Remember when the timing chart clarified TLT so Danger Zone no longer worked and no one ever flew 3 K-wings again?
SLAM is stupidly good even without automatic bomb drops, and the K-wing chassis is great. They will still be competitive.
There Go My K-Wings!
How is it possible that no pro-AdvSLAM-nerf person seems capable of recognizing that "nerfing SLAM-bombing" could have been done without nerfing AdvSLAM into uselessness (on the K-wing?
For a single K-Wing (either Miranda, or a cheap bombing warden), Experimental Interface is mostly fine. It'll be interesting to work around the stress penalties.
As to the loss of Triple Warden bombing lists, it's a bit sad, but not too sad, at least for me. It was an interesting list, but a highly skewed one. Alas, many of the top lists today are fairly skewed themselves.
The really sad part is that Advanced Slam feels way overpriced for K-Wings now. Starwings get a lot of tricks (both titles and the PS5 pilot) to lessen the impact of Weapons Disabled tokens, so the 2 point cost there feels justified. ASlam on K-Wings is just super depressing now.
15 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:SLAM -- not AdvSLAM, SLAM -- could have easily been changed to lessen the range and coverage of bombing runs without completely obliterating them.
How? I don't mean to be too flippant, but I'm not sure of anything too obvious for altering the basic structure of the SLAM action.
Kudos, my K-wing, leavin' all the best
You know my K-wing, the one that's on
There goes my K-wing
Watch her as she goes
There goes my K-wing
She's ordinary
There goes my K-wing
Watch her as she goes
There goes my K-wing
She's ordinary...
14 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:How is it possible that no pro-AdvSLAM-nerf person seems capable of recognizing that "nerfing SLAM-bombing" could have been done without nerfing AdvSLAM into uselessness (on the K-wing?
Why would I care? Why would anyone care? K-Wing is still a super viable ship and is, in fact, still a solid bomber. So what if some given mod isn’t stapled to the K-Wing (not that it ever was).
Whats the beef here?
4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:The really sad part is that Advanced Slam feels way overpriced for K-Wings now. [...] ASlam on K-Wings is just super depressing now.
That's because it's now useless on K-wings.
QuoteHow? I don't mean to be too flippant, but I'm not sure of anything too obvious for altering the basic structure of the SLAM action.
"The SLAM maneuver must be the same maneuver you originally executed." Or "The SLAM maneuver must be speed 2." Or "SLAM is performed at the end of the Activation phase."
And so on. Limits SLAM, which is probably slightly too good as an action, limits bombing coverage significantly (or allows counter-play), keeps AdvSLAM relevant ... and does all of this while only changing a reference card.
The downside of FFG's new "we're willing to errata" policy is that now if the stupid-but-easy fix is errata, that's what they'll do.
SLAM as the exact maneuver would pretty much kill the action entirely. It kills the fun, at least, of weaving around.
SLAM as speed 2 is an indirect buff to Slamming after ion if it's always 2-speed. If it's just a maximum of 2-speed, that'd be amazing with a 3-bank into a 2-hard, probably opening up new ground, and a 3-bank, 2-bank is only one ship length shorter. Meanwhile, it doesn't change the 2-2 Slam.
End of activation is maybe. It might be too strong if you get to choose your SLAM maneuver with perfect information at the end of the phase. If you don't and set a dial for the SLAM, then that kinda opens up reveal-bombs on SLAM again, which would be amazing with Bomblets.
///
I don't dislike the thought of fixing some ships through reference cards--that is what they did with the Phantom. However, I just don't think it's an easy fix to rework the SLAM action.
2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:SLAM as the exact maneuver would pretty much kill the action entirely. It kills the fun, at least, of weaving around.
I disagree, obviously. I'm not sure it's the best of these three -- or a myriad of possibilities and combinations -- but it certainly would not kill the action entirely. It would just require the SLAMmer to be a better player. And AdvSLAM bombing being too easy is exactly one of the complaints.
QuoteSLAM as speed 2 is an indirect buff to Slamming after ion if it's always 2-speed.
... Really? Who cares?
QuoteIf it's just a maximum of 2-speed, that'd be amazing with a 3-bank into a 2-hard, probably opening up new ground
No, it doesn't. The net coverage it removes is pretty huge.
QuoteMeanwhile, it doesn't change the 2-2 Slam.
So ... what's the goal? Is the goal to completely end AdvSLAM bombing? If that's what people want, that's what they got. But pretty much everybody says "AdvSLAM bombing coverage is too good. It's too easy to bomb." If that's that people think is too good, that's what should be fixed.
QuoteEnd of activation is maybe. It might be too strong if you get to choose your SLAM maneuver with perfect information at the end of the phase.
Maybe. Probably not. It allows counter-maneuvering in a way that current SLAM does not.
QuoteHowever, I just don't think it's an easy fix to rework the SLAM action.
No, it's not an "easy" fix. It would need a day or two of testing, just for example. That's the whole problem: FFG picks the stupid-but-easy "fix." Every goddam time.
17 hours ago, Nestyr said:This tactic was even a selling point in the advance preview article for the K-Wing, which originally piqued my interest. I guess this article now needs to be redacted, or come with a disclaimer that the listed tactic is no longer possible due to card changes.
