I recently posted a topic in the GM section asking for advice on running the mandalorians that could combine the old canon and the new and surprisingly I received some rather negative reactions. This was surprising to me as this is th first time I’ve participated in the greater fandom and I had no idea that there were such visceral reactions and opinions on the subject. I had to shut down the conversation in my GM post so that we wouldn’t be dragged off topic but it was intriguing enough that I wanted to have an actual conversation about it.

So my question is, why is this such a polarizing topic to individuals, why is it that some people hate the old mandalorians under travis, why do people love them, what are peoples opinions on the new canon, and is there any way we can reconcile these issues?

im looking forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the subject and hope this doesn’t blow up in my face lol.

I think the argument (if this word even applies) ultimately boils down to people not liking Karen Traviss and how she portrayed her characters. I enjoyed her books and some of what she brought to the Mandalorian culture (specifically the language, also other random things). Maelora hit the nail on the head (imo) in the other thread.

I suppose it comes down to individual taste. *Shrugs*

I'll try to give some highlights from a relatively neutral POV:

4 minutes ago, Norr-Saba said:

why is it that some people hate the old mandalorians under travis

Various reasons, but disliking her writing and characterization is one of them. An accusation levels is she extols the Mandalorian culture and individuals at the expense of others, primarily the Jedi, making them weak, inadequate, or totally misrepresenting individuals to further the rhetoric. Another accusation is her fixation on them at the expense of other concurrent storylines, trying to further subplots featuring the Mandos where it is unnecessary.

And I believe it was her books that killed Mara Jade and Gilad Pellaeon, two popular characters, which definitely didn't win over those fans.

17 minutes ago, Norr-Saba said:

why do people love them

There are still a lot of people who hold the same opinions that Traviss did: Boba Fett was awesome, the Mandalorians are awesome, and the Jedi are doodoo heads. That's an oversimplification, but birds of a feather, and all that.

I consider myself a fan of the Mandalorians, but that's as featured in Knights of the Old Republic and The Sith Lords , which I believe predated Traviss' involvement in writing by a little bit (at least the first game). Canderous Ordo was cool, and presented an interesting picture into the culture, but didn't steal the spotlight or overdo it. They were just another aspect of the Star Wars galaxy.

22 minutes ago, Norr-Saba said:

what are peoples opinions on the new canon

Trick question: opinions on new canon as a whole , or new canon 's depiction of Mandalorians ? I'm guessing the latter

The revision started in The Clone Wars , which still billed as being the EU before the buyout. I don't think they intended to really retcon as much as they did, they just simplified for ease of viewing. I generally prefer the more diversified depiction in TCW. The Acquisition and discontinuation of the EU has caused more problems then people like to think about (like General Grievous and Asajj Ventress not having backstories).

35 minutes ago, Norr-Saba said:

is there any way we can reconcile these issues?

The galaxy is a big place, and there are far-flung groups that still held the traditions, but were separated from the politics of the New Mandalorian/Death Watch conflict. Simple enough for me. But I generally don't play in canon settings, so...

37 minutes ago, Norr-Saba said:

im looking forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the subject and hope this doesn’t blow up in my face lol.

That's like jumping into a bonfire and hoping you don't get burned.

@Blackbird888 pretty much nailed it. To be fair, Star Wars Rebels has gone to great lengths to reintroduce a lot of what Karen Traviss put into Mandalorian culture. Of this, I am glad. I actually loved her depictions of Mandalorians and their culture, and didn't feel that it was at the "expense" of the Jedi or other groups (I'm a die-hard Jedi fan as well). She simply created a very deep and rich culture for this group, something that was sorely needed IMO.

Well, my opinion is easy enough to quantify.

I haven't ready many of the books (because the quality started going down hill fast, so I only read selected writings if they're highly recommended) so I don't have too much to hang my opinion about the Mando's on.

HOWEVER, we have 2-3 Mando PC's and they're all played like backstabbing dishonest homicidal psychopaths, so my opinion is decidedly trending toward the negative end of the spectrum.

39 minutes ago, Mark Caliber said:

Well, my opinion is easy enough to quantify.

I haven't ready many of the books (because the quality started going down hill fast, so I only read selected writings if they're highly recommended) so I don't have too much to hang my opinion about the Mando's on.

