35 minutes ago, DamianR said:

The problem is, the people that don't like A-SLAM bombing are most likely the players that flew the aces. They didn't realise (or perhaps care) that for low PS ships, never getting to shoot at an Ace with two repositioning actions and full board knowledge, really isn't much fun. The low PS generic pilots had to get good at blocking or just lose, never having rolled an effective attack.

However, when a Warden bomb truck with Connor nets and A-SLAM, the tables were turned. Suddenly the low PS ship had the full board knowledge and a tool that could reduce that ace to actionless or space dust (which usually followed on anyway).

Really, there is just as much skill in being able to position yourself then pull off a bombing run over an ace from the edge of RB3, as there is as putting in a 2 hard and then working out the combo of boost/barrel roll to dodge arcs. Both usually have full board knowledge on their side.

So you are saying a ship with both a pwt and the turret slot is unable to get a shot at an arc dodger because it's lower PS?

I'm not sure you know how turrets work.

Also, the PS 9 pilot pays points for that ability, the PS 2 pilot doesn't. There are low PS generic pilots, and high PS unique pilots for every ship. You pay more for the latter because it's supposed to be better. It's not about being fair, it's about doing something you shouldn't be able to do.

Ppl be like

"my low PS generic pilots are not able to destroy most small ships with perfect knowledge of the gameboard. That ship with crew, ordnance, turrets (both primary and secondary) is now useless... USELESS I TELL YOU. "

If you ever feel like your k-wings suck, play a bit with punishers.

And you know... Even if wardens were out (they aren't), rebels still have both Nym AND Miranda as bomber aces. Still best bombers around.

One list, a huge npe for most imperials, is dead. Not the archetype, or the ship. Quit your *******.

3 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

So you are saying a ship with both a pwt and the turret slot is unable to get a shot at an arc dodger because it's lower PS?

I'm not sure you know how turrets work.

2 dice PWT vs AT ace? I'm not sure you remember how Autothrusters and a token stack works...

And I'm referring to the height of Ace-wing, before the K-wing was released.

Even then, we still saw aces in the meta. It wasn't until Sabine was released in wave 8 and the cluster bomb was changed from hits only to hits and crits doing damage for K-wing bombers to become a powerful tool.

3 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Also, the PS 9 pilot pays points for that ability, the PS 2 pilot doesn't. There are low PS generic pilots, and high PS unique pilots for every ship. You pay more for the latter because it's supposed to be better. It's not about being fair, it's about doing something you shouldn't be able to do.

Well given that A-SLAM is a 2 point upgrade and has to work with 5-8 points worth of other upgrades (EM, the action bomb and Sabine crew), I'd say the Warden has been paying for the ability to do what it has been doing for four waves.

17 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

So you are saying a ship with both a pwt and the turret slot is unable to get a shot at an arc dodger because it's lower PS?

I'm not sure you know how turrets work.

Soontir that has spent both his actions to arc dodge has a Focus.

2 dice turrets vs 4 greens, autothrusters and a Focus token render you mathematically invulnerable unless you blank out. Even if you do blank out, Autothrusters+Palpatine can still make sure you take no damage.

The problem wasn't getting one shot on Soontir. The problem was getting 2-3 shots on Soonrir, because unblocked he's largely invulnerable to a single 2 or 3 dice shot.

6 minutes ago, DamianR said:

2 dice PWT vs AT ace? I'm not sure you remember how Autothrusters and a token stack works...

And I'm referring to the height of Ace-wing, before the K-wing was released.

Even then, we still saw aces in the meta. It wasn't until Sabine was released in wave 8 and the cluster bomb was changed from hits only to hits and crits doing damage for K-wing bombers to become a powerful tool.

Well given that A-SLAM is a 2 point upgrade and has to work with 5-8 points worth of other upgrades (EM, the action bomb and Sabine crew), I'd say the Warden has been paying for the ability to do what it has been doing for four waves.

