On 21.10.2017 at 0:03 AM, Nestyr said:

Why FFG? Why?

Yes, I love the new goodies with the Assault Gunboat. It is enough to make this die hard Rebel sign up to the Imperial Academy. But why, why, why did you go and change Advanced SLAM. It completely nerfs one of the best things about K-Wings: Advanced SLAMming over my opponent, and dropping Cluster Mines on him!

I have been running three Warden Squadron pilots with Advanced SLAM, Extra Munitions, Cluster Mines, Sabine, and two Bombardiers for ages. It has been competitive, but not overpowered, for many waves. Now, all of a sudden, my list is nerfed.

This was a great list for teaching my opponent the dangers of bombs, long before Nim came along - it was always amusing when you Slam, then drop three Cluster Mines on a large ship, to see the look on your opponent’s face when you tell them they have to roll three lots of two dice damage, with no chance to prevent it.

I found this list to be great fun to play. Once your ordnance expired, you had to relay on your A2 turrets to win you the game, which resulted in some of the most tense, most enjoyable games I and my opponents have played. Sure, they hated the Mines, but they had a chance to even up the score in the end game.

Sadly, no more. I guess it just became impossible for the Rebels to find the parts...

This tactic was even a selling point in the advance preview article for the K-Wing, which originally piqued my interest. I guess this article now needs to be redacted, or come with a disclaimer that the listed tactic is no longer possible due to card changes.

I’d be interested to know if K-Wings were considered when this change was introduced, or if it is just an unexpected byproduct of the change. I guess Miranda has proved to be too much of a pain for her opponents, to the detriment of all the other K-Wings out there. I think I know how all the Manaroo players out there felt, now.

The rules of engament change. If you are unable to adapt you will have to stay behind.

7 hours ago, BVRCH said:

This nerf was to bring down triple K's, not Miranda. It has taken Miranda down a peg as she needs EI to Slambomb now, but it flat out kills triple K bombers. Rightly so in my opinion. The dev's spoke about lists like the triple K's in the S&V podcast and stated that this sort of play, whether you enjoy it or not, is not in any way 'dogfighting' and takes away from the game's core fundamentals. I bet nobody that played against your list enjoyed the game. Good riddance I say.

EI is unique so no more triple K slam bombers. Miranda for sure, but only single Slambomb K's will be achievable now.

So triple-K bombers, who have to judge distances carefully with their painfully limited dial so as not to waste their expensive and limited mines (which they struggle to do significant damage without) and who are vulnerable to PS sniping and alpha strikes, are not 'dogfighting', but Scum Nym, who can happily ram into his target and bomb it anyway without consequence (thanks to Genius. He also doesn't damage himself and cannot waste his bombs since they are infinite), and who also has access to either Twin Laser Turret (the best turret weapon in the game) or the maligned Accuracy Corrector/Autoblaster Turret combination that allows him to deal two unblockable damage without needing actions (rendering common counterplays like stress or blocking redundant), all at PS10 so he has near perfect board information (insanely useful with a 'reveal-drop' bomb VS an 'action-drop' one), is perfectly fine? Your argument makes no sense.
Your condescending remarks about the triple-K list suggest you never played it yourself and realised just how difficult it is to actually win with it. Miranda, as mentioned before, doesn't care at all about the change since she's far better off with Bomblet Generator than action bombs, given her higher PS, and her ability + TLT are what make her so strong, not SLAM-bombing.

6 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Sort of, but not really. As long as you didn't bump, you could trivially drop cluster mines on someone. Or right in front of them if you bumped them with the slam maneuver.

It's tough to determine if your potential maneuver is going to not bump or overlap an asteroid. Its not difficult to land a cluster mine or proximity mine on a ship's face. You just need to get "close enough". It's not anything like a precision flying that an Ace requires. It's just bumbling around the board in comparison.

Except that Advanced SLAM specifically denies the free action if you bump or hit an obstacle with the SLAM move - so actually, dropping a mine on the target successfully is far more difficult than 'bumbling around the board' as you claim. The potential area of mine drops is quite large, yes, but the K-Wing player has to pick one move, which therefore limits them to one SLAM speed, and thus cuts down that potential area considerably. The opponent would need to predict the most likely move (unthinkable in X-Wing! `¬¬) and then dial in a move of their own to avoid the bombing area. Yes, there are times that the mine could be dropped in such a way that it's not possible to avoid, but it is FAR more difficult to engineer that than folk apparently think, given the limited dial of the K-Wing.
Arguing that flying an ace somehow requires more skill than that is ridiculous - at best it's about the same.

