I'm putting this idea forward to cover 2 areas that I think need improvement mechanically in the system.

Firstly this will address the Strife system. Even though I don't mind it, there is enough vocal opposition from people who have tried the system that I feel it must require some revision. I get the feeling one of the main points of contention is the forced-strife. In most die rolls you must take some Strife in order to pass your check. I feel people are okay taking Strife "if needed" but feel cheated that there isn't a reliable way to pass a check without Strife.

I also want to address a point of frustration for me, which is the ridged requirements of dice rolls. Having to get 2 success and 2 opportunities is tough. Sometimes I get 3 success and 1 opportunity, or worse I get 1 success and 3 opportunities... There are times when either of these is akin to failure at the roll because it fails to do what I actually intended. The previous L5R system used raises to accomplish the same feat, but with a single TN all dice contributed to the same goal. This is not the case with the new system. 1 Success is still a failure even with 3 Opportunities, likewise while 3 Success + 1 Opportunity technically passes a check, it doesn't do what I might have needed (crit an enraged boar for example.)

What I suggest is we change the dice a bit. They will still feature the current symbols but we will drop the combined symbols. There will not be any Success + Opportunity, or Success + Strife, or any combination results. Each face will have just 1 symbol.

So what does Strife do then? Well it can count as EITHER a Success or an Opportunity if you gain the Strife associated with that facet. It basically acts as a wildcard allowing us to get a little more success, or target a certain success + opportunity combination with the cost that we're pushing harder to make it work aka gaining strife.

I feel this would establish a bit more control over the character. A player wouldn't feel forced into taking Strife just to pass a simple check. If they rolled so badly they didn't get enough raw success they can then opt to take the Strife accepting that the fortunes were not good for them. Clarity is important and this helps a player see clearly what is a Success, and what is a Strife/Success. The overlap is, I think, part of what makes this a bad experience. Currently Ring dice have 2 Success options with Strife, and only 1 without... This specifically targets new players with extra Strife results making it especially frustrating to get into the game. Most players are going to roll 4k3 for their first rolls in the game, with a chance of 1-2 Strife per roll... That's a lot pushed on them. Whether thematic or not, it feels bad because the Strife is pinned to your Success results, not an optional system where you pay the cost for your desired result. (imagine if you took damage every time you attack an opponent)

When a player wants their character to perform a more impressive feat this helps them push towards that more impressive feat with some assurance they might actually succeed, and the strife makes sense for these actions as they're pushing more towards an excellent success, not a simple success. While the dice don't have many actual blank sides, when you specify that you need 2 success and 2 opportunities more dice start coming up "wasted" even if they weren't blank. By adding Strife as a wild card result we can be assured that a few extra sides are tilted in our favor, whatever results we are working towards, if we count that our character is pushing themselves a little bit.

So I pose this change - adjusting the dice so that Strife is an optional Wild Card option with its own face. This more clearly demonstrates the character making it work by pushing through adversity, while also providing a more clear path to true success where they simply do what they were supposed to do without a hitch. Additionally this gives us a better tool to allow our characters to extend themselves into dramatic actions which would require a combination of success + opportunity to achieve where the current system leaves us too prone to failure through getting the wrong combination.

Clean up - what do we do with Explosive results? I think the Ring die should have an Explosive Strife, while the Skill die should have an Explosive Success and an Explosive Strife. I don't think that is too much of a stretch for the design team... nor would it be too difficult to fathom as a player.

My postulated dice facets:

Current Ring: Blank, Success, Success/Strife, Explode/Strife, Opportunity, Opportunity/Strife

New Ring: Blank, Success, Success, Opportunity, Strife, Explode/Strife

Current Skill: Blank, Blank, Success, Success, Success/Op, Success/Strife, Success/Strife, Explode, Explode/Strife, Opportunity, Opportunity, Opportunity

New Skill: Blank, Blank, Success, Success, Success, Success, Explode, Strife, Strife, Explode/Strife, Opportunity, Opportunity