HOWEVER, we have 2-3 Mando PC's and they're all played like backstabbing dishonest homicidal psychopaths, so my opinion is decidedly trending toward the negative end of the spectrum.

Then they're definitely playing Mandos wrong, either that or as members of Deathwatch. Mandalorians had a very strict sense of honor.

Blackbird actually said it better than I could.

But I'll offer my $2 too.

I think a lot of people liked the idea of a 'Proud Warrior Race' that weren't easily pigeonholed as heroes or villains, good nor evil, and might be antagonists or protagonists as the situation warranted. Karen Traviss clearly did a lot of work on building their culture, and some liked the nod to same-gender relationships in a genre that is starved of representation for LBGT people.

Her detractors feel she went too far - that they came across as Games Workshop's Space Marines, having to be more awesome and badass than everyone else and becoming 'author's pets'. (Of course, some feel the Jedi had been the canon Mary Sue's since Star Wars began, and were happy to see someone else given a chance to be badass. In a setting where everyone who is anybody has Force powers, the Mandalorians felt like a breath of fresh air to many).

I think she'd have done better dialling it back from 11. I liked them in the Knights of the Old Republic games because they weren't always perfect and they made mistakes. Canderous Ordo gets absolutely owned by Carth of all people in one iconic conversation between the pair, and the 'tough guy' slinks off, humiliated, with his tail between his legs. Little things that that can humanise them, make it clear that they're not flawless or perfect.

When we redid them for our game, the player mostly went with the Traviss concepts, tweaked and amended to fit our setting. They ended up being a Proud Warrior Race Guy species that punched well above their weight and almost conquered the galaxy at a time when the Old Republic was at its strongest. With the campaign beginning its last arc, it's very possible they will finally get what they've always dreamed of - Mandalorian boots on Coruscant soil, honoured warriors in the vanguard of the force that conquers humanity's birthplace. (We had the Taung as a kind of krogan-like species, genetically-evolved from reptiles native to Coruscant. So the Mandalorians finally achieving their dream ultimately honours their long-dead creators too - genetically-modified humans returning to humanity's cradle, having been created for that task by a species that was itself genetically-modified from lesser life-forms by early humans... There's a certain symmetry in that which appeals...)

Interesting topic anyway. There are probably few Star Wars elements that are more controversial... midichlorians, maybe?

Quote

HOWEVER, we have 2-3 Mando PC's

What kind of amuses me is that - mechanically in the FFG game - they are slightly weaker than baseline humans in raw stats (this suited our interpretation of them as a species deliberately created for hyper-specialisation)

So someone wanting to play one takes a small hit to their starting stats for the privilege of being a 'Mandalorian human' over a baseline one...

1 hour ago, Maelora said:

Interesting topic anyway. There are probably few Star Wars elements that are more controversial... midichlorians, maybe?

Nah, I think we all came to an agreement on that subject a while back: Midichlorians is just another word Heroin, at-least that's what Auralnauts told us.

If your midichorian count is below a certain amount; then your out of count. XD Though from a scientific perspective; I would actually be really disappointed if the Jedi hadn't tried to quantify force senstivity in some regard at some point or other. I mean the statement itself was made in a throwaway statement (This kid's midichorlian count is exceedingly high! His connection to the force should exceed our greatest masters e.c.t) thus it is never stated whether midichorlians are directly linked to force sensitivity (e.g. Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his Midichorlian count?!); or merely gather in association (in the same way that it's really difficult to measure dark matter or certain drug compounds, thus usually you would find something else to measure that is associated to it.).

As a scientist, it would likely be a factor of the latter; Midichorlians gather in response to sensitivity and thus while it is certainly a indicator of force sensitivity; it is unlikely to be a measure of power unless an significant difference is detected. Even then; potential doesn't matter without training; Annie was clearly capable of a lot of things an adult wasn't; he won a pod race with a damaged racer and flew in starfighter combat, but it took a life time of training to turn that potential into the tangible ability to break a mans neck. Hence I can gleefully bring up the force gobbling molecules around my table and watch the hardcore nerds crumble in sheer despair! GAHAHAHAHAHAH

*Ahem*

What I find more silly is this entire "Chosen one" Prophecy that is mentioned but never explored; bring balance to the force? Isn't the sith meant to be dead? It's clearly a ham fisted attempt to foreshadow his importance rather then just saying "alright this kid has serious potential, he's done some proper bonkers things, we should at least give him a chance. Ney?"