I’d be interested to know if K-Wings were considered when this change was introduced, or if it is just an unexpected byproduct of the change. I guess Miranda has proved to be too much of a pain for her opponents, to the detriment of all the other K-Wings out there. I think I know how all the Manaroo players out there felt, now.
Was the nerf made because of the Gunboat, or was it made because of K-Wings and other craft and just happened to hit the rules at the same time as the Gunboat, so they used the updated version in the article? From looking up the TIE Phantom article, there were a couple paragraphs about how great it was to have a higher Pilot Skill so you could see where people moved before Decloaking. I don't think the errata to Decloak was made without considering that, it's just that after people played with it, they realized how potent it was and decided that fixing the ability was more important than ensuring that nothing in the preview article ever changed in any way.
I know it's never fun when a favorite ship gets nerfed, but if this ends up hurting K-Wings too much, hopefully a future expansion can grant them some new toys to use!
15 hours ago, Ohnoeszz said:So we get a change that outright eliminates the original intended usage of an upgrade.
I don't think we need more proof that the game is not being managed well by FFG recently.
Just like how the Decloak errata proved that FFG wasn't managing the game well, because it also altered the original, intended use of the ability.
11 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:No, it's not an "easy" fix. It would need a day or two of testing, just for example. That's the whole problem: FFG picks the stupid-but-easy "fix." Every goddam time.
Yes. Clearly the fact that they didn't go with your preferred fix proves that they put no thought or testing whatsoever into this decision.
Edited by JJ481 minute ago, JJ48 said:Just like how the Decloak errata proved that FFG wasn't managing the game well, because it also altered the original, intended use of the ability.
Well, as with everything else, the Decloak "fix" was the stupid-but-easy choice, so yeah.
QuoteYes. Clearly the fact that they didn't go with your preferred fix proves that they put no thought or testing whatsoever into this decision.
No, their five year old pattern of choosing stupid-but-easy every time is what indicates they put no thought or testing into the decision. The fact that it does nearly nothing against Miranda (an actual problem), nothing to permit re-positioning fragile aces to come back (an actual problem), and instead nerfs a list archetype that (AFAIK) hasn't even made the Top 8 at a major tournament (i.e., nerfs a non-problem) is what indicates they put no thought or testing into the decision.
7 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:People who are glad for the change will probably be older Imperial players who enjoyed dog fighting and arc dodging, much like myself. Then K Wings took away all the fun for Aces. Dropping cluster mines and using Sabine is as about as low floor as you can get. 1 cluster token with Sabine can kill Fel and there isn't a thing he can do about it, all you have to do is land 1 of the 3 you get either on him or close to his path. I very much doubt you will get many players lamenting the change to Adv SLAM...
This.
So, this.
...it was such bad design, it stripped the joy of the game’s core mechanic that we all fell in love with; dogfighting! No laminations from any women worth their salt on this change ????
Bombs is one thing, mines another. Slamming a mine on an unactivad ship is boring, easy and broken.
On 21/10/2017 at 9:13 AM, BadMotivator said:Because it was 100% busted as all firetrucking heck. Completely without skill or merit.
I’ll try not to take that personally... 
10 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:Snipped it down to the base complaints, which is basically what someone has said every single time there has ever been a Nerf of any kind.
Boohoo.
Yes, we all have to adapt our lists, even our "non meta" ones, when a faq drops.
Solution:
1. Single warden with EI not adv Slam.
2. Add new stuff or load your other Kwings differently
I will not mourn Adv Slam. I will merely adapt.
You must be fun at parties...
1 minute ago, Nestyr said:You must be fun at parties...
Oh yes. It's always a blast.
I enjoy x-wing. I just can't stand "woe is me" attitude. :-)
9 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:I think BadMotivator speaks for a lot of us, dropping bombs on anyone before they move and cant avoid damage because of game mechanics..pro...
People who have disagreed with you and are glad for the change will probably be older Imperial players who enjoyed dog fighting and arc dodging, much like myself. Then K Wings took away all the fun for Aces. Dropping cluster mines and using Sabine is as about as low floor as you can get. 1 cluster token with Sabine can kill Fel and there isn't a thing he can do about it, all you have to do is land 1 of the 3 you get either on him or close to his path. I very much doubt you will get many players lamenting the change to Adv SLAM...
It should be fairly obvious that I tend not to run Aces, solely because they have “unique” abilities, which other pilots cannot access. I think this is a flaw with the game, and pilots should be able to earn abilities, and manoeuvres on their dials, over time, limit d by the capabilities of the ship, but this isn’t the place for that discussion.
From what I can see, you are using the example of Fel as a “boo-hoo” to my K-Wings. You realise that Fel is almost unbeatable if you don’t use mines on it, unless the player rolls badly, so it, too, must still be broken so the entire archetype needs nerfing, using your own argument? Also, if you are unable to outposition yourself with Fel, against a PS 2 ship, I don’t think you are flying Fel right...
