I feel like characters are slightly underpowered from the start. Do you agree? If so - how many xp do you think you would give a character to allow them to be properly powered as a starting character?

How much xp would you say is needed to be "mid tier" or "top tier" advancement?

I'm wanting to test some higher powered characters and wandered where I could jump to as a starting point to, say, make clan champions.

Considering how easy most enemies are, I think they're balanced where they should be, mechanically. I think what you're experiencing is that character creation doesn't feel satisfying.

24 XP feels pretty ok power-wise at the start. 3 Ring and 1-2 Skill dice, with occasional assistance makes you boldly tackle most of TN 2 and TN 3 challenges. 2-3 techniques bought from leftover XP, combined with generic Opportunity tables, make you also quite versatile.

Power level is fine... The character creation is just extremly unsatisfying.

What was so unsatisfying? I've put together 2 characters and enjoy the process.

I know the skill spread can seem a little limited but really you get xp pretty fast in the game and their aren't many skills. Would you rather their were more skills in the game? Maybe separate out some of the skills that seem a tad too generic?

32 minutes ago, Darksyde said:

What was so unsatisfying? I've put together 2 characters and enjoy the process.

I know the skill spread can seem a little limited but really you get xp pretty fast in the game and their aren't many skills. Would you rather their were more skills in the game? Maybe separate out some of the skills that seem a tad too generic?

What I think is that a character wants at least 1-2 more skills, and another kata or two to be ready. Many of the opportunity options for skill checks come from kata to increase defense, damage, crits, bypassing armor, and dodge. Some schools are lacking any of these which caused me to first feel like the system was incomplete, then I realized they were put into the kata parts and my character had none of them. Then there is the issue of Tactics and Fitness being integral to any skirmish (being your assessment check and your crit resist) and yet characters start without these skills.

I understand why they want the core of the system to be more generic and hallow, allowing you to fit your character in how you want - but I felt like I just couldn't do these things. A few experience and the allowance from the GM to train the character after 2-3 sessions can fill these out, but I kinda feel like the experience was thin, and frustrating with these skills and kata completely lacking from my character. It was almost like I was in a trial version or demo period, and that the full features would be unlocked after I wasted a few sessions being a complete scrub.

40 minutes ago, Darksyde said:

What was so unsatisfying? I've put together 2 characters and enjoy the process.

I know the skill spread can seem a little limited but really you get xp pretty fast in the game and their aren't many skills. Would you rather their were more skills in the game? Maybe separate out some of the skills that seem a tad too generic?

The 20 question format is rather gimicky and really did nothing for me on a narrative level.

I mean I get what they are going for. But if you want to go that route a proper life path system might have been the better solution.

The Samurai Heritage tables sticks out like a sore thumb and doesn't really fit in. Again a proper life path system could make this weird thing work, but it isn't there.

Currently it is absolute simplistic and doesn't allow for customization.

The clan bonus could have easily be part of the family. I mean you are part of that clan, once you choose the family.

For me they could have adapted the character creation in such a way:

1. Pick school (because this is what you want to play)
2. Pick family (including clan; the clan should belong to the family, if they ever want to revisit the diffrent school thing).
3. Pick 2 or 3 advantages (you need at least one passion and one distinction).
4. Pick a number of disadvantages equal to your advantages (you need at least one advesity and one anxiety).
5. Spend XP (Would be a question how much XP you get but here you would have character customization).
6. Write down your ninjo, giri and outburst.
7. You may raise your honor, glory or status by 10 and one of the remaining two by 5.

This would be all in all a much simpler and more flexible character creation.

It doesn't need randomness from the heritage table nor 20 questions from which at least 50% have no game effect, and you would end up with comparable characters.

Double post

33 minutes ago, Darksyde said:

What was so unsatisfying? I've put together 2 characters and enjoy the process.

I know the skill spread can seem a little limited but really you get xp pretty fast in the game and their aren't many skills. Would you rather their were more skills in the game? Maybe separate out some of the skills that seem a tad too generic?

I think one of my players put it best. He felt like he was making a character in an MMO. The creation system is so pick this package. I've created 4 character myself and watched 8 others try to make character. Due to the limited number of choices on skills and ring the characters stat wise become "this is the Lion build and this is the crane build". The only place where you get really any choice is with advantages and disadvantage. The problem here is since they are all the same cost you have some no brainier advantages, and these are least intrusive/bad disadvantages happening. Overall the whole character creation system is way to packaged, and the few choice you get are less about character flavor then finding the combo that best fit your build.

now don't get me wrong I like the idea of passions and anxieties. those I feel fit the setting well, but the rest of character creation feels like a paint by numbers book.

12 minutes ago, Yandia said:

The 20 question format is rather gimicky and really did nothing for me on a narrative level.

I mean I get what they are going for. But if you want to go that route a proper life path system might have been the better solution.

The Samurai Heritage tables sticks out like a sore thumb and doesn't really fit in. Again a proper life path system could make this weird thing work, but it isn't there.

