On 22.10.2017 at 7:39 PM, StriderZessei said:

You keep saying that it takes no skill, but I can't see it that way. Just like any other aspect of the game, it tests your ability to measure distance.

SLAM bombing an ace is no less challenging than arc dodging.

Depends on the number of ships actually. Slam Bombing Advanced Sensor Corran as last piece on the board is a challenge imho. Slam Bombing when still 4 interceptors are on the board is much easier, so many opportunities. Meanwhile ARC-Dodging and token stacking with Soontir against Corran works ok, meanwhile it can be quite the challenge against 3 protectorate fighters and a m3a mindlink-token battery with a tractor beam. Both mechanics work basically in the opposite directions. Personally I think it is easier to bomb with advanced sensor Nymm with genius than it is with Aslam k-wings.

Besides, bomblet miranda is doing something completely different and basically is just denies chasing and attacks from behind with this large death zone from the bombs.

11 hours ago, BVRCH said:

Haha you can think whatever you like about me. I've flown K-wings plenty, and it doesn't take a chess master to bomb with these slamming around everywhere, especially if you're running multiple intel agents, which a lot of people do. Now lets get to your argument, you've somehow cited a point I never made. I never said Nym was perfectly fine. He's as busted as triple K-wings, however I will say its easier to combat 1 Nym, than 3 K-wings. Now I have no problem with 1 K-wing, the issue is 3 of them, and this nerf will deter people from using 3, which is good for the game in my opinion. How I supposedly 'realised how difficult it is to actually win with it' without playing it, is another matter that doesn't make sense, but we'll leave that one for now. I think Paul Heaver would disagree with you when it comes to slam-bombing's usefulness on Miranda, in fact a lot of the nationals winners this year would too. Yes her ability with TLT is strong, and in current meta her pilot skill is hit or miss, but her slam-bombing is a huge reason as to why she is almost as broken as Nym. If this nerf is a way bring her down a peg whilst breaking down lists that stifle the game (including triple Gunboats as well, they would abuse Adv. slam in its current form), then I'm good with that.

It also doesn't take a 'chess master' to arc dodge with a multiple-action ace like Fel, yet so far you have repeatedly criticised SLAM-bombing as requiring no skill yet have not applied the same criteria to the latter.
You suggested that, by the designers words, SLAM-bombing was 'getting away from what the game is about' - i.e. 'dogfighting', yet those same designers happily released Nym in his current form and, since that release, have shown no indication that they consider him to be a problem, even though it is he doing the most list suppression at the moment.
Triple K SLAM-bomb lists are scarce, moreso now than ever before, and so I fail to see why anyone needs to be deterred from using them. Certainly at present there is no reason to take any K-Wing other than Miranda at all, unless one wanted to make more effective use of SLAM-bombing (since a lower PS works better with action bombs than Mirandas 8)
I suggested that you have not played three SLAM-bomb K-Wings enough to grasp how difficult it is to win with it (I never said it was amazingly difficult to execute the SLAM-bombings, merely pointed out that it is also not thoughtlessly simple as you claim), particularly against high-HP ships against whom the K's struggle to do enough damage. Any confusion here is a reading comprehension problem on your part, since you have completely misunderstood me,
Yes, Miranda has been known to use action bombs and yes, players have had success with doing so - however, preventing her doing so will not significantly 'take her down a peg' because she still has all her other strengths, and happily transitions into Bomblets instead. She's still everywhere, and in my own local meta (YMMV) most folk use Bomblets on her now.
Thinking that triple K-Wing lists are what 'stifle the game' is naive at best. It is the complete freedom of Sabine, and the ridiculous advantages of Nym, that are doing that. Once again, FFG have treated a symptom (ASLAM) instead of a cause (Sabine), and all this change is realistically going to accomplish is take away the one use generic K's had. Why would you field one now, when other ships can do the same things more efficiently?

so been away for the weekend where is the nerf to be found???

1 minute ago, Ghostrider58 said:

so been away for the weekend where is the nerf to be found???

Depends on your line of thinking, some people say fix, others say nerf

Its the Adv SLAM text on the Star Wing release that has changed from the text from the K Wing Adv SLAM.

1 hour ago, MalusCalibur said:

Why would you field one now, when other ships can do the same things more efficiently?

But that's also a point against K-Wings. If you want to play bombers, there are two options: K-Wings and Nym. They are so far ahead of the other bombing option that it is not even funny. The closest to reaching their efficiency is Deathfire, but even his economic costing isn't enough to overcome the shear amount of added utility ships like the K-Wing and Scrugg have.

Your question is one often asked about fielding another bomber than a K-Wing or Nym. Why take a TIE Bomber or a Punisher when the K-Wing can do it far more efficiently? Yes, there is price to consider, but a cheaper Bomber should still be viable for its reduced cost, not head and shoulders outclassed by something else. You see that even in the core set. An X-Wing outclasses a TIE on points and slots, but that's why you have two TIEs. There isn't that kind of relationship in bombers.

The "better than other options" argument was one of the main ones used against x7s. Why are K-Wings exempt from it?

Now, to be fair, some of these problems are universal to the game and there are other that need a good seeing to (Nym comes to mind), but that doesn't mean progress shouldn't be made. The ASLAM nerf actually makes me more optimistic about Nym seeing his day in court. It'll be late, but at least something will have been done.

1 minute ago, Archangelspiv said:

Depends on your line of thinking, some people say fix, others say nerf

well as I said I haven't read it yet so I'm not in either camp yet not that I've used said avdslam and bombs with my K-Wings yet.

3 minutes ago, Ghostrider58 said:

well as I said I haven't read it yet so I'm not in either camp yet not that I've used said avdslam and bombs with my K-Wings yet.