I have to admit it feels a wierd choice - by far the bigger irritant is miranda doni, and most of the time I see her she comes with a Bomblet generator - and even if you desperately needed cluster mines, for her specifically the only effect is requiring a point to up her to the (unique) experimental interface.

15 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

Yes, it is harder to outmaneuver ships that are designed for being elusive. The arc dodgers are made to counter jousters. And turrets are made to counter arc dodgers. There is nothing wrong with that.

The problem starts when you add bombs, which are good against everything. The problem escalates when you slap bombs on turret carriers, and gets even worse when you add the ability to shoot powerful ordnance. Now if we mention that you could place these bombs before the opponent has a chance to react, and doing this in a surprisingly large area of the game area, things start to get a bit out of hand.

The K-wing, if fully loaded, can answer jousters by launching a powerful alpha á la Miranda, while dropping bombs directly on them. It can also answer arc-dodgers by simply moving to them and placing a bomb on top of them, often killing them in one round. In the case of not being able to do that, because the arc dodger managed to avoid the impossibly large zone of death, usually by forgoing its chance to attack modified, or at all, the K-wing can still perform a double attack with its TLT. It might not do much, but it only needs to hit 3 times during a game to finish of Soontir.
And it can regen.

Now removing a part of these tricks does NOT make the ship bad.

The K-wing can still act as a surprising flanker, still being one of the fastest moving ships in the game. The K-wing can still act as a bomber, like pretty much every other bomber in the game, with the added bonus of being able to get the **** away, and carrying Sabine, with a TLT. The K-wing can still do all of its tricks a little bit weaker, but only one of them. The only loss of this nerf is the triple K-wing list. A singular K-wing will be able to perform almost identically, with a slight increase in price, and a slight decrease in power, but I think that was warranted.

I don't think its fair to bring up jousters in this discussion, since they are universally ******. There is very little a low PS arc-locked ship can do with such a high PS meta, filled with powerful, and mobile ships. Nym, Dash and Miranda can move around the board as they please, and so can the PS 11 alphastrike. As it was brought up by others, the average firing arc of the ships played has been increasing steadily, and the older arc-locked ships can barely hold up.
The Kimogilla, the Gunboat and the Silencer all have something special about them. The Kimogilla has a murder-zone, the Gunboat can attack after slamming, and the Silencer is a beast of an arc-dodger.
What does the humble low PS X-wing or even Khiraxz have in comparison? They don't move fancy, they don't have fancy mechanics, they don't do anything. There are better platforms for ordnance, there are better platforms for raw damage, there are better platforms for mobility. The only jouster list nowadays is based on insane survival abilities synergizing to allow for crazy value.

This is one of my biggest issues with the game. A ship needs to be special to be even considered viable, and most older ships just aren't, or if they are lucky, they have 1 pilot that can do some interesting thing, usually with 1 stapled build. And traditional arc-locked jousters are the least special of them all. Which is sad, because I like playing them.

I agree with most of what you're saying. The only part we diverge on, is that I think you are really overselling the effectiveness of the PS2 K-wing. That ship is little use as an Alpha striker, as it can be either A) be arcdodged or B) be blown off the table before it shoots. Outside of it's niche roll as a SLAM bomber, it doesn't do anything that can't be done more efficiently by another ship, and I think that's the OP's point.

For the record, I'm happy for the nerf myself, have had my Quickdraw 1 shot by cluster mines far too many times. I just don't consider SLAM bombs any less skillful than high PS repositioning. Nor do I consider K-wings any more surviveable than Aces.

Otherwise, good points.

Irrespective of the power level of wardens in tourneys, Adv Slam is a NPE. I made the mistake of playing K wings twice against my nephew; from loving the game, he never played another. . .

They should never have let it exist as it was. I like slaloming with slam but the mines part was stupid. Fixing it was not (stupid).

1 hour ago, Larky Bobble said:

They should never have let it exist as it was. I like slaloming with slam but the mines part was stupid. Fixing it was not (stupid).

Maybe it shouldn't have existed as it was. Only for limited imaginations does that then become "it shouldn't exist in a useful form at all."