Besides, Heroin is really difficult to detect within the body, Di-Morphine has a half life of a few minutes and is fairly impotent by itself; it's true asset is to breach the blood brain extremely rapidly to admister morphine directly inside the brain! Thus having heroin in your bloodstream is an incredible scientific achievement! Even if that achievement would likely have drastic consequences on long term health.

As for mandolorians; in all honesty I don't know enough of them to make a informed decision either way. I roleplay a character who is typically underhanded in direct struggles; always planning 5 steps ahead on the board compared to the honourable Mando who insisted on settling things directly with no tricks. It isn't really an aspect of the lore I have much experience with and when my character attempted to impersonate said dead character (to try and settle things with his clan, like he would have wanted to) nor I or my character could really get that idelogy down to a T. Most others would be much more educated in that.

I don't have a problem with Mandalorians in general, I've enjoyed the KOTOR, TCW, and Rebels treatments so far. I just think Traviss and her vision of Mandalorians is in the bottom 10% of the EU, for reasons already outlined.

In game terms, I don't think they need a special stat line, but I have the same opinion of Corellian humans in the game.

5 minutes ago, whafrog said:

In game terms, I don't think they need a special stat line, but I have the same opinion of Corellian humans in the game.

I tend to agree. Mandalorian (like Corellian) is more of a cultural distinction really.

Maelora pretty much got my dislike of Traviss’ Mandos right.

It’s one thing for an author to carve out a niche within a licensed property - Diane Duane did it in Trek, and Stackpole and Allston did it in Star Wars, for example. But something about Traviss’ contributions seemed to be (also as Maelora borrowed from the Spinal Tap gentlemen) dialed up to 11. They became the best of the bestest of the bestestest, overpowered (an argument that some might also fairly level at EU Jedi), and the presentation just a bit overbearing.

If I were to coin a term for it, I’d call it “Ronon Dex Syndrome.” After introducing a complex, compelling bad@ss character in Teal’c on Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis gave us Ronon, with every episode seemingly requiring several “lookit what a bad@ss Ronon is” scenes...scenes that made other characters superfluous, tossing layer after layer after layer of “complexity” bogging the character down more and more.

Additionally, as I understand the story goes, she wasn’t terribly interested in writing for Star Wars, nor in working well with others. Whether true or not, I can’t say, but it certainly seemed that way. By way of example, the Legacy of the Force series installments by other authors would weave together all the various threads of the storyline...then her entries would bring the proceedings to a screeching halt for me, by focusing solely on the Mandalorian thread. Her books seemed to be at least a half-step outside the SW universe.

TL:DR (too late) something about her work and approach just rubbed me the wrong way. I don’t think it’s Mandalorians, period, that are polarizing, but Traviss’ work regarding them.

I love the KOTOR take on the Mandalorians. They're a warrior culture and consider themselves honourable in that they treat those they deem worthy of repect with respect. The kicker is, since they're a warrior culture, what they respect is martial strength. If you are weak, you deserve no respect and get none. And if you are strong enough, you will be respected to the point that the mandalorians will stand in line to have a shot at invading your planet and killing you. Because what can be more honourable and glorious than fighting mandalorians?

Then Traviss comes along and holds these people up as morally superior to the Jedi, who at least aspired to peace and selflessness.

And they have super secret space fighters made by super secret metal cranked out by the village blacksmith or something, but I digress.

I liked the old (pre-Traviss) mandlorians because they were overly proud, violent jackholes. Glossing over their jackholeness made them outright boring and less beleivable. I was delighted by the take TCW had on them, having moved on from their violent past (most likely not to wipe themselves out in constant wars) with the old culture being kept alive by reactionary holdouts like the deathwatch. Also it seemed more than a little like harsh commentary on the glorification of warmongers I feel Traviss dabbled in.

I found the comment about mandalorians who werent honorable must be deathwatch hilarious, because the deathwatch were honourable as rhymes-with-duck. The problem is, as old school mandalorians, they respected martial strength. Pacifists like Satine were beneath contempt. When Maul proved himself stronger, they eagerly fell in line behind him.