Previous Ring dice give a 17% chance of Success without Strife, and an additional 33% chance of Success with Strife for a total of 50% chance of success. The new Ring dice give a 30% chance of Success without Strife, and 30% chance of Success with Strife cost for a total 60%. The previous Skill dice give a 30% chance of Success without Strife, and 28% chance of Success with Strife totaling 58%. New Skill die gives a 42% chance of clean Success, and 25% chance of Strife totaling 67%

This obviously generates slightly less strife than the current system, but it makes taking that strife more of a decision point for the player rather than a tacked on penalty for success. Crucially it allows the player more freedom to determine what that Strife means to them.. (narratively, as well as success / opportunity options) Because the chances of success without Strife are there, the Strife system can be given a bit more teeth. Rather than having Strife come only from die rolls they can be included as penalties for attacks against them, terrain modifications, or other generally bad narrative things. In this way a GM can push a narrative of Strife on a player with reason, and a player can elect to succeed at a cost, but a player won't simply have a bundle of Strife fall in their lap for seemingly no reason.

Any suggested change to the dice is a fool's errand. Given the accelerated beta schedule, I would put good money on the dice design already being finalized and at the manufacturer's.

I’m not a fan of Strife as is, but insofar as I understand FFG’s intented purpose for it not being able to reliably succeed without picking up Strife is an absolute requirement.

15 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

I’m not a fan of Strife as is, but insofar as I understand FFG’s intented purpose for it not being able to reliably succeed without picking up Strife is an absolute requirement.

1 hour ago, player2636234 said:

Any suggested change to the dice is a fool's errand. Given the accelerated beta schedule, I would put good money on the dice design already being finalized and at the manufacturer's.

Not a fan of strife period, but it is ingrained in just about every mechanic in this game. The issues is not just dice or mechanics. if they got rid of strife they would have to do a major overhaul to the system, meaning end of beta, back to alpha, game delayed xx number of months.

23 hours ago, shosuko said:

Each face will have just 1 symbol.

A symbol ? Oh, you mean, like a number ? Between 1 and 10, in ten-sided dice, preferably?

On a more serious note:

23 hours ago, shosuko said:

I also want to address a point of frustration for me, which is the ridged requirements of dice rolls. Having to get 2 success and 2 opportunities is tough. Sometimes I get 3 success and 1 opportunity, or worse I get 1 success and 3 opportunities... There are times when either of these is akin to failure at the roll because it fails to do what I actually intended. The previous L5R system used raises to accomplish the same feat, but with a single TN all dice contributed to the same goal. This is not the case with the new system. 1 Success is still a failure even with 3 Opportunities, likewise while 3 Success + 1 Opportunity technically passes a check, it doesn't do what I might have needed (crit an enraged boar for example.)

This is exactly what I saw coming from the very moment we had confirmation on these damned dice. I don't think L5R 4e were perfect, on the contrary. I always thought it needed some serious revision and that was what excited me the most when 5e was announced. But the problem wasn't in the dice .

And, like many people in the boards, I don't have a problem with Strife and Outburst on principle , just with its implementation. As I keep writing my own homebrewed version of the L5R 5e, one thought I had was associating Strife with a result of "1" and "9" on the d10. If those numbers came up, you could choose to suffer the Strife to reroll the "1" (exactly like the old Skill Emphasis), or to explode the die in case of a "9". This would simulate a character suffering the stress of a near failure or pushing himself harder to achieve a greater roll, respectively.

Of course, these Strife gains would be incidental. The meat of the Strife should reside in any sort of "social combat" system is implemented. I think the Mistborne RPG could be an inspiration here.

15 hours ago, player2636234 said:

Any suggested change to the dice is a fool's errand. Given the accelerated beta schedule, I would put good money on the dice design already being finalized and at the manufacturer's.

Pretty much.

There were a whole host of folks complaining about the dice arrangements during the Edge of the Empire beta using all sorts of justifications and alternate arrangements, none of which were acknowledged or implemented.

More likely than not, the dice arrangements for this version of L5R were codified during the alpha playtesting.

So just tossing an idea out there about Strife and how quickly it can accumulate...

