Hello guys,

One of my player got the Stim application talent, and I try to understand what are the limit of it, beside what is already written in the book.

My questions are:

- Imagine my team ready to assault an Imperial bunker, can the Doc' boost one stat per PC if they have enough time to organize everything?

- Can that Stim application boost the merchant Presence/Negociation roll during a purchasing process?

I added one rule btw: every Stim application uses a Stimpack.

Thanks for your feedbacks buddies

There is a daily limit, and every use of a stimpack on a PC reduces the next use's efficacy. You could stim everyone going into battle, but then using a stimpack to recover wounds would be down one point, two on the second use, etc.

We're talking about the Stim Application (and Improved/Supreme versions) talent, found in the Doctor and Medic trees, JRRP. Not the item Stimpack .

As written, there is no limit. The strain cost was supposed to be the limiting factor: too many drugs in your system at once and you fall into a mini-coma! But for actions like the mentioned Negotiation check for buying merchandise, there really isn't a downside, is there?

I think your piton of treating each use as a use of a Stimpack is a good one, as it imposes a penalty for overuse doesn't overwhelm. My other option might be too use Destiny Points to inflict some problems. Maybe, after making so many deals under the effects of a Presence-boosting Stim, the party face loses done confidence. Can she do it when the doctor isn't around? Maybe all those deals were just the Stim...

Or maybe the stuff is mildly addictive, and characters who get four or more Brawn boosts a day start to have withdrawals or suffer other drawbacks. Nothing major , but just enough to make their performance questionable to their superiors...

I don't allow it during narrative play, has to be an encounter. Doesn't necessarily mean only combat but it has to be an encounter, so for just going out shopping I wouldn't allow it. In regards to the bunker assault, if they are launching the attack and you are allowing them to have the prep time I see no issue dosing everyone.

1 hour ago, Absol197 said:

We're talking about the Stim Application (and Improved/Supreme versions) talent, found in the Doctor and Medic trees, JRRP. Not the item Stimpack .

As written, there is no limit. The strain cost was supposed to be the limiting factor: too many drugs in your system at once and you fall into a mini-coma! But for actions like the mentioned Negotiation check for buying merchandise, there really isn't a downside, is there?

I think your piton of treating each use as a use of a Stimpack is a good one, as it imposes a penalty for overuse doesn't overwhelm. My other option might be too use Destiny Points to inflict some problems. Maybe, after making so many deals under the effects of a Presence-boosting Stim, the party face loses done confidence. Can she do it when the doctor isn't around? Maybe all those deals were just the Stim...

Or maybe the stuff is mildly addictive, and characters who get four or more Brawn boosts a day start to have withdrawals or suffer other drawbacks. Nothing major , but just enough to make their performance questionable to their superiors...

Actually I'd probably stick them with the Addiction Obligation, if this became a Standard Operating Procedure for one or more of the PC's. If every situation starts with "Doc, dose me", I think it's entirely fair to have them start to deal with negative side effects of it. Possibly even some dice penalties if it persists.

There is actually a great example of how this can be replicated, even for "perfectly legal drugs" in Babylon 5. The head doctor for the station, Stephen Franklin, is a workaholic, and also one of the few people highly trained in alien biology/medicine. So he constantly feels like he has to keep working, because if he doesn't someone could die. So he takes "stims", which is exactly that, a stimulant. In small doses, used occasionally, they are perfectly fine. But when used regularly, as he was using them, they become addictive. It was a great subplot for the character, that spanned several seasons of the show.

I would take a page from that playbook on how to handle this.

As to when they could use it, I'd say in and out of encounters is fine. There are plenty of examples of performance enhancing drugs in every avenue of life. The show The Expanse, showed an example of using a drug before beginning an interrogation, as the drug allowed the user to notice small tells and the like.

1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

Actually I'd probably stick them with the Addiction Obligation, if this became a Standard Operating Procedure for one or more of the PC's. If every situation starts with "Doc, dose me", I think it's entirely fair to have them start to deal with negative side effects of it. Possibly even some dice penalties if it persists.

There is actually a great example of how this can be replicated, even for "perfectly legal drugs" in Babylon 5. The head doctor for the station, Stephen Franklin, is a workaholic, and also one of the few people highly trained in alien biology/medicine. So he constantly feels like he has to keep working, because if he doesn't someone could die. So he takes "stims", which is exactly that, a stimulant. In small doses, used occasionally, they are perfectly fine. But when used regularly, as he was using them, they become addictive. It was a great subplot for the character, that spanned several seasons of the show.

I would take a page from that playbook on how to handle this.

As to when they could use it, I'd say in and out of encounters is fine. There are plenty of examples of performance enhancing drugs in every avenue of life. The show The Expanse, showed an example of using a drug before beginning an interrogation, as the drug allowed the user to notice small tells and the like.

The Addiction Obligation was my first instinct, but seeing as this is the Age forum, I didn't want to assume that Ritalbringer also had the Edge core book .