It might just be me reading too much into things, but it doesn't seem to far fetched to see some commentary on things like toxic masculinity (even if the mandos themselves are fairly equal opportunity these days) and fascism that glorify strength and war.

Rebels has backpedalled a bit on this but I'll have to adress that later after rewatching a few episodes to refresh my memory, and this post is already to long for something I typed on my phone in bed rather than going to sleep.

8 hours ago, Norr-Saba said:

why is it that some people hate the old mandalorians under travis

For me, two reasons. One, she's a crap writer (which is hardly an exclusive club on the Star Wars bookshelf) and two she Mary Sued the **** out of the entire race. Bigger, faster, stronger, more powerful, sexier and just darn better than those stupid Jedi.

8 hours ago, Norr-Saba said:

what are peoples opinions on the new canon, and is there any way we can reconcile these issues?

Disney sweeping away the cluster-f that is old continuity is a glorious thing. Taking the massive continuity knot of bounty hunter/mercenary/klingon/supercommando/batman/friend of the jedi/enemy of the jedi/whatever-the-hell-they-are-this-week mess and throwing it out is the best thing that ever happened to them.

I've recently taken the GM reins of a game taking place in the Rebels era, and I think the original GM and our Mando PC have done something that leaves a lot of wiggle room, and fits what I've seen of Canon: The Mandolorian culture is at a low point, and is having something of an identity crisis. Our Mando PC has family issues over KOTOR-era tradition versus adaptation, with him worried the culture's going to die out if they don't find nobler reasons to fight, and thus earn the respect of the galactic community. It's lead to an interesting friendship with my Bothan mostly-pacifist, who's got similar issues with his overly manipulative clan.

9 hours ago, Norr-Saba said:

why is it that some people hate the old mandalorians under travis, why do people love them

Because Traviss is a crap writer. She tends to view issues in black and white and will derail characterization to push that view. Her Halo books are perfect proof of that. In the Fall of Reach Dr. Halsey is a mother figure to the SPARTANs, can tell who's who just by body language, cares enough about them to refer to them by name, and continually justifies what she did to them to herself (indicating regret). In Traviss' books Dr. Halsey shows no regrets about kidnapping them as children or replacing them with rapidly grown clones that would die in a few years. Worse, she treats them as tools and neglects them so badly they turn on her.

Yet despite all that, Traviss had some good ideas. The language, focus on family, and equality of all in the culture regardless of sex and species, for example, were all good expansions on the crusading culture from the KotOR series. The codes that defined their honor were a bit hit-or-miss, but also led to a morally grey group that could be heroes or villains; something the other groups like the Jedi or Sith can't aspire to be without compromising their codes.

9 hours ago, Norr-Saba said:

what are peoples opinions on the new canon, and is there any way we can reconcile these issues?

Personally I hated the TCW spin on them as it seemed the writers just took an existing EU name for their original creation (seriously, the culture accepting of warriors regardless of species were all blonde, white humans?!) as well as the fact the pacificists were always in the right while the warriors were just terrorists. However, with the late TCW additions (showing corruption in the New Mandalorians/a code of honor in Death Watch) and the addition of less extreme warrior clans in Rebels, I've warmed to the canon Mandalorians. Only thing I still dislike is the fact the culture who dislikes Jedi follow a leader partially because they wield a Jedi weapon.

Easiest way is to follow in the footsteps of Rebels: while Death Watch and the New Mandalorians duked it out for control of Mandalore,other warrior clans set up shop on other worlds in Mando space.

8 hours ago, Blackbird888 said:

Various reasons, but disliking her writing and characterization is one of them. An accusation levels is she extols the Mandalorian culture and individuals at the expense of others, primarily the Jedi, making them weak, inadequate, or totally misrepresenting individuals to further the rhetoric. Another accusation is her fixation on them at the expense of other concurrent storylines, trying to further subplots featuring the Mandos where it is unnecessary.

this is an opinion i keep seeing people repeat, that travis's depiction of the mandalorians neutered the jedi, so is this a case of legitimate depowering of jedi in favor of mandalorians, is it people getting upset that the development of a non-jedi group prevented jedi from being an all powerful ubermensch that they were imagined to be, or is it a combination of both?

