First of all this is not a complaining post, just a point of view on the Core Set.

After playing a lot the core, I came to this conclusion, the policy is in fact stronger than the military.

To be more specific I will stick to the two main MIL decks Lion and Uni, and the two main POL, Crane and Scorpion.

Here are my points, starting with the most obvious:

1 - Banzai! - It is almost inevitable to use 3 copies of this card on all decks, this card is a very important resource for political decks, because besides being able to break a province in its weakest skill, it is also an important weapon to defense. On the other side we have court games, but uni and lion do not have great values of glory, so they can not enjoy it so well. The best card to defend against political attacks at the moment is a captive audience, another honor cost card, can compromise the use of assassination (one of the best cards in the core) in your MIL deck.

2 - Dashes - I have already done a topic here about how I think is a little OP the "sent home bowed" effect, more specifically the bowed... This makes the use of these cards extremely risky, however I can not see the Lion deck running without the Berserker or the Uni without Moto Horde, there are no properly replacement in the core set. Scorpion has the Bayushi Liar too, but at least he has an advantage, sincerity (sincere liar? XD).

3 - Rally to the Cause and Kuroi Mori - the two previous points lead to this, Without a card that guarantees a great bonus in politics as Banzai does for military, breaking kuroi mori is a true nightmare (okay there are many posts about this already).. other than that, all competitive decks are running Rally to the Cause, this allied to the key characters with dash makes Lion and Unicorn decks need to scout, which delays the game and leads to the next point..

4 - Midgame - Lion and Uni are essentially rush decks. These decks do not have a second ( efficient ) option of winning the game. This one for me is the key point. Scorpion and Crane, as well as being effective at breaking down provinces in political conflicts, have control cards, and are also very good at changing the game style when necessary, and achieving victory by dishonor. More than that, they do it naturally with the tempo of the game, they are perhaps as good as the Phoenix in midgame. In this position, on military side, is the Crab.

5 - Dependency - Lion and Uni have some of the strongest combos in the game (Charge or Cavalry Reserves + For Greater Glory, I am Ready + Captive Audience...) but are also extremely dependent on these cards to win. When the cards do not come at the right time, or when they take a counter, the game gets stuck. Political decks, despite not having super powerful combos, are more consistent with random combinations of cards.

I am not saying Lion and Uni are Weak, just the way MIL decks won the games seems more based on luck having the right cards at the right time, despite the game inherent strategy of choosing rings, dividing attacks and defenses, etc...

I think it depends on what you mean by "stronger."

I think there are just more cards to help a weaker military clan catch up then there are cards to help a weak political clan catch up. Often times a political conflict begins and ends at the same number. An Ornate Fan or some honor/dishonor are generally the most common plays and both Scorpion and Crane have more options there. Lion and Unicorn do at least have some courtiers to allow them to include some of the key political cards, but, they generally can't go as deep as the political clans can with the inclusion of Banzai. Lion are actually pretty solid all around with a Crane splash. Unicorn have a harder time as they don't have anyone like LPB in terms of ability or keywords.

Honestly, I think this is just a problem with Banzai. Besides the neutral conflict cards that are mirrors of each other (fan/katana, outwit/rout), most of the cards are situational in their usefulness. Both Charge and For Shame are potentially amazing but also potentially dead cards if you don't have relevant characters, Spies at Court and Fallen in Battle are nearly useless for decks that can't reliably win that specific conflict (though, spies at court is a *much* easier splash, since you only have to win a political poke/scout, whereas Fallen in Battle requires ridiculous overkill, so advantage political here), but when it comes to Banzai vs Court Games, both are pretty solid, but Banzai lets you break a province out of nowhere, while Court Games can be dead if neither of you have high glory characters, and unless you're playing Phoenix, it's never going to be a 4-point swing or let you break a province.

Honestly think that Banzai should require it be a bushi. Rout/Outwit require relevant character types, and For Shame also requires a courtier, but there isn't a second military card that requires a bushi to use. It'd make splashing Banzai for value much harder for political decks.

