was just wondering what the canonical source is for tie fighters being really bad and x-wings being awesome or if thats just something some legends author came up with because he didn't want his characters to die off and wanted to rack up absurd k:d ratios for his characters

I’m pretty sure the source is the movies... the Empire’s best pilots can’t even keep up with a bunch of random farmboy yokels in the Battle of Yavin...

they do quite well at yavin though except for that part where the deathstar blows up >.>

When Legends was the canon, it had been so from the beginning. The Tarkin Doctrine called for rule through fear, producing ships and weapons in overwhelming numbers to overwhelm any resistance. TIEs were designed to be mass-produced cheaply, so they lacked not just shielding, but even life support, leaving that to the TIE pilot's suit. X-wings probably had it established in the earliest merchandise info books that they had shields and more support systems, establishing their preference for quality over quantity since it fits the short-staffed Rebel Alliance much better, but if nothing earlier the original X-Wing games set it up.

Dunno if any of the new Canon sources reiterate this, but yeah, it was established a long time ago and has been the norm ever since. Even with the new Canon, a lot of status quo things have seemed to be implicitly kept with a lack of material establishing anything to overwrite them. Could probably check Wookiepedia's sources on the T-65 and TIE/LN pages to see if they cite specific works.

17 hours ago, Kieransi said:

I’m pretty sure the source is the movies... the Empire’s best pilots can’t even keep up with a bunch of random farmboy yokels in the Battle of Yavin...

Yeah, TIEs don’t look like they are super effective in the movies, crashing into space rocks, lasers, trench walls, canyon walls, each other, etc. the Falcon even chases down Interceptors at Endor, despite Fighters constantly tailing the Falcon in ANH and ESB.

X-wings explicitly have shields since they are set to ‘double front’ when approaching the DS. TIEs might have shields in the OT, because the rebel ships tend to splode with one or two hits too. The TIE that loses a wing in the asteroid field could have theoretically come out of that spin and still partially functioned...if he hadn’t crashed into another space rock. And the TIE that struck Vader’s ship in the trench did survive that collision only to smack into the wall and go boom. Vader’s ship can be assumed to have had shields since survived the collision (and Vader righted his ship from the resulting spin). Don’t know where the missiles first showed up tho.

and the thing about no life support on TIEs is rediculous since the Systems would take up minimal space, mass and power. But if the BRIANS kit does supply the pilot’s life support, then their must be a way for the TIE to supplement it with the suit being able to plug into the ship, at least for extended picket duty.

the presence of ejection mechanisms as seen in ESB also speak to the pilot suits being sealed, unlike the obviously unsealed helmets of the Rebel ships. Porkins, you were right to ride your fighter down than to die instantly in the cold vacuum. Tell Biggs to stuff it.

It's not that the ships are bad; they're just made for a different military doctrine. The Empire is all about large, imposing weapons (Death Stars, Star Destroyers, AT-ATs, etc) supplemented by swarms of cheaper, expendable units (TIE Fighters and Stormtroopers). Additionally, by not needing shields or heavier armor, TIE Fighters/Interceptors can be faster and more maneuverable. The Rebels don't have the numbers for swarms, and they can't afford to allow their pilots to be expendable, so they focus on rugged craft that are more likely to survive multiple battles.

We actually saw a similar thing in World War 2, with the Japanese Zero being a very light, nimble plane that couldn't really take a hit (no armor or self-sealing fuel tank), while the Americans had slower planes that were more armored. Early in the war, the Zero could outfly many of our planes, but we had a bit higher rate of pilot survival. In the end, this ended up really hurting Japan, as not only did they not have the resources to keep up with building the newest and greatest, but they also couldn't train up experienced pilots as fast as they were losing them.

9 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

the presence of ejection mechanisms as seen in ESB also speak to the pilot suits being sealed, unlike the obviously unsealed helmets of the Rebel ships.

I wasn't sure at the time if that was an actual ejection or just a chunk of debris being thrown clear. In the context of later material, ejection does become plausible.

In the newcanon ( Aftermath ) it would appear both that they have ejection systems, and , that they're rare enough that Rebels flying TIEs believe that they don't - that "ejection capable TIEs" are rarities.

10 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Yeah, TIEs don’t look like they are super effective in the movies, crashing into space rocks, lasers, trench walls, canyon walls, each other, etc. the Falcon even chases down Interceptors at Endor, despite Fighters constantly tailing the Falcon in ANH and ESB.