8 hours ago, Blackbird888 said:

And I believe it was her books that killed Mara Jade and Gilad Pellaeon, two popular characters, which definitely didn't win over those fans.

is this so big a deal that it could affect people's opinions so greatly, admittedly i was never a great fan of mara so maybe i don't get how that seems like a big deal, but coming off of george r.r. martins books where everyone seems to die it didn't seem like that big of a deal, not to mention it was jascen who killed her and not a mando.

8 hours ago, Blackbird888 said:

There are still a lot of people who hold the same opinions that Traviss did: Boba Fett was awesome, the Mandalorians are awesome, and the Jedi are doodoo heads. That's an oversimplification, but birds of a feather, and all that.

does it have to be one or the other though, jedi and mandalorians can't both be worthwhile?

8 hours ago, Blackbird888 said:

I consider myself a fan of the Mandalorians, but that's as featured in Knights of the Old Republic and The Sith Lords , which I believe predated Traviss' involvement in writing by a little bit (at least the first game). Canderous Ordo was cool, and presented an interesting picture into the culture, but didn't steal the spotlight or overdo it. They were just another aspect of the Star Wars galaxy.

i also loved the kotor mandalorians, but since i could never afford an xbox or a computer to play them on until years after they came out, so i didn't actually encounter them until after i was familiar with karen's version of the mandalorians, which honestly likely colors my opinion on the matter, but i never saw an issue with the mandalorians being some what different 3000 years before, i honestly would have been more surprised had they been exactly the same.

8 hours ago, Blackbird888 said:

The revision started in The Clone Wars , which still billed as being the EU before the buyout. I don't think they intended to really retcon as much as they did, they just simplified for ease of viewing. I generally prefer the more diversified depiction in TCW. The Acquisition and discontinuation of the EU has caused more problems then people like to think about (like General Grievous and Asajj Ventress not having backstories).

The galaxy is a big place, and there are far-flung groups that still held the traditions, but were separated from the politics of the New Mandalorian/Death Watch conflict. Simple enough for me. But I generally don't play in canon settings, so...

thats very reasonable, and honestly i think having remnant pockets is very interesting.

3 hours ago, Maelora said:

I think a lot of people liked the idea of a 'Proud Warrior Race' that weren't easily pigeonholed as heroes or villains, good nor evil, and might be antagonists or protagonists as the situation warranted. Karen Traviss clearly did a lot of work on building their culture, and some liked the nod to same-gender relationships in a genre that is starved of representation for LBGT people.

Her detractors feel she went too far - that they came across as Games Workshop's Space Marines, having to be more awesome and badass than everyone else and becoming 'author's pets'. (Of course, some feel the Jedi had been the canon Mary Sue's since Star Wars began, and were happy to see someone else given a chance to be badass. In a setting where everyone who is anybody has Force powers, the Mandalorians felt like a breath of fresh air to many).

I think she'd have done better dialling it back from 11. I liked them in the Knights of the Old Republic games because they weren't always perfect and they made mistakes. Canderous Ordo gets absolutely owned by Carth of all people in one iconic conversation between the pair, and the 'tough guy' slinks off, humiliated, with his tail between his legs. Little things that that can humanise them, make it clear that they're not flawless or perfect.

you know this really captures it for me, i loved that mandalorians were presented as this kind of third power in the galaxy that was a wild card, a sign that you didn't need to be a force user to be special in a setting where everyone interpreted it as only force users mattering, despite the fact that in the original trilogy we really only had two force users that did anything, and their actions didn't diminish the value or accomplishments of the other non-force users, and of course i loved the nod to diversity that they had.

but i am starting to think that they could be reigned in a bit to make them a bit more realistic, like i don't see any reason why we can't keep all the good plot that was developed about them from both the old eu and the new canon while doing away with the mary sueness, dialing it back from 11, which is basically what has happened with the new movies making it impossible for any of our known eu past the liberation of mandalore to now be possible.

3 hours ago, Maelora said:

When we redid them for our game, the player mostly went with the Traviss concepts, tweaked and amended to fit our setting. They ended up being a Proud Warrior Race Guy species that punched well above their weight and almost conquered the galaxy at a time when the Old Republic was at its strongest. With the campaign beginning its last arc, it's very possible they will finally get what they've always dreamed of - Mandalorian boots on Coruscant soil, honoured warriors in the vanguard of the force that conquers humanity's birthplace. (We had the Taung as a kind of krogan-like species, genetically-evolved from reptiles native to Coruscant. So the Mandalorians finally achieving their dream ultimately honours their long-dead creators too - genetically-modified humans returning to humanity's cradle, having been created for that task by a species that was itself genetically-modified from lesser life-forms by early humans... There's a certain symmetry in that which appeals...)