Rather than hoping for a dice change (won't happen for reasons noted above), perhaps change how Strife is accrued. Namely, that the PC only accrues Strife if they fail the check being attempted, pretty much as a means of reflecting them being stressed about not succeeding in their current task. Or, if they succeed the check, they can convert 2 points of Strife into an Opportunity, as they push themselves harder to accomplish their current task, but in the process making themselves more weary and mentally/physically/emotionally drained.

Okay, after trying it out for realsies, I'm growing more and more fond of the idea that Strife and Outburst are not broken, only the developer intent is completely off the charts. They aren't creating serious samurai drama, it is quite the opposite: they lighten up the situation with legitimate silliness and fun, like quips in a Marvel movie (heck, quipping is an Outburst option, so there is that). This isn't necessarily wrong but quite at odds with the developer intent.

While I was pretty vehement at opposing the mechanic before, now I'm sure that a simple rewording and retheming can solve all the problems. Make things more pulpy, and more like a Kurosawa movie with its silly moments ("The head! It turned into a statue!").

You can believe that all you want but for some people (myself included), the system has fundamental problems that are dealbreakers. Further, not everyone actually wants to play pulpy samurai drama, so that is a solution based on personal preference.

3 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

You can believe that all you want but for some people (myself included), the system has fundamental problems that are dealbreakers. Further, not everyone actually wants to play pulpy samurai drama, so that is a solution based on personal preference.

Just pointing out that there might be a lot more smoke here than fire. Before yesterday, I would have been the loudest about Strife/Outburst having fundamental problems, but after actually playing it, my opinion has changed quite drastically in this regard.

Quote

not everyone actually wants to play pulpy samurai drama

Well, not everyone actually wants to play samurai drama period, so personally, I don't think that we can walk this path.

Just now, AtoMaki said:

Well, not everyone actually wants to play samurai drama period, so personally, I don't think that we can walk this path.

I think we can both agree that a game that is agnostic to specific tone has the potential to support a broader range of tones that suit different groups.

I think mechanically enforcing a narrower tone makes the game appeal to people who enjoy that tone, at the detriment to other tones.

Quote

Just pointing out that there might be a lot more smoke here than fire. Before yesterday, I would have been the loudest about Strife/Outburst having fundamental problems, but after actually playing it, my opinion has changed quite drastically in this regard.

I think pivoting and suggesting the game double down on being snarky, violent "pulp" is strong evidence that the system fundamentally does not achieve its stated goal of "encouraging samurai drama".

11 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

I think pivoting and suggesting the game double down on being snarky, violent "pulp" is strong evidence that the system fundamentally does not achieve its stated goal of "encouraging samurai drama".

Ah, yes, what I meant is that it should move away from its stated goal of "encouraging samurai drama" and instead move to something like "encouraging general samurai behavior". The tone needs to change to non-specific, I think the mechanic will flow with a more generic approach just fine.

If there is something I'm still worried about is that Strife might be not bad enough to build "risk-for-reward" mechanics around it like Fire Stance. And some of the Advantages/Disadvantages interact weirdly with Outbursts.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Pretty much.

There were a whole host of folks complaining about the dice arrangements during the Edge of the Empire beta using all sorts of justifications and alternate arrangements, none of which were acknowledged or implemented.

More likely than not, the dice arrangements for this version of L5R were codified during the alpha playtesting.

I don't care what can or can't be changed, I'm discussing what I think should be changed. If you disagree with my changes, or my descriptions of the problems I'm seeing you can voice your disagreement - but just saying "that won't change lol" doesn't help - mostly because you don't know what will or won't change.

Further - even as I recommend these changes, I'm playing with the system as currently presented. I'm open to how the system currently works, and am getting better at using it. Its not a bad system.

53 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Okay, after trying it out for realsies, I'm growing more and more fond of the idea that Strife and Outburst are not broken, only the developer intent is completely off the charts. They aren't creating serious samurai drama, it is quite the opposite: they lighten up the situation with legitimate silliness and fun, like quips in a Marvel movie (heck, quipping is an Outburst option, so there is that). This isn't necessarily wrong but quite at odds with the developer intent.