Banzai should be BUSHI only, or at least non-courtier.

Pol decks can run out a 0-1 courtier in a Mil conflict and break a province.

Until a Pol version of Bonzai comes out, the Mil decks are inherently disadvantaged.

40 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

Honestly, I think this is just a problem with Banzai. Besides the neutral conflict cards that are mirrors of each other (fan/katana, outwit/rout), most of the cards are situational in their usefulness. Both Charge and For Shame are potentially amazing but also potentially dead cards if you don't have relevant characters, Spies at Court and Fallen in Battle are nearly useless for decks that can't reliably win that specific conflict (though, spies at court is a *much* easier splash, since you only have to win a political poke/scout, whereas Fallen in Battle requires ridiculous overkill, so advantage political here), but when it comes to Banzai vs Court Games, both are pretty solid, but Banzai lets you break a province out of nowhere, while Court Games can be dead if neither of you have high glory characters, and unless you're playing Phoenix, it's never going to be a 4-point swing or let you break a province.

Honestly think that Banzai should require it be a bushi. Rout/Outwit require relevant character types, and For Shame also requires a courtier, but there isn't a second military card that requires a bushi to use. It'd make splashing Banzai for value much harder for political decks.

Yes, Fallen in Battle is a good card but in core set I can only see Crab using, perhaps Lion or Uni combined with captive audience on defense (not the decks focus).. Still Spies at court run in most POL decks, since its requirements are easier to accomplish, and is a usefull control resource.

You could say the same about "court games" though, which is why non political decks have 3 of each. But yes, the ability to break a province with a 1 fate character, and 1 honor loss seems a bit OP especially against Military decks that focus on province breaking than removal.

There are so many ways to stop a 1 fate character backed by only a banzai.

This seems a bit like sour grapes from a lion/uni player that is either inexperienced or unskilled. I've seen a lot of this from Uni in particular. But I have seen skilled players make good use of Lion and a very select few Uni decks (Uni just tends to run out of steam when played as rush and has a very narrow list of cards to use for a long game).

I would say, that unless you are:

1 - playing with 3 cores

2 - have played both sides of the coin

3 - tried a wide variety of conflict decks/splashes

4 - have made sure you do not fall into the trap of using subpar (for 3x core) cards

complaints of this nature are going to be short sightedness. So many players I see are using the 'cool' cards and have little to no actual game plan. In many cases there is only one or two options for a particular type of deck in each clan. Trying to just use all the 'cool' cards may result in your having a deck without enough focus to achieve your victory condition/game plan.

Additionally per an interview one of the devs did with Team Covenant, not all clans are equal. This is by design. The power of various clans will ebb and flow as the meta and card pool evolve.

Another contributing factor is I see a lot of players who have decided what clan they want to play but picked based on something other than the actual strengths of the clan. Some pick for aesthetics, some for the icon, some for the colors the clan uses. So many times I have seen someone who says "I want to play X type of deck, but I don't want to use X clan, I want to use Y." Well (at least for now with the cards we have) you are going to have a bad time. I think people need to just accept if they should remain as casual players and use the clan they want even if it's strengths don't match how you want to play, or accept that for competitive play you need to use the tools the clan has correctly. I'm sure not going to play Crab, Lion, or Uni if I want to go heavy on Politics...

6 hours ago, L5RBr said:

First of all this is not a complaining post, just a point of view on the Core Set.

After playing a lot the core, I came to this conclusion, the policy is in fact stronger than the military.

To be more specific I will stick to the two main MIL decks Lion and Uni, and the two main POL, Crane and Scorpion.

3

Are you playing one core games or full games?

I only ask because in my experience in full games courtiers are the best supported tribal group in the 3 core game.

Also:

15 hours ago, feydruatha said:

Are you playing one core games or full games?

I only ask because in my experience in full games courtiers are the best supported tribal group in the 3 core game.

Also:

Yes Im talking about 3X core set .