Interesting topic anyway. There are probably few Star Wars elements that are more controversial... midichlorians, maybe?

What kind of amuses me is that - mechanically in the FFG game - they are slightly weaker than baseline humans in raw stats (this suited our interpretation of them as a species deliberately created for hyper-specialisation)

So someone wanting to play one takes a small hit to their starting stats for the privilege of being a 'Mandalorian human' over a baseline one...

honestly love the way you reimagined them, after reading what you wrote about it in the other thread i know that i'm going to use elements of this when i present it to my players

2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Maelora pretty much got my dislike of Traviss’ Mandos right.

It’s one thing for an author to carve out a niche within a licensed property - Diane Duane did it in Trek, and Stackpole and Allston did it in Star Wars, for example. But something about Traviss’ contributions seemed to be (also as Maelora borrowed from the Spinal Tap gentlemen) dialed up to 11. They became the best of the bestest of the bestestest, overpowered (an argument that some might also fairly level at EU Jedi), and the presentation just a bit overbearing.

If I were to coin a term for it, I’d call it “Ronon Dex Syndrome.” After introducing a complex, compelling bad@ss character in Teal’c on Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis gave us Ronon, with every episode seemingly requiring several “lookit what a bad@ss Ronon is” scenes...scenes that made other characters superfluous, tossing layer after layer after layer of “complexity” bogging the character down more and more.

that seems to be the sentiment that i am getting, that it's not that they were well developed its that traviss just kept having them one up themselves to the point that it became ridiculous, and i agree the same thing was done with the jedi with the exception that you had many authors one upping the jedi since everyone wanted to write about them and just karen one upping the mandalorians since that's mostly all she wrote about.

again i think that this means its a bit of a good thing that the old eu is no longer canon because it means that we can have the cultural background without the hangups of the writing making them too much.

2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Additionally, as I understand the story goes, she wasn’t terribly interested in writing for Star Wars, nor in working well with others. Whether true or not, I can’t say, but it certainly seemed that way. By way of example, the Legacy of the Force series installments by other authors would weave together all the various threads of the storyline...then her entries would bring the proceedings to a screeching halt for me, by focusing solely on the Mandalorian thread. Her books seemed to be at least a half-step outside the SW universe.

TL:DR (too late) something about her work and approach just rubbed me the wrong way. I don’t think it’s Mandalorians, period, that are polarizing, but Traviss’ work regarding them.

to be honest i had the reverse effect, i was always wanting to see what would happen next with the mandos in that series and since no one wrote about them except for travis that meant that i had to read through two whole books each time before i could hear about them again.

i'm honestly starting to think that the biggest issue with the mandalorians is in part the fact that traviss was considered the authority on them to the point that she was the only one to write about them and that they were basically the only thing she wrote about, meaning that we never got anything but her own writing on the subject which was problematic as people have pointed out.

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

I love the KOTOR take on the Mandalorians. They're a warrior culture and consider themselves honourable in that they treat those they deem worthy of repect with respect. The kicker is, since they're a warrior culture, what they respect is martial strength. If you are weak, you deserve no respect and get none. And if you are strong enough, you will be respected to the point that the mandalorians will stand in line to have a shot at invading your planet and killing you. Because what can be more honourable and glorious than fighting mandalorians?

Then Traviss comes along and holds these people up as morally superior to the Jedi, who at least aspired to peace and selflessness.

And they have super secret space fighters made by super secret metal cranked out by the village blacksmith or something, but I digress.