While I was pretty vehement at opposing the mechanic before, now I'm sure that a simple rewording and retheming can solve all the problems. Make things more pulpy, and more like a Kurosawa movie with its silly moments ("The head! It turned into a statue!").

Right? Like, I think calling something Strife, and Outburst generates a certain context that is scary - but once you go through an outburst you realize it just doesn't hold up. For example in our last game the players were interacting with some Lion clan shugenja holding some last rites for their fallen after a battle, and venerating their ancestors. As the scene was concluding one character was going to make his best, most formal and respectful farewell to keep them open as a possible ally. He rolls everything he needs, but ends up with 5 Strife from the roll. His respectful farewell turns into him rambling to Togashi (outburst, shut down) as the successfully appeased Lion Shugenja who have become quite impressed with him by his actions so far bow repeatedly waiting for him to finish speaking and leave...

45 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

You can believe that all you want but for some people (myself included), the system has fundamental problems that are dealbreakers. Further, not everyone actually wants to play pulpy samurai drama, so that is a solution based on personal preference.

I don't know that I'd pigeonhole the Strife system as being "for pulpy samurai drama." What it does is pretty simple. I get that a lot of people don't like it, and I'm trying to understand more of their positions, but I think the error isn't just on FFG here. I think it is a combination of FFG saying something poorly, and then players taking that poor wording at face value refusing to look any further into it.

If you have used the Strife system - please share your experiences. What Outbursts did your group play through? How did these effect your game?

Yesterday we had one Outburst. We've stumbled upon a story of certain Lion being beaten very thoroughly in a game of dice. Our Akodo decided to even the score and defeat the gambler in the name of Lion Clan.

Akodo was accompanied by an Ikoma, and the opposition (this was modeled as a Conflict) was composed of a master gambler and an Ide diplomat. Ide and Ikoma were using their social skills to manipulate the odds, while players themselves were trying to accumulate points through rolls.

At certain point, Ikoma used his technique to Enrage and Daze the opposing Gambler. Akodo player had a suite of Advantages related to HANDING OUT JUSTICE and so on, and they decided that if their character is capable of spotting the Ikomas interference, they want to invert these advantages into Anxieties. GM agreed, player got a massive swing of Strife that triggered an Outburst (Expose a Weakness - Intolerance for Criminals), and also refilled their Void tank. And then used that to Seize the Moment and the game.

Outburst itself was basically Akodo furiously scolding the Ikoma for distracting the opponent as if the razor-edged skill of games combined with the guidance of Ancestors isn't enough to do this.

As GM ruled that the actual "rolls" (and bets, and other "actual playing the game" elements) were Scheme actions, this Outburst helped tilt the favor towards us, despite the opposition being much more skilled at Games than we were.

I have to say I think the symbol combination on the dice is fine. Sure a fresh character might have to deal a lot with strife, but it seems one has to really go for it to get to an outburst, so no biggie, but more advanced caharcters will then have less trouble with strife, not just because their composure will get higher, but also because of their growing dice pools that lets them select more easily just the dice that have no strife on them.

So, if you look at strife as some kind of stress, then you will notice it behaves not bad. It creates the feel of teenage angst and the stress of doing tasks that one has not mastered yet. That seems all perfectly reasonable for the game.

Wow! @AtoMaki changing their tone on outbursts! Giving me hope! (Or feeding my confirmation bias? )

13 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Ah, yes, what I meant is that it should move away from its stated goal of "encouraging samurai drama" and instead move to something like "encouraging general samurai behavior". The tone needs to change to non-specific, I think the mechanic will flow with a more generic approach just fine.

Do you think you can use the options on pp. 17 & 41 to re-flavor outbursts to the sort of campaign you want? Like if you'd rather do "samurai drama" than pulpy? From p. 41: ". . . you can even mix and match the narrative and mechanical effects of outbursts, reflavor the narrative side of an outburst to better fit your character, or make up a wholly new outburst".

5 hours ago, sidescroller said:

Do you think you can use the options on pp. 17 & 41 to re-flavor outbursts to the sort of campaign you want? Like if you'd rather do "samurai drama" than pulpy? From p. 41: ". . . you can even mix and match the narrative and mechanical effects of outbursts, reflavor the narrative side of an outburst to better fit your character, or make up a wholly new outburst".