15 hours ago, Krashwire said:

There are so many ways to stop a 1 fate character backed by only a banzai.

This seems a bit like sour grapes from a lion/uni player that is either inexperienced or unskilled . I've seen a lot of this from Uni in particular. But I have seen skilled players make good use of Lion and a very select few Uni decks (Uni just tends to run out of steam when played as rush and has a very narrow list of cards to use for a long game).

I would say, that unless you are:

1 - playing with 3 cores

2 - have played both sides of the coin

3 - tried a wide variety of conflict decks/splashes

4 - have made sure you do not fall into the trap of using subpar (for 3x core) cards

complaints of this nature are going to be short sightedness. So many players I see are using the 'cool' cards and have little to no actual game plan. In many cases there is only one or two options for a particular type of deck in each clan. Trying to just use all the 'cool' cards may result in your having a deck without enough focus to achieve your victory condition/game plan.

Additionally per an interview one of the devs did with Team Covenant, not all clans are equal. This is by design. The power of various clans will ebb and flow as the meta and card pool evolve.

Another contributing factor is I see a lot of players who have decided what clan they want to play but picked based on something other than the actual strengths of the clan. Some pick for aesthetics, some for the icon, some for the colors the clan uses. So many times I have seen someone who says "I want to play X type of deck, but I don't want to use X clan, I want to use Y." Well (at least for now with the cards we have) you are going to have a bad time. I think people need to just accept if they should remain as casual players and use the clan they want even if it's strengths don't match how you want to play, or accept that for competitive play you need to use the tools the clan has correctly. I'm sure not going to play Crab, Lion, or Uni if I want to go heavy on Politics...

First, I think its pretty clear that the topic question is not about Banzai breaking provinces with a 1 cost char..

Second, if you think you can judge a player you don't know and against you never have played as a inexperienced or unskilled, you don't even deserve my attention..

I think we can presume most decks are running 3X court games too.

Still court games is far less efective than Banzai cause it dont require presence, so, you can choose not defend and many times we see the "I play court games... ok, me too" happen. Besides that court games has a lot better use in Crane/Scorpion/Crab/Phoenix, cause it helps the dishonor..

Banzai needs the presence, so if you choose not defend a province attacked by a char you have this choices:

1 - Kill the char with assassination, presuming is 3- cost and dont have above question, so you are entering in the dishonor trap..

2 - Bow the char. OK theres no neutral card to bow without presence. Here is an example of what I say abou cards dependency. The only card I can remember now you can use in core set is mirumotos fury, and is not the best splash choice for Uni, but presuming you use it, you still need to have 1 fate and dont take a counter, not that hard to do for sure, but it is situational. Or you need to splash crane and have the two cards in hand steward + for shame... again, situational, right cards at right time..

Maybe Im missing something?

So, many times the best option is defend the province or let your foe brake it and try to brake his provinces first.

The whole game is situational. It depends each turn on what things look like, what rings are available, how much fate on each, each players honor, each players number of broken and also revealed provinces, hand size, etc.

There are turns where military will be stronger than political and vice versa.

Maybe because you're seeing these as 'rush' clans, you're limiting yourself. I think because the game is so young people are prone to aping without exploration. Not accusing you specifically of this. Just that it warps perspective, even if you're not deliberately copying something, you're still hearing certain things over and over.

22 hours ago, Tebbo said:

The whole game is situational. It depends each turn on what things look like, what rings are available, how much fate on each, each players honor, each players number of broken and also revealed provinces, hand size, etc.

There are turns where military will be stronger than political and vice versa.

Maybe because you're seeing these as 'rush' clans, you're limiting yourself. I think because the game is so young people are prone to aping without exploration. Not accusing you specifically of this. Just that it warps perspective, even if you're not deliberately copying something, you're still hearing certain things over and over.

I think is clear that on the POL side Crane and Scorpion you have 2 consistent ways to win, many times you win for dishonor, many other breaking provinces, with the same deck, you can adjust with the progress of each game, or play according with your opponent clan.