I liked the old (pre-Traviss) mandalorians because they were overly proud, violent jackholes. Glossing over their jackholeness made them outright boring and less believable. I was delighted by the take TCW had on them, having moved on from their violent past (most likely not to wipe themselves out in constant wars) with the old culture being kept alive by reactionary holdouts like the deathwatch. Also it seemed more than a little like harsh commentary on the glorification of warmongers I feel Traviss dabbled in.

as i said before i also love KOTOR mandalorians, they were extremely interesting and compelling for what they were, but what they were was substantially limited, imo. I associate the discrepancies with the fact that during the time of the Old Republic the last of the Taung still lived and then died during that time period, meaning that from that point on they developed as a majority human culture no longer directly influenced by their warlike Taung progenitors, and honestly as i said it would be more odd to me if they had stayed the same during those 3000 years between then and now.

i also really appreciate the rise of the pacifist faction in mandalorian society, this to me is very much a part of the cultural development, and viewing the mandalorians as an ethno-religious cultural group as i do, i see it as part of the development of different sects/ethnicities within mandalorian cultural society, with the different ones being new mandalorians, old mandalorians, and deathwatch.

I do agree that the recurring macguffins that kept being included to make them super powers was weird, thankyou for sharing

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

I found the comment about mandalorians who weren't honorable must be deathwatch hilarious, because the deathwatch were honourable as rhymes-with-duck. The problem is, as old school mandalorians, they respected martial strength. Pacifists like Satine were beneath contempt. When Maul proved himself stronger, they eagerly fell in line behind him.

It might just be me reading too much into things, but it doesn't seem to far fetched to see some commentary on things like toxic masculinity (even if the mandos themselves are fairly equal opportunity these days) and fascism that glorify strength and war.

Rebels has backpedalled a bit on this but I'll have to adress that later after rewatching a few episodes to refresh my memory, and this post is already to long for something I typed on my phone in bed rather than going to sleep.

this is true, death watch definitely had their own sense of honor that they held to, and i'm starting to think of them as an effort to resurrect the warlike nature of the ancient Taung mandalorians in direct response to the formation of the pacifist new mandalorians. it is in fact reactionary, and and extreme in the same way that the holdout would have viewed the pacifists as extreme, but that does not mean that they are necessarily morally bereft, just morally different, and most likely they would not be the murder hobos that someone associated them with.

as for the toxic masculinity and the fascism i would love to hear more of your thoughts on this, especially considering what we know about the dominant government in the SW galaxy, and the fact that when the new mandalorians took power they seem to have exiled everyone who disagreed with them according to the fantasy flight canon, although i do not believe that the new mandalorians would have taken those steps based on their characterization in the rebels series.

i am also planning n looking into rebels more, it sounds like its gotten even more interesting since the last time i watched.

16 minutes ago, BronzeDog said:

I've recently taken the GM reins of a game taking place in the Rebels era, and I think the original GM and our Mando PC have done something that leaves a lot of wiggle room, and fits what I've seen of Canon: The Mandolorian culture is at a low point, and is having something of an identity crisis. Our Mando PC has family issues over KOTOR-era tradition versus adaptation, with him worried the culture's going to die out if they don't find nobler reasons to fight, and thus earn the respect of the galactic community. It's lead to an interesting friendship with my Bothan mostly-pacifist, who's got similar issues with his overly manipulative clan.

i like this concept of them and the scenarios it can present, i especially enjoy that your mando pc has found a way to make the backstory work for his character to make them a unique character.

ive really enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread, i think i have a really good idea over what the controversy of this is over, and its helped me develop my understanding of them as well.

The season opener for Season 4 of Rebels (premiered a week ago) is a two-parter set on Mandalore. Elaborates a bit on what happened to their culture and society post-TCW, and you get some glimpses into how their culture now functions. Seems very deliberately inspired by more "traditional" portrayals of the Mandalorians; their pacifistic New Mando culture seems to have mostly died out.

25 minutes ago, Ireul said:

In Traviss' books Dr. Halsey shows no regrets about kidnapping them as children or replacing them with rapidly grown clones that would die in a few years. Worse, she treats them as tools and neglects them so badly they turn on her.

hmm i recall this, it was a very disappointing change in the relationship that i enjoyed from the first book, im starting to realize the fact that i might have attributed a greater level of ability to travis because of the work she had done on developing the world building concepts of mandalore.