And I suppose those upgrades do nothing else but enable that combo? Or do they actually give some tangible effects? Because PS does just that. If you are paying for a high PS ship, you are paying as much as 8-9 extra points over the generic, that gets you nothing but the ability to play reactively with your actions, and attack first. Okay maybe 1 of those points is for the ability if its really good.

Aslam action bombing is a huge NPE and one of the big reasons an archetype vanished from the game.

It is nerfed on the same principle as the x7 was. There is no counterplay.

Introducing this mechanic was one of the worst ideas in the game. It was as stupid as the phantom cloak mechanic originally. Do you think that was fun?

1 minute ago, RufusDaMan said:

And I suppose those upgrades do nothing else but enable that combo? Or do they actually give some tangible effects? Because PS does just that. If you are paying for a high PS ship, you are paying as much as 8-9 extra points over the generic, that gets you nothing but the ability to play reactively with your actions, and attack first. Okay maybe 1 of those points is for the ability if its really good.

Aslam action bombing is a huge NPE and one of the big reasons an archetype vanished from the game.

It is nerfed on the same principle as the x7 was. There is no counterplay.

Introducing this mechanic was one of the worst ideas in the game. It was as stupid as the phantom cloak mechanic originally. Do you think that was fun?

No counterplay? Then why isn't Galaxy Note 7 still the top meta list?

Perhaps because there is counterplay, such as flanking, positioning your aces with a rock or debris between you and your fragile ace?
Tractor beams to throw them onto a rock, Ion to remove their movement options, blocking with the shuttle?
****, just fortress in the corner until they make a mistake!

A-SLAM action bombing isn't even in the same league as an NPE as FSR 2.0, 4 Wookies hugging in the corner or Dengaroo was. It's on par with the NPE of a low PS generic never getting arc onto high PS ship, and if it ever does, watching 3 blanks and a focus becoming 4 evades. Which, as a player of all 3 lists (generic swarm like ABBBA or BBBY (early rebel control); Miranda/Warden/Hog; Soontir Palp aces and Defender Palp aces), I've been on both sides of.

And while A-SLAM bombing may have made Soontir's and Whispers's life ****, the JM5K based lists are what pushed people away from him towards Defenders or Fang Fighters. Zuckuss probably had more of an impact on Imp aces than A-SLAM ever did, and the significant Nerf to him hasn't brought the Interceptor back to the top tables.

Feel free to rant and rave about how horrible A-SLAM is/was, but please try and keep things in a semblance of perspective. It was a treatment that was on a par with the problem at the time.

And I never really flew seriously before the great phantom nerf, just against my kids. I certainly had fun with the old decloak, their experience may have been different though.

30 minutes ago, DamianR said:

Feel free to rant and rave about how horrible A-SLAM is/was, but please try and keep things in a semblance of perspective. It was a treatment that was on a par with the problem at the time.

The grass is always greener.

It is a bit sad that Aces with their repositioning are such a hard counter to arc bound jousters.

It is a bit sad that K-wings with A/Slam counter Aces so hard.

We can't have it all, sadly.

19 minutes ago, Bonza said:

The grass is always greener.

It is a bit sad that Aces with their repositioning are such a hard counter to arc bound jousters.

It is a bit sad that K-wings with A/Slam counter Aces so hard.

We can't have it all, sadly.

The thing is with Aces... they don't allow for mistakes. One bad defense roll is enough to destroy an ace. If you **** up with Whisper, she is dead. If you **** up with a K-wing, its still there for the next turn, it can still attack, and still do SOMETHING. You miscalculate something with a 3 HP ace, and you are done for. Yes Palpatine is helping, but not every ace list uses him, and he was nerfed quite a bit.