And I never watched Babylon 5, but that does sound like a neat arc!

In reading the description of Stim Application on pg. 157, it stipulates that the characters have "access to drugs, a medpack, or stimpacks." I always played it as one of the applications of a stimpack for the day, which would allow a greater benefit due to stim application, but with a slight trade-off from less immediate healing and a built-in limit. I guess that was me make a house-rule or judgement call, but I think it works.

There are rules in place limiting how much healing a trained doctor can attempt in every other respect, I guess this just seemed natural.

15 hours ago, JRRP said:

In reading the description of Stim Application on pg. 157, it stipulates that the characters have "access to drugs, a medpack, or stimpacks." I always played it as one of the applications of a stimpack for the day, which would allow a greater benefit due to stim application, but with a slight trade-off from less immediate healing and a built-in limit. I guess that was me make a house-rule or judgement call, but I think it works.

There are rules in place limiting how much healing a trained doctor can attempt in every other respect, I guess this just seemed natural.

I think either ruling is valid. Saying it uses up one of your 5 daily stim uses does put a very significant limit on it, preventing exploitation by opportunistic players. But I'd also say that since it doesn't say it has a limit, it could be used as much. That thing you quoted doesn't entirely say it requires a "stim" to use. It does mention "access to drugs", and last time I checked, there isn't a daily limit on narcotics

My personal ruling is that the stuff used to give someone stat boosts with Stim Application, aren't your typical medications used to heal a person. They would be the more powerful/addictive drugs that doctors have access to, and can utilize. I think back to examples in films and stuff of this very thing happening, and the doctor almost always gives a strong warning about doing this to get a quick and easy edge, that there is a risk/price.

So I personally wouldn't limit it to the 5 stim rule, and let them jab needles into their eyeballs for short term benefits all they want....until it's time to pay the piper >:D

I see no possible downsides to constantly imbibing the bastard result of a tryst between meth, morphine, and steroids, and gleefully welcome the mind-warping consequences of habitually flooding your veins with this unholy concoction.

By all means, stack on the additional obligation, random fear checks while going about my daily business due to the near absence of serotonin in my brain, spontaneous strain damage from nausea & withdrawal, and the blackouts that end with me waking in a puddle of my own bloody vomit. Your ramifications only serve to further harden my... determination, we'll go with that.

I make it simple; I allow one application of the talent before an encounter, when the players know that combat is coming up. After that they have to spend actions on it during structured play, like any other action.

Even when we have access to a medpac or other paraphernalia, we usually consume a stimpack to to use the talent because it is a convenient applicator.

If they are gearing up for a big battle, I allow them to prepare one "application" of it for each party member, but only IF they think of it ahead of time. If the application doesn't get used, it loses it's potency by the end of the "day" (More often than not they forget they even have that talent until after battle is joined).

If it is not thought of ahead of time, it usually only sees use when the Pilot (the medic's girlfriend) starts getting injured, then he boosts her Brawn for the extra soak and wound until the end of the encounter.

It can be used to boost any stat, so I allow it to boost Presence in order to Negotiate a good deal. But once they leave one shop to go to another, that is the end of the encounter. So, they would need to reapply if they want to do it again at the next shop (Again, more often than not they forget they even have that talent).

On 23.10.2017 at 7:29 PM, Absol197 said:

The Addiction Obligation was my first instinct, but seeing as this is the Age forum, I didn't want to assume that Ritalbringer also had the Edge core book .

Eh, I must say, I'm not a fan. Does the Saboteur who regularly uses her Master Grenadier talent gain pyromania? Does the Quartermaster with his Greased Palms and Bought Info suddenly develop a Debt?

The talents are what the players have bought and paid for. Unless they are blatantly unbalanced, I wouldn't bog them down with more downsides. And the Stim Application seems reasonably fine to me. Yes, the talent is helpful in many situations, but then again, it also costs 4 or at least 1 Strain, limiting the ability of the beneficiaries to use certain other talents, dump Threats into Strain or resist stun damage. If you absolutely must have another downside, count it as a stim pak use for the day.

43 minutes ago, Cifer said:

Does the Saboteur who regularly uses her Master Grenadier talent gain pyromania?

I understand the point you're making, but this suddenly made me think of a Saboteur who gains Master Grenadier, then begins using it at every opportunity, just "because it's fun to blow stuff up." I would, in that case, definitely say, "Ok, now you're a pyromaniac"

Oh, I'm absolutely looking forward to playing a reprogrammed imperial protocol droid with a personality core severely skewed towards incendiary methods of problem solving, but that's what I'd want to play, not something I'd like the GM to spring on me. The same way, I could absolutely see playing a rebel soldier with a stimmie problem - a drug problem in the group, with another character as the reluctant enabler somewhere between "friends don't let friends continue their downward spiral" and "the rebellion needs results"? **** yeah - if that's what I choose (either by taking the appropriate obligation or choosing to use substances that actually carry those consequences according to the rulebook).