To save you some time, the change is that you can only do action bar actions for your free action after doing an Adv SLAM action.....action...

The K-Wing is still a really solid ship. Lots of health, lots of maneuverability with SLAM, a crew slot, bomb slots, ordnance slots, turret slot and PWT. It's now just a matter of adapting to flying it in a different way.

As @Larky Bobble pointed out, Advanced SLAM can be used to set up missile runs following the initial joust by picking up Target Locks at the same time as creating seperation:

Warden Squadron Pilot - Autoblaster Turret, Harpoon Missile, Extra Munitions, Advanced SLAM x 3

Or you could go the Long Range Scanners route:

Warden Squadron Pilot - Autoblaster Turret, Plasma Torpedoes, Weapons Engineer, Long Range Scanners x 3

Bombing K-Wings are still perfectly possible as well, however now you're more likely to look at traditional bombs rather than action bombs, and try to force your opponent into a chase:

Warden Squadron Pilot - Twin Laser Turret, Ion Bomb, Seismic Charges, Extra Munitions, Long Range Scanners
Warden Squadron Pilot - Twin Laser Turret, Ion Bomb, Seismic Charges, Extra Munitions, Long Range Scanners
Warden Squadron Pilot - Autoblaster Turret, Bomblet Generator, Sabine Wren, Long Range Scanners

Miranda is fine. She either transitions to Bomblet Generator or uses Experimental Interface as others have suggested, and remains a massive threat.

As with any rules change or update (or new release for that matter), it's just a matter of adapting.

14 hours ago, SabineKey said:

On the Phantom front, perhaps. Hindsight is 20/20. Only recently have I heard people look back at the Phantom nerf and think it could be lifted. At the time, everyone I heard talk about it thought it was the right solution.

As for making ordinance relevant, @clanofwolves's recent topic title of "Overcompensation" comes to mind.

The whole "x7 nerfed, but not k4" is distressing. While i personally don't think the k4 needs a nerf, a precedence has been set with x7.

I feel the same with changing the text on cards. I argued against it for a long time. But that Pandora's Box was pulled wide open a long time ago. So, if it's already too late, might as well use it.

Yep. Makes me sad that it's come to this, tbh.

I'll have to read the "Overcompensation" thread. Didn't see that one. Thanks for the recommendation.

I don't think the K4 (or X7) should be (have been) nerfed either, fwiw, but as you said, the precedent has been set, and the nerf to X7 is at least fluffy enough that I can comprehend it.

where is this new errata located??? I can't seem to find it, my search fu is weak...

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 9:52 AM, Archangelspiv said:

To save you some time, the change is that you can only do action bar actions for your free action after doing an Adv SLAM action.....action...

Ahh ok that make sense sort of...

6 minutes ago, Ghostrider58 said:

where is this new errata located??? I can't seem to find it, my search fu is weak...

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/10/25/new-squadron-formations/

Thats the link to the FFG news article which leads to everything.

5 minutes ago, Ghostrider58 said:

Ahh ok that make sense sort of...

Stops Action bombs from being the thing that they are for Warden K's. Its in the article in the above link.

Can't even AdvSLAM and flip crits. Sheesh. Such a stupid over-reaction.

thanks for the link, read the article and downloaded the updated FAQ...not sure how I feel about the change just yet..

On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 8:00 PM, Archangelspiv said:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/10/25/new-squadron-formations/

Thats the link to the FFG news article which leads to everything.

Stops Action bombs from being the thing that they are for Warden K's. Its in the article in the above link.

On 10/25/2017 at 7:03 PM, Jeff Wilder said:

Can't even AdvSLAM and flip crits. Sheesh. Such a stupid over-reaction.

This was something I noticed as well.

I still don't get how people cannot accept that this nerf was needed.

The Punisher, K-Wing and Scurrg are the same class of ship, with similar capabilities and pricing. Two of these ships are meta defining, top tier ships that are as auto include as it can get with bombing lists.

The third ship was for the longest time THE worst ship in the game, and only through several fixes became playable. It's not great, its okay.

Now we know it is unlikely that it will get buffed directly, either through errata (pretty much never going to happen. [PROVE ME WRONG FFG!]) or a re-release, which is also unlikely, given the sort of ship it is.

If you think that the previous state of affairs was BETTER than the one we have now... well

K-Wings back in stock at miniatures market. I just bought 2 of them.

1 hour ago, RufusDaMan said:

If you think that the previous state of affairs was BETTER than the one we have now... well

I don't even have to have an opinion on that, because I'm capable of recognizing that there's a huge gulf of possibility between "previous state of affairs" and "where we are now" that was never even considered. Judging from posts here, most people can't even see it. It's like trying to argue about "green" with color-blind people.

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

I don't even have to have an opinion on that, because I'm capable of recognizing that there's a huge gulf of possibility between "previous state of affairs" and "where we are now" that was never even considered. Judging from posts here, most people can't even see it. It's like trying to argue about "green" with color-blind people.

Clearly most people are wrong then. The only logical conclusion, since THEY cannot be as smart and wise as you are, obviously. So please, enlighten me: What are these possibilities that would make everyone happy, but we are just too stupid to see it? How can we keep triple k-wings while simultaneously removing from the game?

It is very obvious that removing triple slam bombing wardens was the intention of the errata. It also removed torp scouts. On purpose. You can't say that the errata was bad, because it accomplished its goal, and the player base is generally happy.

These lists weren't removed because they are OP. They were removed because they were unhealthy for the game. That is the solution. In a perfect world, with more testing and so on... triple wardens would never have existed.

I've mentioned possibilities literally dozens of times in these forums. You probably ignored them then. If you're actually interested now, find 'em yourself.