1

Sure. As I said, it is not the mechanic that is problematic but the fluff around it.

Interesting suggestion - although unlikely as others have noted due to the dice being probably 'locked in'

My main query - what happens to Fire Stance in conflicts for this one, and other strife-driven abilities?

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Interesting suggestion - although unlikely as others have noted due to the dice being probably 'locked in'

My main query - what happens to Fire Stance in conflicts for this one, and other strife-driven abilities?

I hope the dice are not locked in as is. And no not because they are custom dice. Because as they stand right now the success odds are off.

TN 1 in this game roughly translates to TN 5 in 4th. which is fine as you have about a 60% chance on both types of dice of getting a success. The problem comes that a TN 2 is roughly equal to a TN 10 in the old system. which you have a 10% changes in 4th to hit on one dice without exploding, but a 0% chance in 5th. Not sure on the exact numbers but this % gap get wider and wider as the TN goes up even with exploding. This gap becomes more noticeable as you get higher R&K levels. So maybe not the Ring dice but I do feel that the Skill dice need at least one 2 success spot on them to fix this.

4 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

I hope the dice are not locked in as is. And no not because they are custom dice. Because as they stand right now the success odds are off.

TN 1 in this game roughly translates to TN 5 in 4th. which is fine as you have about a 60% chance on both types of dice of getting a success. The problem comes that a TN 2 is roughly equal to a TN 10 in the old system. which you have a 10% changes in 4th to hit on one dice without exploding, but a 0% chance in 5th. Not sure on the exact numbers but this % gap get wider and wider as the TN goes up even with exploding. This gap becomes more noticeable as you get higher R&K levels. So maybe not the Ring dice but I do feel that the Skill dice need at least one 2 success spot on them to fix this.

Math isn't my strong suit, but some of these numbers seem a bit off (especially the 0% chance to hit TN 2).

A d10 from d10 R&K has a 1/10 chance to explode (normally), like you say. So, yes, a 1/10 (10%) chance to hit a TN 10.

One ring die has a 3/6 chance of rolling at least one success, and a 1/6 chance to explode. So that's a 1/12 (~8.3%) chance of hitting a TN 2 on one ring die. Explosions are resolved in Step 6 of a check, so keeping them is neither required nor limited by ring rank. You can hit TN 7 on one die, but I don't want to do the math.

Buuuut if you want to say New TN 2 = Old TN 10 (which I'm not really sold on), you do have a slightly better chance to hit Old TN 10 than New TN 2 with one die, buuuuuuuuuuut it's definitely not 0%.

But I'm not sure comparing them really matters at all. The systems use different dice, but more importantly, the new system has clear descriptions of what different ring and skill ranks represent. For example, most samurai who are doing their jobs would roll 5k2 (average ring, professional skill) (not most PCs, of course).

At TN 1, with one Ring die, you have a 50-50 chance of success. At TN 2, you have a 1/12 chance (because you have to hit that explosive success, and then roll another success).

That sounds rough, but remember that you get to choose your approach. If you're only rolling one Ring die, you've made a mistake. That's an unwashed Hida berserker trying to spread rumors at court, or a dainty Crane diplomat trying to hold firm in a sword fight. Not only are you trying to do something that you suck at, but you're doing it the worst possible way.

One thing I like about this system is that even a beginning character can handle himself in most situations, as long as he chooses the right Approach. That Hida isn't going to impress anyone at court, but if he mostly keeps quiet and stoic (Earth) he can probably avoid embarrassing himself. And in combat, the Doji can draw a sword and stay on his toes (Air), hopefully keeping his head attached to his shoulders.

21 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:

One thing I like about this system is that even a beginning character can handle himself in most situations, as long as he chooses the right Approach. That Hida isn't going to impress anyone at court, but if he mostly keeps quiet and stoic (Earth) he can probably avoid embarrassing himself. And in combat, the Doji can draw a sword and stay on his toes (Air), hopefully keeping his head attached to his shoulders.