Again, there is a wide gulf between "nerfing SLAM to lessen SLAM-bombing's range and ease" and "eradicating AdvSLAM's usefulness to K-wings, and thus eradicating generic K-wings."

The tendency to go "full nuke" with stupid-but-easy fixes is exactly why the game keeps oscillating from one OP NPE to another, and as far as I can tell the oscillation is actually getting worse.

There are fixes to SLAM-bombing that aren't stupid. The one FFG chose is absolutely stupid.

For a long time, when people were so insistent on making Adv SLAM "Action Bar" to kill SLAM-mines, I was like "no way, that means A-SLAM isn't worth what it's printed on". This is still true, now there is literally no reason to take it on a K-Wing, you can much easier get the same effects with different or no cards and playing slightly different tactics. Now, to be fair to FFG, they waited until a new ship which MASSIVELY benefits from A-SLAM before changing it, ******* over K-Wings on what was clearly always in some level an intended mechanic but obviously did have some problems. Though I supposed since there's ways to get multiple uses of out Illicit, you might do some dumb stuff with Burnout SLAM. I'm sure while SLAM-bombing not as easy street as some people like to say, at the same time once you practice it also can't be too hard to know what pair of maneuvers in a SLAM put you where to just erase the target with your choice of bomb.

It does not help that FFG is, at the same time they're announcing their Adv SLAM change also stating they have a new rebel heavy bomber, focused entirely on bombs, which appears to be intended to be flown with multiples and has a new trick to place bombs on/near enemies and is also a more expensive product. Now, I don't think FFG is actually thinking that sinisterly about obsolescing products, the B/SF-17 is tied to a movie release they don't control, and with "Crimson Leader" type **** back, if I was FFG I wouldn't want to release RZ-2 A-wings yet either. But the B/SF-17 clearly is going to fit into this bombing niche K-Wings were previously filling with a different mechanic which people will probably be less mad over. That's good if you like the style, but doesn't help you if you liked the ship it was on, and perhaps own three of them already.

If K-Wings are basically non-existent except for Miranda in like two years, maybe they'll release something to benefit it, but for now it really does feel like "okay, you had your fun, but people complain this is against the spirit too much, we really should invent an entirely new way to make bombs actually work after XIII waves and we'll scrap the old one because it's too nofun". And that does suck if you actually like to play K-Wings, no ups and downs about it.

(It also should make Imperial players less whiny about ink changes always screwing them over - this alteration kills a Rebel archetype hunting their precious aces and only benefits them in a cool new ship)

7 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Maybe it shouldn't have existed as it was. Only for limited imaginations does that then become "it shouldn't exist in a useful form at all."

Again, there is a wide gulf between "nerfing SLAM to lessen SLAM-bombing's range and ease" and "eradicating AdvSLAM's usefulness to K-wings, and thus eradicating generic K-wings."

The tendency to go "full nuke" with stupid-but-easy fixes is exactly why the game keeps oscillating from one OP NPE to another, and as far as I can tell the oscillation is actually getting worse.

There are fixes to SLAM-bombing that aren't stupid. The one FFG chose is absolutely stupid.

You could argue that it is still useful as a target lock mechanism for K wings that are missile/torp platforms as opposed to bomb or turret platforms. At PS 2 the adv slam is very useful in that aspect...

7 minutes ago, Larky Bobble said:

You could argue that it is still useful as a target lock mechanism for K wings that are missile/torp platforms as opposed to bomb or turret platforms. At PS 2 the adv slam is very useful in that aspect...

... It's really not. Yes, someone "could argue" it. It's a terrible argument, but someone could do it.

(I suppose I should point out at least one of the flaws: AdvSLAM? Or Guidance Chips? Pick one. That's not the only problem, but they should all be pretty obvious.)

Honestly, if you're hard up for TLs, LRS is 0 points, you can just slow-roll, or SLAM far away and come back around for a TL - not that it helps much since the K-Wing can no longer engage while slamming, unlike the Gunboat. If K-Wings had access to OS-1's ability, they'd love to still ASLAM. Alas.

Advanced slam will still be useful on non-gunboats.

Great for blocks, running away etc. you just can’t SLAM across someone and drop an action bomb without experimental interface.

9 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

Irrespective of the power level of wardens in tourneys, Adv Slam is a NPE. I made the mistake of playing K wings twice against my nephew; from loving the game, he never played another. . .