This change is an example of treating the symptoms rather than the cause. No one moaned about bombs before Sabine - in fact the ability to finally have something that could stick it to Soontir Fel was a fact that the vast majority seemed to rejoice in. Even post-Sabine, Miranda was the biggest source of complaints and the humble Warden was still a rare sight, realistically having only one trick (A-SLAM mines) that would fail spectacularly against just about anything that wasn't a fragile Interceptor ace (1-2 damage at a time will never chew through a VCX or Falcon quickly enough, for example). They made for poor munitions carriers, because at PS2 and with a poor dial (SLAM doesn't help here since of course one couldn't shoot afterward) they were unlikely to ever line up a decent shot, and a 2-dice primary turret doesn't exactly make many waves once the mines are gone - if they got a shot at all before they were PS-killed. When was the last time any of us saw an ASLAM Warden on the table, let alone more than one?

This change does nothing to address any real problems. Miranda has long since moved on to Bomblets (and her main strengths are TLT access and her ability in any case), Sabine remains unchanged (a board-wide effect with no real limitations at all) and PS10 Nym remains a thing. Doing this to ASLAM is not going to bring back arc-dodging aces to any degree because they are still hard countered by those same things - literally the only thing it achieves is to remove the last mechanic the generic K-Wing had a reason to exist for and make the inclusion of the card with the K-Wing completely pointless. It's a heavy handed, lazy 'fix' that doesn't actually fix the things it's supposed to!

Oh but don't worry, so long as the [expletive deleted by the Imperial Inquisition] piece of [expletive deleted by the Imperial Inquisition] Star Wing can merrily do its tricks with SLAM, who cares about generic K-Wings? They were so five waves ago.

I think the most distressing aspect of the A/SLAM nerf is that we're essentially getting it confirmed in the same breath as the advent of the Gunboat, which has two different titles that basically let it do the same thing, but with cannons and ordinance.

After a few months of some very vocal persons saying how broken SLAM bombing is, the mechanic is effectively being handed over to Imperials.

Granted, EI Miranda will be a thing, and Bomblets are very powerful, but it's unfortunate FFG is just taking the fast and easy route instead of finding a way to buff aces vs. bombs.

Not really. Unlike Slam Bombing, Slam ordinancing still requires a good bit of skill on the part of the gunboat player. You are still limited to your front arc. And with relatively low pilot skills you'll have to guess your opponent's moves better to keep them in arc. Plus your opponent at least still gets his green dice.

34 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Not really. Unlike Slam Bombing, Slam ordinancing still requires a good bit of skill on the part of the gunboat player. You are still limited to your front arc. And with relatively low pilot skills you'll have to guess your opponent's moves better to keep them in arc. Plus your opponent at least still gets his green dice.

You keep saying that it takes no skill, but I can't see it that way. Just like any other aspect of the game, it tests your ability to measure distance.

SLAM bombing an ace is no less challenging than arc dodging.

8 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

The thing is with Aces... they don't allow for mistakes. One bad defense roll is enough to destroy an ace. If you **** up with Whisper, she is dead. If you **** up with a K-wing, its still there for the next turn, it can still attack, and still do SOMETHING. You miscalculate something with a 3 HP ace, and you are done for. Yes Palpatine is helping, but not every ace list uses him, and he was nerfed quite a bit.

Thing is, the difficulty of ace flying is grossly exaggerated. It is far harder to use 5 Khirax (or any generic joust list) to try and killbox/block an ace, than it is for the ace to reposition.

Aces are 'counterpunchers', they move with full knowledge of the field and can react accordingly.

And yes, I play Imperial aces almost exclusively (triple aces that is) even in this meta, we still dumpster a lot of list archetypes. There's a fairly high skill ceiling, but its not that hard - Palp aces was an overwhelmingly succesful and very popular list that was played in large numbers. If it were an astronomically hard list to fly, it would never been so prevelent.

And there are many lists in this meta that can 1 shot a K-wing, that's why generic K-wings are not that popular.

1 minute ago, Bonza said:

Thing is, the difficulty of ace flying is grossly exaggerated. It is far harder to use 5 Khirax (or any generic joust list) to try and killbox/block an ace, than it is for the ace to reposition.