1 hour ago, Nestyr said:It should be fairly obvious that I tend not to run Aces, solely because they have “unique” abilities, which other pilots cannot access. I think this is a flaw with the game, and pilots should be able to earn abilities, and manoeuvres on their dials, over time, limit d by the capabilities of the ship, but this isn’t the place for that discussion.
From what I can see, you are using the example of Fel as a “boo-hoo” to my K-Wings. You realise that Fel is almost unbeatable if you don’t use mines on it, unless the player rolls badly, so it, too, must still be broken so the entire archetype needs nerfing, using your own argument? Also, if you are unable to outposition yourself with Fel, against a PS 2 ship, I don’t think you are flying Fel right...
Okay. Show us how it is done. Once you can defeat a well flown SLAMing bomber list with Fel alive reasonably consistently, then you can teach us how to fly him right.
4 hours ago, jocke01 said:Bombs is one thing, mines another. Slamming a mine on an unactivad ship is boring, easy and broken.
K-Wings still have access to missiles, torps, 2 bombs, tlt, crew, 9 hp, 2 attack PWT, and slam....and the base generic starts at only 23 pts
Generic wise arent there still sorta decent options behind Biggs?
Drunk Imperial Guessing at Rebel List:
| Warden Squadron Pilot — K-Wing | 23 |
| Twin Laser Turret | 6 |
| Extra Munitions | 2 |
| Harpoon Missiles | 4 |
| Rey | 2 |
| Guidance Chips | 0 |
| Ship Total: 37 | |
| Warden Squadron Pilot — K-Wing | 23 |
| Twin Laser Turret | 6 |
| Extra Munitions | 2 |
| Harpoon Missiles | 4 |
| Jan Ors | 2 |
| Guidance Chips | 0 |
| Ship Total: 37 | |
| Biggs Darklighter — X-Wing | 25 |
| R4-D6 | 1 |
| Integrated Astromech | |
3 hours ago, Nestyr said:It should be fairly obvious that I tend not to run Aces, solely because they have “unique” abilities, which other pilots cannot access. I think this is a flaw with the game, and pilots should be able to earn abilities, and manoeuvres on their dials, over time, limit d by the capabilities of the ship, but this isn’t the place for that discussion.
Trying to give named characters a little personality instead of having everyone be generic is a "flaw"?
13 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:How is it possible that no pro-AdvSLAM-nerf person seems capable of recognizing that "nerfing SLAM-bombing" could have been done without nerfing AdvSLAM into uselessness (on the K-wing?
The crybabys have won, Mr. Lebowski.
On 10/20/2017 at 5:23 PM, SabineKey said:And while I sympathize that something you love is taking a hit, that SLAM bombing trick was a factor in the loss of Aces in current play, a play style beloved by others as well. Bombing in general and a variant of SLAM bombing will survive, but maybe in a way that can let low health Aces a better chance for coming back.
Wait...was this before or after everyone cried about Soontir being OP or an NPE?
I just can't keep up with all the whining.
1 hour ago, Scopes said:Wait...was this before or after everyone cried about Soontir being OP or an NPE?
I just can't keep up with all the whining.
Then don't.
5 hours ago, Boom Owl said:K-Wings still have access to missiles, torps, 2 bombs, tlt, crew, 9 hp, 2 attack PWT, and slam....and the base generic starts at only 23 pts
Generic wise arent there still sorta decent options behind Biggs?
Drunk Imperial Guessing at Rebel List:
Warden Squadron Pilot — K-Wing 23 Twin Laser Turret 6 Extra Munitions 2 Harpoon Missiles 4 Rey 2 Guidance Chips 0 Ship Total: 37 Warden Squadron Pilot — K-Wing 23 Twin Laser Turret 6 Extra Munitions 2 Harpoon Missiles 4 Jan Ors 2 Guidance Chips 0 Ship Total: 37 Biggs Darklighter — X-Wing 25 R4-D6 1 Integrated Astromech
I’d go with Long-range scanners instead of guidance chips but otherwise this looks good.
7 hours ago, Nestyr said:Also, if you are unable to outposition yourself with Fel, against a PS 2 ship, I don’t think you are flying Fel right...
You move first..... You SLAM.... you dial in a 3 move and you end up 7 from your original position, be it hard turns, banks or just straight ahead, so yeah... low floor comment still stands. Sabine K Wings are easy mode.
5 hours ago, Scopes said:Wait...was this before or after everyone cried about Soontir being OP or an NPE?
I just can't keep up with all the whining.
The problem is, the people that don't like A-SLAM bombing are most likely the players that flew the aces. They didn't realise (or perhaps care) that for low PS ships, never getting to shoot at an Ace with two repositioning actions and full board knowledge, really isn't much fun. The low PS generic pilots had to get good at blocking or just lose, never having rolled an effective attack.
However, when a Warden bomb truck with Connor nets and A-SLAM, the tables were turned. Suddenly the low PS ship had the full board knowledge and a tool that could reduce that ace to actionless or space dust (which usually followed on anyway).
Really, there is just as much skill in being able to position yourself then pull off a bombing run over an ace from the edge of RB3, as there is as putting in a 2 hard and then working out the combo of boost/barrel roll to dodge arcs. Both usually have full board knowledge on their side.