Currently it is absolute simplistic and doesn't allow for customization.

The clan bonus could have easily be part of the family. I mean you are part of that clan, once you choose the family.

For me they could have adapted the character creation in such a way:

1. Pick school (because this is what you want to play)
2. Pick family (including clan; the clan should belong to the family, if they ever want to revisit the diffrent school thing).
3. Pick 2 or 3 advantages (you need at least one passion and one distinction).
4. Pick a number of disadvantages equal to your advantages (you need at least one advesity and one anxiety).
5. Spend XP (Would be a question how much XP you get but here you would have character customization).
6. Write down your ninjo, giri and outburst.
7. You may raise your honor, glory or status by 10 and one of the remaining two by 5.

This would be all in all a much simpler and more flexible character creation.

It doesn't need randomness from the heritage table nor 20 questions from which at least 50% have no game effect, and you would end up with comparable characters.

yeah most of this sounds great. I personally like the heritage tables. I have always used them in my 4th ed game, But there they had ones for each clan/faction and they where more geared to the clan/faction culture/tenets so it felt like it belonged. also the rule gave a few options for how to use them. I always ran the roll twice choose one, and if you don't like those choices you could spend 2xp to roll once more.

I like that there is enough description of each step to get me in to the setting while making my character. I try to come at new games from the outlook of a brand new player and I think that is why I like the 20 questions process they have in place. I get how that feels overly limiting and it makes me wonder if they could have an advanced side bar or appendix that is laid out more like you suggest.

25 minutes ago, Darksyde said:

I like that there is enough description of each step to get me in to the setting while making my character. I try to come at new games from the outlook of a brand new player and I think that is why I like the 20 questions process they have in place. I get how that feels overly limiting and it makes me wonder if they could have an advanced side bar or appendix that is laid out more like you suggest.

To me its not about coming at this as a new system, its not.

1. Quite a few games have tried this approach in the past, and it has never worked well.

2. 20 questions has always been part of the game. The only difference here is its use to control how you make your character and not as a suggestion to new players.

4 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

To me its not about coming at this as a new system, its not.

1. Quite a few games have tried this approach in the past, and it has never worked well.

2. 20 questions has always been part of the game. The only difference here is its use to control how you make your character and not as a suggestion to new players.

I actually really got into the 20 questions for my character, and I've gotten others into the mood of their character too. It actually falls flat when we go from "what was your greatest accomplishment" to "this is a list of prefab stuff." I think they should dress up the existing list of advantages / disadvantages to give them a bit of a narrative boost so they help drive creative thought in character creation rather than quell it with bland, inorganic suggestions.

The 20 questions part got me into my character, the mechanics dumped me back out... I hope they focus on improving the narrative build model. I don't mind the pieced together "All Scorpion have Skulduggery" but I do hope I get a few xp to actually custom my character out a bit - which is my main point with this thread. I feel like the starting package is great, but makes every character the same. If they just added some xp on the end, even just 8 or 12 xp I think, it might make a big difference in letting a character have some of its own shape.

I'm going to defend giving a Clan advantage, rather than simply a Family (which includes clan, b/c all family are in clan) advantage by saying 2 things. 1) Every family would just list the same thing. Why list the same thing 3-5 times when you can list it once as you pick your clan. You still have to pick your clan as part of picking your family anyway. For people who don't know about the clans this can also serve as an insight as they build down from Clan -> Family -> School (which I find is a typical build path even for people getting into the card game.) 2) It makes sense that everyone is going to have some working knowledge of something common in their area. In America we all know a bit about voting and taxes. I bet in Korea they know a bit about their military commanders. In Japan everyone has exposure to Anime whether they like it or not. To say all Scorpion have some minor understanding of skulduggery makes sense to me, whether that character is going to use it or not.

I'm all for a small pool of XP on top of chargen, but how are the 20 questions any less restricting than the old formula? It's basically the exact same thing as the old games but with more freedom, and if anything you get MORE options. Since you actually get options beyond clan family school and 1-2 skills. I'll be shocked if they don't add a bit of customizing xp, and at that point the 20 question approach is leaps and bounds less cookie cutter than the old game. It's not like the old 40xp went very far either. A couple attributes, a couple skills to rank 3 for mastery and maybe a handful of flavor skills you were missing. It's not this groundbreaking free form character creation it seems like people are making it out to be while they knock the 20 questions.

1 hour ago, llamaman88 said:

I'm all for a small pool of XP on top of chargen, but how are the 20 questions any less restricting than the old formula? It's basically the exact same thing as the old games but with more freedom, and if anything you get MORE options. Since you actually get options beyond clan family school and 1-2 skills. I'll be shocked if they don't add a bit of customizing xp, and at that point the 20 question approach is leaps and bounds less cookie cutter than the old game. It's not like the old 40xp went very far either. A couple attributes, a couple skills to rank 3 for mastery and maybe a handful of flavor skills you were missing. It's not this groundbreaking free form character creation it seems like people are making it out to be while they knock the 20 questions.