Aces are 'counterpunchers', they move with full knowledge of the field and can react accordingly.

And yes, I play Imperial aces almost exclusively (triple aces that is) even in this meta, we still dumpster a lot of list archetypes. There's a fairly high skill ceiling, but its not that hard - Palp aces was an overwhelmingly succesful and very popular list that was played in large numbers. If it were an astronomically hard list to fly, it would never been so prevelent.

Yes, it is harder to outmaneuver ships that are designed for being elusive. The arc dodgers are made to counter jousters. And turrets are made to counter arc dodgers. There is nothing wrong with that.

The problem starts when you add bombs, which are good against everything. The problem escalates when you slap bombs on turret carriers, and gets even worse when you add the ability to shoot powerful ordnance. Now if we mention that you could place these bombs before the opponent has a chance to react, and doing this in a surprisingly large area of the game area, things start to get a bit out of hand.

The K-wing, if fully loaded, can answer jousters by launching a powerful alpha á la Miranda, while dropping bombs directly on them. It can also answer arc-dodgers by simply moving to them and placing a bomb on top of them, often killing them in one round. In the case of not being able to do that, because the arc dodger managed to avoid the impossibly large zone of death, usually by forgoing its chance to attack modified, or at all, the K-wing can still perform a double attack with its TLT. It might not do much, but it only needs to hit 3 times during a game to finish of Soontir.
And it can regen.

Now removing a part of these tricks does NOT make the ship bad.

The K-wing can still act as a surprising flanker, still being one of the fastest moving ships in the game. The K-wing can still act as a bomber, like pretty much every other bomber in the game, with the added bonus of being able to get the **** away, and carrying Sabine, with a TLT. The K-wing can still do all of its tricks a little bit weaker, but only one of them. The only loss of this nerf is the triple K-wing list. A singular K-wing will be able to perform almost identically, with a slight increase in price, and a slight decrease in power, but I think that was warranted.

I don't think its fair to bring up jousters in this discussion, since they are universally ******. There is very little a low PS arc-locked ship can do with such a high PS meta, filled with powerful, and mobile ships. Nym, Dash and Miranda can move around the board as they please, and so can the PS 11 alphastrike. As it was brought up by others, the average firing arc of the ships played has been increasing steadily, and the older arc-locked ships can barely hold up.
The Kimogilla, the Gunboat and the Silencer all have something special about them. The Kimogilla has a murder-zone, the Gunboat can attack after slamming, and the Silencer is a beast of an arc-dodger.
What does the humble low PS X-wing or even Khiraxz have in comparison? They don't move fancy, they don't have fancy mechanics, they don't do anything. There are better platforms for ordnance, there are better platforms for raw damage, there are better platforms for mobility. The only jouster list nowadays is based on insane survival abilities synergizing to allow for crazy value.

This is one of my biggest issues with the game. A ship needs to be special to be even considered viable, and most older ships just aren't, or if they are lucky, they have 1 pilot that can do some interesting thing, usually with 1 stapled build. And traditional arc-locked jousters are the least special of them all. Which is sad, because I like playing them.

Arc dodgers are more fun than K-Wings, but i can apprecate that some people prefer the turret, missile, bomb, crew, high hp, low green dice lifestyle. It has its place and still is super ultra competitive against aces.

If I have to choose between a turret/unavoidable bomb dominated meta and a slightly more ace meta still filled with bombs and turrets....yea its not even a choice.

For real though K-Wings have always been ridiculously stupid gud, this just makes them slightly less overwhelmingly better than a made up # 99% of the other generics in the game.

one point to consider: the advanced slam change is probably not being made in a vacuum. There may well be a new faq update right about the time the next waves release that makes other changes to the game. Trying to figure out how it fits into the current meta might not really be accurate

23 hours ago, Nestyr said:

It should be fairly obvious that I tend not to run Aces, solely because they have “unique” abilities, which other pilots cannot access.

Oh ok so aces are off the table, but you'll happily run a ship that has an action (and accompanying strategy) no other ship can do?

