other than the one representative we have from the movies. Yet the majority of fans are still of the mindset of "screw ewoks and gunguns! They suck because that one guy in the movies sucked!" And when I say "fabricated by the fans" in regards to the Mandos, I'm referring to the EU stuff. I know people like to say that it's all "official" and stuff, but it really isn't. If the internet had been around back when a lot of those books were published, they would simply be fanfiction, nothing more.

And the fact that a company saw it as a tappable market for money, also doesn't actually make anything I've said incorrect. Mandos = Cool/Bada## because Boba, Boba = Cool/Bada## because.......why? Nothing in the movies actually support the level of Space Spartan Murder Gods that the Mandolorians were elevated to, so it HAS to be something entirely fabricated by outside sources, ie. the fans/fanfiction writers that got published. If you have evidence to the contrary from the movies, by all means please provide it and I will happily recant my stance that Boba Fett is an overblown hype machine. And you know, I'll give you that he is "cool" in the basic use of the word. His design was striking, it was memorable, he was used in a menacing and effective way, and that did make him a fairly cool villain. But since nothing about him is actually included in the films, him being Mandalorian, what that even means, what their culture is, etc. None of it, I stand by my statement that his position as the representation of an entire species of people, and that they are all equally bada## as this guy, even though he didn't actually DO anything to warrant that is false. And even if it's now "official" canon, whatever that means when it comes to Star Wars lore (not much in my opinion, pre and post-Disney), it still doesn't mean that the justification for it, is any more valid. It got it's roots in fandom hype inflation, and a company ran with it for $$$. Still silly and lame in my opinion.

And I am now completely done talking about Mandos. I only replied to this because you implied I said something I didn't, and I felt clarification was necessary.

Regardless, I don't care if anyone likes the Mandos or not. The subject of the thread was "what's with all the Mando friction with fans?" And I provided my reason. Like/dislike it. Agree/disagree, I honestly don't care. And I'm not saying that in an argumentative way, it's just simply something that I don't devote any time or concern to. But if you sit down at my table, and start gushing about Mandos, be prepared for me to express my equal, and opposite opinion on the subject

Boba Fett looks cool, IMO. That's the basis of the love. Also, his action figure was badass back in the day.

9 hours ago, Ireul said:

cause Star Trek has the Klingons and Star Wars must do everything better than Star Trek!

As much as I dislike the hippie flower feeling of Star Trek, I have to say that they failed miserably there. Klingons are cooler, And have really cool ships. I would take a bird of prey any day of the week.

Regarding the Fett's being mandalorians or not, I do not care much. And if I did, what the current authors say outside of an official sanctioned medium like a.movie or book is irrelevant. They can tell us that he clone troopers are Russian Romanovs for what I care. As long as it is not official you can call Boba to be an undercover Toydorian and nobody can contradict you.

Clone Wars is an officially sanctioned medium.

really? I thought it was quasi canonical but not a true official medium. I stand c orrected.

Klingons are still cooler than Mandalorians.

5 hours ago, Norr-Saba said:

@Stan Fresh so it seems we aren't the same exact person after all (inside joke) to think someone i meshed with so well on the alien thread would actually like filoni, and use something being lucas's ideas as a defense.
This is truly the feeling of betrayal that only comes when someone you thought you could trust has a different opinion than you.

I think Filoni is a fantastic storyteller, and he put a great deal of thought into every tiny bit of Clone Wars. If you want to know how to tell a story the Star Wars way, you can't do much better than listen to the man explain what he does.

And I don't think I DEFENDED anything about Clone Wars. I just corrected someone on the facts about who did what on the show.

Mind you, I do love the show.

21 hours ago, MonCal said:

Cad Bane ....... He doesn't fly, though.

Humm Are you sure?

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 10:39 AM, KungFuFerret said:

My dislike has nothing to do with Travis' books, though from what I hear about her writing, I know I wouldn't like them.

My dislike of the Mandos is pretty much entirely based on the fan obsession with them for decades, based off one guy who really wasn't as awesome as people like to remember him to be in the films. He didn't actually shoot anyone in all of his on screen appearances, he took a few pot shots at Luke in Empire (while running away), failed to hit him again in Return while he was fighting other people, and got punked by a blind guy with a stick who didn't even know he was there and fell to his death. Yeah, elite warrior of the galaxy my ****

In my opinion, the Glory That Is Boba Fett And the Mandalorian Race, is utter shite, trumped up by fans who have inflated his/their importance based off nothing other than "but he looks so cool!! So he has to be awesome!"

Which makes me just roll my eyes and go "Yeah...uh, no, sorry no."

And the fact that they have since been inflated to "this power that rivaled the Jedi!" is utter fan **** material, that just makes me sigh and remember why I never dove head first into the Star Wars fanfiction that was the EU/Legends.

History lesson: The Mandalorians of old (confirmed by Rebels) while they lost, did a damned good job of bringing the Republic and the Jedi to a screeching halt during their war. The Jedi sat around playing grab *** with each other when Revan decided to do something about it (comics and KOTOR game). He semi-broke away from the Jedi order with around half of them and took on the Mandos head to head using their tactics against them. This is confirmed by Canderous Ordo in KOTOR.

17 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

And the fact that a company saw it as a tappable market for money, also doesn't actually make anything I've said incorrect. Mandos = Cool/Bada## because Boba, Boba = Cool/Bada## because.......why? Nothing in the movies actually support the level of Space Spartan Murder Gods that the Mandolorians were elevated to, so it HAS to be something entirely fabricated by outside sources, ie. the fans/fanfiction writers that got published. If you have evidence to the contrary from the movies, by all means please provide it and I will happily recant my stance that Boba Fett is an overblown hype machine. And you know, I'll give you that he is "cool" in the basic use of the word. His design was striking, it was memorable, he was used in a menacing and effective way, and that did make him a fairly cool villain. But since nothing about him is actually included in the films, him being Mandalorian, what that even means, what their culture is, etc. None of it, I stand by my statement that his position as the representation of an entire species of people, and that they are all equally bada## as this guy, even though he didn't actually DO anything to warrant that is false. And even if it's now "official" canon, whatever that means when it comes to Star Wars lore (not much in my opinion, pre and post-Disney), it still doesn't mean that the justification for it, is any more valid. It got it's roots in fandom hype inflation, and a company ran with it for $$$. Still silly and lame in my opinion.

I think this is very true (and I kinda like them).

Boba Fett looks cool, no question, but he never does much in the movies, and he's really the epitome of a fan-favourite character elevated beyond his real importance, just because of his 'cool' factor.

Plus we have the tired old Planet of Hats thing going on with him and Mandalorians... 'He looks cool so his entire culture revolves around cosplaying as him!' 'One Hutt/Toydarian made a saving thrown against Influence so now the entire species must be immune to it!'

That action figure was amazingly cool though. As a ten year old, I saved up my SW toy proofs of purchase, and actually mailed away to Palitoy. I even made him a little cloth cloak because I felt he needed one!

And then the movie came out and it broke my heart when I realised this cool-looking guy I'd been fantasising about sucked. But by that time, Carrie's dancer outfit was carbonising my hormones, so I didn't feel too bad about it. Story of my entire life, when I think about it...