Not sure what game you where playing, but the old game gave you two trait increases, 7 skills, then forty xp points to spend how ever you wanted. It could be on traits, skills, or advantages and disadvantages your choice.

And as I said the 20 questions was always there it just didn't tell you what you had to buy at what point is suggested roleplaying themes.

So not sure what your talking about here.

I'm saying I'll be shocked if they don't add a pool of freebie points after the 20 questions. And once they do the 20 questions will end up having more options than the old game ever did. And I'm saying be real about that 40xp from 4e, most people spend over half of it on rings, snagged a mastery or two depending on their role and then some missing skills at 1. It's not super free form like WOD or anything. You're still the same as any other shinjo family moto bushi besides a handful of skills and some advantages. Which is the same here, only there's less skills and rings to raise/hand out.

18 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

I'm saying I'll be shocked if they don't add a pool of freebie points after the 20 questions. And once they do the 20 questions will end up having more options than the old game ever did. And I'm saying be real about that 40xp from 4e, most people spend over half of it on rings, snagged a mastery or two depending on their role and then some missing skills at 1. It's not super free form like WOD or anything. You're still the same as any other shinjo family moto bushi besides a handful of skills and some advantages. Which is the same here, only there's less skills and rings to raise/hand out.

Why would you be shocked? If they wanted to give a bit of XP for initial customization, why would they not include that in the beta?

They already did. You start the playtest scenario of Ronins Path (one they want you to play in this beta and provide feedback from) with 24 XP to customize your character.

Just now, WHW said:

They already did. You start the playtest scenario of Ronins Path (one they want you to play in this beta and provide feedback from) with 24 XP to customize your character.

Yes, because it’s a playtest scenario and using advanced characters makes it better for test purposes. It’s also needed to test the advancement rules. However, testing the character creation rules without extra XP now makes no sense if the idea is to add extra XP later on in the final rules.

I wouldn't call a scenario using advanced characters "a perfect place to start a new campaign", which the scenario claims itself to be. I would expect a campaign start to sport characters that are supposed to be out-of-chargen.

Again, I'm suspecting that there is no hard-locked XP-after-chargen in the chargen section, because various XP values for starting characters MIGHT be hidden in the unspoiled section of the GM part of the book talking about setting up your campaign. I would expect various XP setups to be put there, for more flexibility than hardlocking starting XP to always be Z.

I didn't even give my players the 24 XP... and they've had no problem succeeding in the first half of Ronin's Path. (this session, 4 fails from them.)

The ability to carefully pick ring and maximize your odds, coupled with easy assisting in narrative or social scenes... they aren't sneering at TN3, but they are pulling TN2's reliably and dropping for no/low strife.

34 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

I didn't even give my players the 24 XP... and they've had no problem succeeding in the first half of Ronin's Path. (this session, 4 fails from them.)

The ability to carefully pick ring and maximize your odds, coupled with easy assisting in narrative or social scenes... they aren't sneering at TN3, but they are pulling TN2's reliably and dropping for no/low strife.

All I hear Is my players have learned to game the system. That's not something to be proud of or a good sign for the game.

11 hours ago, Darksyde said:

I like that there is enough description of each step to get me in to the setting while making my character. I try to come at new games from the outlook of a brand new player and I think that is why I like the 20 questions process they have in place. I get how that feels overly limiting and it makes me wonder if they could have an advanced side bar or appendix that is laid out more like you suggest.

It is not only overly limiting. I also feel that the character creation was shoehorned into the 20 questions.

"What is your greatest accomplishment?" I am small.

The question should have been: What makes your character distinct? Because the answer to this question is a distinction.

The order is also weird.

I get the clan question is comes before the family and school. But the school should come become the family, because that is more defining for the character as a whole.

Or let's really dive into the narrativistic rabbit hole.

Start with: " I have found that the Way of the samurai is death . So how should your character die?" and attach a game effect to it.

Make that the central piece of the game and work honor, status, glory, ninjo and giri around that.

You are not playing cannon fooder, you will not die in a random skirmish. The death of a samurai is the high point of the story of his life and you are working towards that goal.

That is what I mean it doesn't do anything from a narrativistic point of view.

5 minutes ago, Yandia said:

"What is your greatest accomplishment?" I am small.

So maybe you managed to squeeze through a set of bars in a canal and were able to infiltrate a castle, throwing open the gate for an invading force! Or maybe you defeated a giant of a man in the topaz championship sumai tournament in spite of your size!

I mean, I see what your beef is. You want to pick a certain advantage but don’t want to shoe horn it in. Okay, how are you going to feel when you have to shoe horn the advantage into play? The ninja who chose small and used it to sneak into a castle? Yeah, I feel like he could find a use for it again. The person who couldn’t work it into a bit of backstory? Maybe you should pick something else.

The question is "What is your greatest achievement", yes, and as a part of that question, you pick an Advantage. That does not mean that Greatest Achievement == Advantage.

It's all laid out in the text between "9. What is your character's greatest achievement?" and "pick a distinction".