Might as well be a unique pilot in that case, don't you think? Unless what you mean is you prefer to find a strong ability and be able to spam it.

Have you tried quad TLT? Sounds right up your alley, playstyle-wise.

1 hour ago, Sparklelord said:

Oh ok so aces are off the table, but you'll happily run a ship that has an action (and accompanying strategy) no other ship can do?

Might as well be a unique pilot in that case, don't you think? Unless what you mean is you prefer to find a strong ability and be able to spam it.

Have you tried quad TLT? Sounds right up your alley, playstyle-wise.

No need to get personal. I’m enjoying this, mostly civil, thread.

However, for the record, I am playing four Auzitucks with Wookie Commandoes this month, just for the **** of it. I told my group in advance I was doing so, with the caveat that I would not use them if anyone objected. I’m a mediocre/ average player, and several of my regular opponents are some of my territory’s (and country’s) best players, so they don’t mind the challenge, while it is a good experience to play against them for the rest of us (I’m located in Canberra, Australia).

I hardly ever use TLT’s, preferring to use bombs. As I said before, my game was dropping clusters, then trying to finish off my opponents with my A2 turrets. Kind of evens out the nastiness, and makes for a more enjoyable game for both players. My win ratio was easily below 50%, but I loved the “uniqueness” of the list, especially before bombs became more prevalent. And many of my opponents weren’t that familiar with bombs, so it was a good experience for them. Those that were, were often not troubled by the list.

Many ships have actions, and accompanying strategies, that no other ships can do, or at least are limited in doing. Some examples: Phantoms get cloaking, on top of a decent AG. Defenders get white K-Turns. Some ships get Tallon Rolls, others can come to a dead stop. Some of these can be replicated, with the right upgrades. some cannot.

Any ship that can take an illicit upgrade, can take a burnout SLAM, and then Advanced SLAM, if they wish. How many ships can get white K-turns, for example?

I never used advanced slam on my bombing k-wing. still pied a whole lot of aces in the face with Conner net pie.

On 10/21/2017 at 8:33 AM, Nestyr said:

Why FFG? Why?

Yes, I love the new goodies with the Assault Gunboat. It is enough to make this die hard Rebel sign up to the Imperial Academy. But why, why, why did you go and change Advanced SLAM. It completely nerfs one of the best things about K-Wings: Advanced SLAMming over my opponent, and dropping Cluster Mines on him!

I have been running three Warden Squadron pilots with Advanced SLAM, Extra Munitions, Cluster Mines, Sabine, and two Bombardiers for ages. It has been competitive, but not overpowered, for many waves. Now, all of a sudden, my list is nerfed.

This was a great list for teaching my opponent the dangers of bombs, long before Nim came along - it was always amusing when you Slam, then drop three Cluster Mines on a large ship, to see the look on your opponent’s face when you tell them they have to roll three lots of two dice damage, with no chance to prevent it.

I found this list to be great fun to play. Once your ordnance expired, you had to relay on your A2 turrets to win you the game, which resulted in some of the most tense, most enjoyable games I and my opponents have played. Sure, they hated the Mines, but they had a chance to even up the score in the end game.

Sadly, no more. I guess it just became impossible for the Rebels to find the parts...

This tactic was even a selling point in the advance preview article for the K-Wing, which originally piqued my interest. I guess this article now needs to be redacted, or come with a disclaimer that the listed tactic is no longer possible due to card changes.

I’d be interested to know if K-Wings were considered when this change was introduced, or if it is just an unexpected byproduct of the change. I guess Miranda has proved to be too much of a pain for her opponents, to the detriment of all the other K-Wings out there. I think I know how all the Manaroo players out there felt, now.

This nerf was to bring down triple K's, not Miranda. It has taken Miranda down a peg as she needs EI to Slambomb now, but it flat out kills triple K bombers. Rightly so in my opinion. The dev's spoke about lists like the triple K's in the S&V podcast and stated that this sort of play, whether you enjoy it or not, is not in any way 'dogfighting' and takes away from the game's core fundamentals. I bet nobody that played against your list enjoyed the game. Good riddance I say.