25 minutes ago, Ireul said:

Yet despite all that, Traviss had some good ideas. The language, focus on family, and equality of all in the culture regardless of sex and species, for example, were all good expansions on the crusading culture from the KotOR series. The codes that defined their honor were a bit hit-or-miss, but also led to a morally grey group that could be heroes or villains; something the other groups like the Jedi or Sith can't aspire to be without compromising their codes.

yes exactly, i think we can value her world building while still recognizing the flaws with her writing

25 minutes ago, Ireul said:

it seemed the writers just took an existing EU name for their original creation (seriously, the culture accepting of warriors regardless of species were all blonde, white humans?!)

so much this, this was the result of my initial hatred of them honestly

25 minutes ago, Ireul said:

as well as the fact the pacificists were always in the right while the warriors were just terrorists. However, with the late TCW additions (showing corruption in the New Mandalorians/a code of honor in Death Watch) and the addition of less extreme warrior clans in Rebels, I've warmed to the canon Mandalorians. Only thing I still dislike is the fact the culture who dislikes Jedi follow a leader partially because they wield a Jedi weapon.

Easiest way is to follow in the footsteps of Rebels: while Death Watch and the New Mandalorians duked it out for control of Mandalore,other warrior clans set up shop on other worlds in Mando space.

hmm yes i have also warmed to the new mandalorians depiction as well based on exactly what you've said, i think it would just need a few out of universe clarification like, no not all new mandalorians are white and blonde, we just didnt see any of the diversity because of who the story was about, specifically satine and her family

also i agree, i relly want to see some developement of the series post rebels, im honestly holding out that fenn shysa still liberates them from the empire.

3 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

The season opener for Season 4 of Rebels (premiered a week ago) is a two-parter set on Mandalore. Elaborates a bit on what happened to their culture and society post-Mandalore, and you get some glimpses into how their culture now functions. Seems very deliberately inspired by more "traditional" portrayals of the Mandalorians; their pacifistic New Mando culture seems to have mostly died out.

this is definitely good news

I honestly don't hate all of Traviss' Star Wars novels but around Legacy of the Force and Order 66 she seems to have gone off the deep end. I still consider the death of Etain, one of the key characters in Traviss' Republic Commando books, one of the most idiotic scenes in the Legends continuity.

And Traviss was just as bad when later writing Halo books. I think some authors need to stick to settings they create rather then multi-author and Traviss is definitely one of those.

5 hours ago, Norr-Saba said:

this is an opinion i keep seeing people repeat, that travis's depiction of the mandalorians neutered the jedi, so is this a case of legitimate depowering of jedi in favor of mandalorians, is it people getting upset that the development of a non-jedi group prevented jedi from being an all powerful ubermensch that they were imagined to be, or is it a combination of both?

She has a clone teach a Jedi Padawan how to better use a lightsaber in combat. Even tough a Padawan would have been training since she was a small kid (as per Attack of the Clones).

10 hours ago, Ireul said:

(seriously, the culture accepting of warriors regardless of species)

Does this not predate Traviss anyway? The Great Sith War and following Mandalorian Wars should pre-date Traviss works iirc. So she basically has nothing left to show.

10 hours ago, Norr-Saba said:

so is this a case of legitimate depowering of jedi in favor of mandalorians, is it people getting upset that the development of a non-jedi group prevented jedi from being an all powerful ubermensch that they were imagined to be, or is it a combination of both?

Mostly this is a case of just terrible writing, a author pushing their agenda ("Mandalorians are awesome! Jedi are stupidheads!") at the expense of the story and otherwise not playing well with others. I unfortunately wasted a couple of days reading the series of books where Jacen solo turned to the dark side, and every time one of her books showed up in rotation, it was wildly inconsistent in tone with the rest of the series. She clearly had some kind of beef and it shone through in her writing.

She was one of the key reasons I rejoiced that Disney dumped all the standing continuity in favor of their rebooted one.

14 hours ago, ExileofEnya said:

Nah, I think we all came to an agreement on that subject a while back: Midichlorians is just another word Heroin, at-least that's what Auralnauts told us.

Yes, we all know that. But what we need to know is:

Will Duke Dirtfarmer give in to midichlorians?

Who is the Last Laser Master?

What will happen to the frozen Han Singular?

Where is Ackbar’s mocha frap with extra hwhip?

How will Creepio react to being considered a god?

Will Mr. Palpatine get maximum profit margins?

Is Laser Moon going to return?

How will the confrontation go between Duke and his actual father, Steve Obi-Wan Ben Larry Kenobi?