This is wildly off the mark. Because of how dispositions work, sometime's it's beneficial to be Earth over Air when talking to certain characters. Rings no longer predispose any character to any sort of activity. Each ring is equally viable in all fields. The only thing that divides a Crane from a Crab is their techniques. Skills, Kata, Shuji, Equipment... these can all be obtained by either with few exceptions.

26 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

This is wildly off the mark. Because of how dispositions work, sometime's it's beneficial to be Earth over Air when talking to certain characters. Rings no longer predispose any character to any sort of activity. Each ring is equally viable in all fields. The only thing that divides a Crane from a Crab is their techniques. Skills, Kata, Shuji, Equipment... these can all be obtained by either with few exceptions.

While they can be, improving the school rank more or less efficiently will predispose characters from different schools towards different skills, kata and so on.

Sort of, but... 1) frankly there aren't that many reasons to increase your school rank unless you're shooting for a specific high-end kata or are one of the couple of schools that actually have very strong school techniques, 2) even if you do care a lot about rank progression, you can invest in rings, since every rank of every school rewards you for rings, and rolling 4 or 5 ring dice and 1 skill dice is pretty big.

10 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

I hope the dice are not locked in as is. And no not because they are custom dice. Because as they stand right now the success odds are off.

TN 1 in this game roughly translates to TN 5 in 4th. which is fine as you have about a 60% chance on both types of dice of getting a success. The problem comes that a TN 2 is roughly equal to a TN 10 in the old system. which you have a 10% changes in 4th to hit on one dice without exploding , but a 0% chance in 5th. Not sure on the exact numbers but this % gap get wider and wider as the TN goes up even with exploding. This gap becomes more noticeable as you get higher R&K levels. So maybe not the Ring dice but I do feel that the Skill dice need at least one 2 success spot on them to fix this.

5 hours ago, sidescroller said:

Math isn't my strong suit, but some of these numbers seem a bit off (especially the 0% chance to hit TN 2).

A d10 from d10 R&K has a 1/10 chance to explode (normally), like you say. So, yes, a 1/10 (10%) chance to hit a TN 10.

One ring die has a 3/6 chance of rolling at least one success, and a 1/6 chance to explode. So that's a 1/12 (~8.3%) chance of hitting a TN 2 on one ring die. Explosions are resolved in Step 6 of a check, so keeping them is neither required nor limited by ring rank. You can hit TN 7 on one die, but I don't want to do the math.

Buuuut if you want to say New TN 2 = Old TN 10 (which I'm not really sold on), you do have a slightly better chance to hit Old TN 10 than New TN 2 with one die, buuuuuuuuuuut it's definitely not 0%.

But I'm not sure comparing them really matters at all. The systems use different dice, but more importantly, the new system has clear descriptions of what different ring and skill ranks represent. For example, most samurai who are doing their jobs would roll 5k2 (average ring, professional skill) (not most PCs, of course).

You missed a key point to this, as highlighted above. " one dice without exploding"

So with out exploding it is a 0%

Just to clarify the point was that a 4th ed d10 did not need a explosion to hit a 10 where a 5th ed die does.

4 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

At TN 1, with one Ring die, you have a 50-50 chance of success. At TN 2, you have a 1/12 chance (because you have to hit that explosive success, and then roll another success).

That sounds rough, but remember that you get to choose your approach. If you're only rolling one Ring die, you've made a mistake. That's an unwashed Hida berserker trying to spread rumors at court, or a dainty Crane diplomat trying to hold firm in a sword fight. Not only are you trying to do something that you suck at, but you're doing it the worst possible way.

One thing I like about this system is that even a beginning character can handle himself in most situations, as long as he chooses the right Approach. That Hida isn't going to impress anyone at court, but if he mostly keeps quiet and stoic (Earth) he can probably avoid embarrassing himself. And in combat, the Doji can draw a sword and stay on his toes (Air), hopefully keeping his head attached to his shoulders.

Again I was talking without exploding. And yes for the 60% in the new system I was speaking of the skill dice. I could have been clearer there.

Second this issues is not as big at lower levels, but increase exponentially as the number of dice and the TNs goes up.

As I said, It could be fixed by adding 1 double success to the skill dice.