On 10/21/2017 at 8:40 AM, ficklegreendice said:

you basically got it (Though manaroo didn't nerf the rest of her chassis...which is still in need of nerfing)

best thing to do is swap out those bombadiers and ASLAMS for EIs

yes, the stress bit is ***...but you also lose the overlap clauses. So yes, you can SLAM onto a rock or into a ship and still EI out a bomb (just not debris cause you'll be stressed )

add chopper for extra fun

EI is unique so no more triple K slam bombers. Miranda for sure, but only single Slambomb K's will be achievable now.

7 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

Yes, it is harder to outmaneuver ships that are designed for being elusive. The arc dodgers are made to counter jousters. And turrets are made to counter arc dodgers. There is nothing wrong with that.

Except, between a token stack, Palp and Autothrusters, turrets most certainly didn't counter arc-dodging aces. Out of arc, a 3 dice PWT can't hurt a token stack (Focus/Evade) atothrusters ace with Palp support at range 2-3 under any circumstances, and at range 1 only if the PWT rolls 4 hits and the ace blanks out.

12 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

You keep saying that it takes no skill, but I can't see it that way. Just like any other aspect of the game, it tests your ability to measure distance.

SLAM bombing an ace is no less challenging than arc dodging.

Sort of, but not really. As long as you didn't bump, you could trivially drop cluster mines on someone. Or right in front of them if you bumped them with the slam maneuver.

It's tough to determine if your potential maneuver is going to not bump or overlap an asteroid. Its not difficult to land a cluster mine or proximity mine on a ship's face. You just need to get "close enough". It's not anything like a precision flying that an Ace requires. It's just bumbling around the board in comparison.

2 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Sort of, but not really. As long as you didn't bump, you could trivially drop cluster mines on someone. Or right in front of them if you bumped them with the slam maneuver.

It's tough to determine if your potential maneuver is going to not bump or overlap an asteroid. Its not difficult to land a cluster mine or proximity mine on a ship's face. You just need to get "close enough". It's not anything like a precision flying that an Ace requires. It's just bumbling around the board in comparison.

BS.

With a higher PS bomber like Miranda, you still run the risk of getting blocked by a lower skill pilot.

If it was as easy as you make it out to be, Galaxy Note 7 lists would be tabling at tournaments.

6 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

BS.

With a higher PS bomber like Miranda, you still run the risk of getting blocked by a lower skill pilot.

If it was as easy as you make it out to be, Galaxy Note 7 lists would be tabling at tournaments.

Something being moronically easy(which this is) doesn't mean it is automatically top dog competitively. Other things are way stronger. That doesn't mean this isn't also broken. It's not like there is only one slot for something to be broken and over powered.

19 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

The thing is with Aces... they don't allow for mistakes. One bad defense roll is enough to destroy an ace. If you **** up with Whisper, she is dead. If you **** up with a K-wing, its still there for the next turn, it can still attack, and still do SOMETHING. You miscalculate something with a 3 HP ace, and you are done for. Yes Palpatine is helping, but not every ace list uses him, and he was nerfed quite a bit.

This doesn't add up. The K-Wing has no mitigation whatsoever. If you make a mistake you are taking damage, guaranteed. 3 highly modified 3 dice attacks have a high killing potential already, and if a K-Wing dies before delivering its payload you just lost 8 points doing nothing.

If you make a mistake with an ace, even a fatal one that should end you like getting blocked and taking 3 or more shots, there still is the possibility of lucking out and not taking any damage at all. Or running away on one hp and not operating at any more weakened level. If there are any range 3 shots in the equation, the likelihood skyrockets because Autothrusters are way too good in arc (should have been blank-focus so you can't just take everything). Aces allow for mistakes better than most ships, only arc-dodging turrets are worse in that respect.