They should never have let it exist as it was. I like slaloming with slam but the mines part was stupid. Fixing it was not (stupid).

Really? An NPE?

Maybe, depending on the age of your nephew, you should have considered your opposition.

NPE?

smh

16 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Great for blocks, running away etc.

This has nothing to do with Advanced SLAM. Focus and or TL helps with none of this.

On 10/22/2017 at 4:52 AM, DamianR said:

The problem is, the people that don't like A-SLAM bombing are most likely the players that flew the aces. They didn't realise (or perhaps care) that for low PS ships, never getting to shoot at an Ace with two repositioning actions and full board knowledge, really isn't much fun. The low PS generic pilots had to get good at blocking or just lose, never having rolled an effective attack.

However, when a Warden bomb truck with Connor nets and A-SLAM, the tables were turned. Suddenly the low PS ship had the full board knowledge and a tool that could reduce that ace to actionless or space dust (which usually followed on anyway).

Really, there is just as much skill in being able to position yourself then pull off a bombing run over an ace from the edge of RB3, as there is as putting in a 2 hard and then working out the combo of boost/barrel roll to dodge arcs. Both usually have full board knowledge on their side.

I agree. Hence, my comment. Your post gives me hope that all the folk that post on this board aren't emotional wrecks.

On 10/22/2017 at 0:12 AM, SabineKey said:

Then don't.

Fair enough.

It's still the case that too many want to nerf everything (read: anything that's difficult to overcome) until nothing is advantageous. Then everyone's equally boring.

Go for it.

5 minutes ago, Scopes said:

Really? An NPE?

Maybe, depending on the age of your nephew, you should have considered your opposition.

NPE?

smh

I feel the same way about people who call arc dodging an NPE. It's a matter of opinion.

On 10/22/2017 at 4:52 AM, DamianR said:

The problem is, the people that don't like A-SLAM bombing are most likely the players that flew the aces. They didn't realise (or perhaps care) that for low PS ships, never getting to shoot at an Ace with two repositioning actions and full board knowledge, really isn't much fun. The low PS generic pilots had to get good at blocking or just lose, never having rolled an effective attack.

However, when a Warden bomb truck with Connor nets and A-SLAM, the tables were turned. Suddenly the low PS ship had the full board knowledge and a tool that could reduce that ace to actionless or space dust (which usually followed on anyway).

Really, there is just as much skill in being able to position yourself then pull off a bombing run over an ace from the edge of RB3, as there is as putting in a 2 hard and then working out the combo of boost/barrel roll to dodge arcs. Both usually have full board knowledge on their side.

I agree with you on several of your points, especially your last one. I flew Warden ASlamming Connor Net/Ion Bomb lists to small success ever since the K Wing was released. If it hadn't been for the ASlam, the ship would be really tough to use, I think.

Also...to play devil's advocate...Shouldn't an ace be that? An ace? A pilot that can read his opponent's mind? Hence the high PS? I thought that was one of the things that was good about the game, even though it was a PITA to play against sometimes. Yes...it's not fun to play against at times per se, but that's the appeal of a PS 2 Warden. Go ahead and arc-dodge me. I still have a chance to hit you because of ASlam and action munitions.

1 minute ago, Scopes said:

Fair enough.

It's still the case that too many want to nerf everything (read: anything that's difficult to overcome) until nothing is advantageous. Then everyone's equally boring.

Go for it.

That is true, but there are things that need toning down. Deadeye torps was one because it suppressed the majority of Rebel lists. Based on what I have seen and heard, I view SLAMing bombs to have a similar effect on Ace style of ships, therefore should be toned down accordingly. There is a difference between a bad matchup and a suppression.

5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I feel the same way about people who call arc dodging an NPE. It's a matter of opinion.

Right. I agree with you. Arc dodging is, IMHO, a fundamental of the game. As are Action upgrades.

But when the bandwagon gets to the point that it's changing the game, I get sad. This game was fairly perfect before all of the nerfs. Had the phatom not been nerfed, and all other things being equal with the game since that wave, would the Phantom nerf still be needed? Wouldn't it be nice to have things the way they were? Perhaps there wouldn't be a need to reprint cards or reprice upgrades. Perhaps the Phantom would be competitive in this ordinace meta.

And...the howls to make ordinance relevant were met. Now we've gone to the extreme that ordinance is OP and an "NPE". I cringe every time I see that acronym.