On the MIL side, Lion and Uni dont work like that, you will only win by dishonor if your opponent play bad, this is a fact. You will not win this way with your own cards and effects, there is no support for it. You will only win by honor if you opponent play bad AND you trigger air ring with toturi at least 2 times in a game, and in more than a hundred games I played local and in octgn, this never happened.. anyway my own experience is vague, but there has been a lot of discussion about the feasibility of honor decks and I think there is a consensus in the community that is not effective in the core set.

Remembering I am just talking about the core set.. So I think that, independent of - Lion and Uni are rush decks? I can make a deck for midgame... or Banzai is not that unbalanced for POL.. is safe to say that Crane and Scorpion have 2 efficient ways to win the game, and Lion and Uni don't have this flexibility, to me this point alone justify saying POL side has an advantage.

Again, not saying Lion and Uni are weak in core, specially Lion, but this lack of flexibility makes them one (not so big) step below.

Crane aren't particularly better at Dishonour wins than Lion or Unicorn. Having good Politics doesn't mean you're better at Dishonour, it just means you're better at winning Political Conflicts.

4 minutes ago, Evilgm said:

Crane aren't particularly better at Dishonour wins than Lion or Unicorn. Having good Politics doesn't mean you're better at Dishonour, it just means you're better at winning Political Conflicts.

Crane can for example:

- easily use spies at court, wich helps the dishonor making your foe needs to draw more cards

- use court games to dishonor and voice of honor to cancel the opponent court games (lion can use crane splash to try this, still crane can use scorpion splash and have 6 counters..)

- Use court games while your opponent cant with guest of honor or above question

-Also, many times the stronghold disencourage some defs on POL, and you can make the honor loss from unopposed

- There is a Crane char that steals honor

- the crane holdings and chars with sincerity that gives draws.. this helps dishonor too, you can bid low..

Is what I remember now, maybe I'm missing something..

Lion can also play Spies at Court.

Lion have many ways of gaining Honoured Status, and thus can also bid low.

Lion's SH is as likely to make someone not defend Military Conflicts as Crane's is with Political.

You're wasting any merit your argument had by pixel ******* over something that just isn't the case- competitive Crane decks will aim to rush down with their superior 2 drops, good Politics and Banzai!. Stick to complaining about that instead of drifting into a much weaker argument that just makes your entire outlook appear incorrect.

5 hours ago, L5RBr said:

I think is clear that on the POL side Crane and Scorpion you have 2 consistent ways to win, many times you win for dishonor, many other breaking provinces, with the same deck, you can adjust with the progress of each game, or play according with your opponent clan.

On the MIL side, Lion and Uni dont work like that, you will only win by dishonor if your opponent play bad, this is a fact. You will not win this way with your own cards and effects, there is no support for it. You will only win by honor if you opponent play bad AND you trigger air ring with toturi at least 2 times in a game, and in more than a hundred games I played local and in octgn, this never happened.. anyway my own experience is vague, but there has been a lot of discussion about the feasibility of honor decks and I think there is a consensus in the community that is not effective in the core set.

Remembering I am just talking about the core set.. So I think that, independent of - Lion and Uni are rush decks? I can make a deck for midgame... or Banzai is not that unbalanced for POL.. is safe to say that Crane and Scorpion have 2 efficient ways to win the game, and Lion and Uni don't have this flexibility, to me this point alone justify saying POL side has an advantage.

Again, not saying Lion and Uni are weak in core, specially Lion, but this lack of flexibility makes them one (not so big) step below.

I get your angle but I don't really agree.

I think you're reducing things down in a way that is artificial in order to make a point. All of the win/loss conditions are tied together, Crane and Scorpion don't have an advantage just because they are political. Lion and Unicorn have flexibility, it's just not political. They have much greater flexibility with committing. Lion by often having a larger number of characters and Unicorn by being able to move.

if rush means just having a bunch of characters, ok. it's tempo because you can afford to defend... but not so much that your attacks are inherently better or more numerous.