Further:

for purposes of fluff, I think the X7 change was okay. That, and some of the changes to a few of the EPTs (Daredevil, I'm looking at you) were warranted.

But how do you not nerf the Scum "X7 Style" version (do a green move, acquire a TL) as well?

THAT gets frustrating. I see where @Jeff Wilder is coming from. Taking the path of least resistance isn't good for the game.

5 minutes ago, Scopes said:

But how do you not nerf the Scum "X7 Style" version (do a green move, acquire a TL) as well?

X7 is -2 points and a title, for which there are only 2 choices. K4 is 3 points and fills a slot where there a multiple choices. Does K4 suit one specific build? Absolutely.

FFG devs have said Adv SLAMing Wardens were not the direction they wanted dog fighting to go, hence the change. Which i am glad for, play EI Miranda if you want to run that play.

14 hours ago, SabineKey said:

That is true, but there are things that need toning down. Deadeye torps was one because it suppressed the majority of Rebel lists. Based on what I have seen and heard, I view SLAMing bombs to have a similar effect on Ace style of ships, therefore should be toned down accordingly. There is a difference between a bad matchup and a suppression.

Right. But EVERY list has a bad matchup, no? To me, that's an axiom of the game. At least it should be.

Perhaps we're to this point because folk haven't found the right ingredients to counter the current meta big guys. ****, we have so many releases in such a short period of time that we can't even get our feet wet with the current wave before new stuff is released. The Vassal folk get to try all the new stuff out as soon as it's encoded. Where's the chance to smell the roses and figure stuff out?

And yes, I am pretty sure I'm not the guy that's going to figure that out. I'm a Filthy Casual™, after all.

Regarding toning down...I agree with you there. Scum faction is difficult to deal with. Dengar, Scum Nym, and the Romulan-looking ship are a PITA to play against whether flown competently or not. However, the victory is SO MUCH SWEETER when I beat a list with one of those 3 in it. Same with flying against RAClo or Fairship. Bring 'em. I relish the challenge. Just dont' eff with my tools so I still have a chance.

1 minute ago, Scopes said:

Right. I agree with you. Arc dodging is, IMHO, a fundamental of the game. As are Action upgrades.

But when the bandwagon gets to the point that it's changing the game, I get sad. This game was fairly perfect before all of the nerfs. Had the phatom not been nerfed, and all other things being equal with the game since that wave, would the Phantom nerf still be needed? Wouldn't it be nice to have things the way they were? Perhaps there wouldn't be a need to reprint cards or reprice upgrades. Perhaps the Phantom would be competitive in this ordinace meta.

And...the howls to make ordinance relevant were met. Now we've gone to the extreme that ordinance is OP and an "NPE". I cringe every time I see that acronym.

Further:

for purposes of fluff, I think the X7 change was okay. That, and some of the changes to a few of the EPTs (Daredevil, I'm looking at you) were warranted.

But how do you not nerf the Scum "X7 Style" version (do a green move, acquire a TL) as well?

THAT gets frustrating. I see where @Jeff Wilder is coming from. Taking the path of least resistance isn't good for the game.

On the Phantom front, perhaps. Hindsight is 20/20. Only recently have I heard people look back at the Phantom nerf and think it could be lifted. At the time, everyone I heard talk about it thought it was the right solution.

As for making ordinance relevant, @clanofwolves's recent topic title of "Overcompensation" comes to mind.

The whole "x7 nerfed, but not k4" is distressing. While i personally don't think the k4 needs a nerf, a precedence has been set with x7.

I feel the same with changing the text on cards. I argued against it for a long time. But that Pandora's Box was pulled wide open a long time ago. So, if it's already too late, might as well use it.

11 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

So triple-K bombers, who have to judge distances carefully with their painfully limited dial so as not to waste their expensive and limited mines (which they struggle to do significant damage without) and who are vulnerable to PS sniping and alpha strikes, are not 'dogfighting', but Scum Nym, who can happily ram into his target and bomb it anyway without consequence (thanks to Genius. He also doesn't damage himself and cannot waste his bombs since they are infinite), and who also has access to either Twin Laser Turret (the best turret weapon in the game) or the maligned Accuracy Corrector/Autoblaster Turret combination that allows him to deal two unblockable damage without needing actions (rendering common counterplays like stress or blocking redundant), all at PS10 so he has near perfect board information (insanely useful with a 'reveal-drop' bomb VS an 'action-drop' one), is perfectly fine? Your argument makes no sense.
Your condescending remarks about the triple-K list suggest you never played it yourself and realised just how difficult it is to actually win with it. Miranda, as mentioned before, doesn't care at all about the change since she's far better off with Bomblet Generator than action bombs, given her higher PS, and her ability + TLT are what make her so strong, not SLAM-bombing.

Haha you can think whatever you like about me. I've flown K-wings plenty, and it doesn't take a chess master to bomb with these slamming around everywhere, especially if you're running multiple intel agents, which a lot of people do. Now lets get to your argument, you've somehow cited a point I never made. I never said Nym was perfectly fine. He's as busted as triple K-wings, however I will say its easier to combat 1 Nym, than 3 K-wings. Now I have no problem with 1 K-wing, the issue is 3 of them, and this nerf will deter people from using 3, which is good for the game in my opinion. How I supposedly 'realised how difficult it is to actually win with it' without playing it, is another matter that doesn't make sense, but we'll leave that one for now. I think Paul Heaver would disagree with you when it comes to slam-bombing's usefulness on Miranda, in fact a lot of the nationals winners this year would too. Yes her ability with TLT is strong, and in current meta her pilot skill is hit or miss, but her slam-bombing is a huge reason as to why she is almost as broken as Nym. If this nerf is a way bring her down a peg whilst breaking down lists that stifle the game (including triple Gunboats as well, they would abuse Adv. slam in its current form), then I'm good with that.

7 minutes ago, Scopes said:

Right. But EVERY list has a bad matchup, no? To me, that's an axiom of the game. At least it should be.

Perhaps we're to this point because folk haven't found the right ingredients to counter the current meta big guys. ****, we have so many releases in such a short period of time that we can't even get our feet wet with the current wave before new stuff is released. The Vassal folk get to try all the new stuff out as soon as it's encoded. Where's the chance to smell the roses and figure stuff out?

And yes, I am pretty sure I'm not the guy that's going to figure that out. I'm a Filthy Casual™, after all.

Regarding toning down...I agree with you there. Scum faction is difficult to deal with. Dengar, Scum Nym, and the Romulan-looking ship are a PITA to play against whether flown competently or not. However, the victory is SO MUCH SWEETER when I beat a list with one of those 3 in it. Same with flying against RAClo or Fairhship. Bring 'em. I relish the challenge. Just dont' eff with my tools so I still have a chance.

Again, there is a difference between a bad match up and a suppressing list. RAC/lo is a bad match up against big base, low agi ships, but its still not autokilling those lists. Heck, even Deadeye Torpboats had bad match ups versus a well-flown Imp Aces list.

As for counters to meta lists, unfortunately, the counters I know off are already in the top meta. Want to fight bombs? Use turrets! Want to get past alpha strike damage? The damage mitigation of FSR will do that for you. And people are looking for more counters, but haven't had tons of success.

Hi all,

This conversation has been fun, but I feel we are going off base from my OP, which was, "waah, my triple K-Wing list has been nerfed. Was this intentional, or a by-product of the release of the new Imperial gunboat?". All this talk about Miranda, Nym, etc. is really not relevant to the OP (but is very interesting).

Regarding the original topic, I think I will take the (sometimes veiled) advice to simply "git gud", and learn to fly something other than my two-trick pony, once Advance SLAM is FAQ'ed.

I will still look for new ways to wreak havoc with my PS 2 Wardens. As others have said, it is still a solid frame. I'm sure I can come up with something to challenge my opponents, and it's only a matter of time before some new upgrade comes along that will "make K-Wings great again". I just love this ship...

I do resent the implications that people who fly this list are "unskilled" and "the lowest of the low". For the record, those who flew against me when I used this list were often unhappy to face it at the start of the game, but generally commented that it was one of the toughest, but best, games they had had in a while, regardless of whether they won or lost against it - I've heard this from both casual players, and National players. As previously commented, once the bombs were gone, and I was attacking with A2 PWTs for the remainder of the game, things evened up pretty quickly.

I agree that this list does remove the dog-fighting aspect of X-Wing, but so do many other lists, some of which even make, or made, the meta, yet they were/ have not been nerfed.

If people want to continue discussing other issues that were raised here, can they create new threads for them?

Cheers,

Jeff