X-wings explicitly have shields since they are set to ‘double front’ when approaching the DS. TIEs might have shields in the OT, because the rebel ships tend to splode with one or two hits too. The TIE that loses a wing in the asteroid field could have theoretically come out of that spin and still partially functioned...if he hadn’t crashed into another space rock. And the TIE that struck Vader’s ship in the trench did survive that collision only to smack into the wall and go boom. Vader’s ship can be assumed to have had shields since survived the collision (and Vader righted his ship from the resulting spin). Don’t know where the missiles first showed up tho.

They are called deflector shields which implies to me at least that they are meant to try to deflect what would be a kill shot to make it a miss or to make it hit somewhere less bad, and perhaps double front means they are being focused entirely on the front to make such a deflection more likely. When they are escaping Tattoine han talks about angling the deflector shields which would seem to indicate that you angle them to try to get the best chance of a proper deflection for minimal damage. As you point out rebel ships tend to die with only a couple hits which as do ties which would seem to imply that they are fairly close to on par in terms of servivability. I don't think there is anywhere in the movies in which a shot is straight up blocked. not even when they are strafing the first death star. although to be fair I suppose there also aren't any scenes where a shot is noticeably deflected off course either.

7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

We actually saw a similar thing in World War 2, with the Japanese Zero being a very light, nimble plane that couldn't really take a hit (no armor or self-sealing fuel tank), while the Americans had slower planes that were more armored. Early in the war, the Zero could outfly many of our planes, but we had a bit higher rate of pilot survival. In the end, this ended up really hurting Japan, as not only did they not have the resources to keep up with building the newest and greatest, but they also couldn't train up experienced pilots as fast as they were losing them.

my understanding was the Japanese had trouble making a more powerful engine which meant they couldn't afford to add weight like armor or self sealing fuel tanks generally but I could be wrong about that. I suppose the argument for superior speed and agility is there but it seems to me, at least from what legends stuff I've read (which admittedly may not be a TON) like the imperial fighter doctrine is repeatedly proven ineffective and given that they came out of a war 20 years before that and that they have a lot more money to throw at the problem that they ought to be able to come up with something better. I suppose it's possible that the stuff I was reading just leaned a little to hard on making the good guys too much better but it's just always bugged me....

45 minutes ago, Ironlord said:

I wasn't sure at the time if that was an actual ejection or just a chunk of debris being thrown clear. In the context of later material, ejection does become plausible.

In the newcanon ( Aftermath ) it would appear both that they have ejection systems, and , that they're rare enough that Rebels flying TIEs believe that they don't - that "ejection capable TIEs" are rarities.

I just don't understand how it could possibly be cheaper and more effective to not have ejection systems and to instead have to train a new pilot every time your made of paper tie fighters get blown up

edit: I suppose the existence of droidekas dismisses the possibility of shields not being a thing.

edit 2: although the droids firing at anikans ship when hes in the hangar of the droid control ship. have their shots deflected....

perhaps I am just expecting too much logic out of star wars

10 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

oops

7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

10 hours ago, Ihavebadluck said:

I don't think there is anywhere in the movies in which a shot is straight up blocked. not even when they are strafing the first death star. although to be fair I suppose there also aren't any scenes where a shot is noticeably deflected off course either.

A couple of OT shots of laser and turbolaser bolts stopping short of the ship, and instead flaring up in white - the implication being that they are hitting extended shields:

44 minutes ago, Ironlord said:

A couple of OT shots of laser and turbolaser bolts stopping short of the ship, and instead flaring up in white - the implication being that they are hitting extended shields:

Go to 1:01, white flashes around TIEs.

I saw a couple of white flashes at 0.34 at least - possible shield interaction. Still, given all the other references to TIEs being shieldless, and the tiny size of those flashes, those might not be full strength shields of the Falcon & X-Wing type - more "anti-meteor dust shielding".

not sure about that one with the falcon but I thought that one with the x-wing might have been a flak type situation with it exploding at a certain distance to try to catch it in the explosion or something like that but idk. as for that tie there is one thats fairly large

On 10/22/2017 at 10:56 AM, Ihavebadluck said:

not sure about that one with the falcon but I thought that one with the x-wing might have been a flak type situation with it exploding at a certain distance to try to catch it in the explosion or something like that but idk. as for that tie there is one thats fairly large

That’s exactly what I wanted to post but my phone wouldn’t let me! Wah!

yeah, pretty sure these Sentry TIE/ln have Ray shields. Whether these TIEs were special versions or they represented the standard model we really can’t determine with just the movie to go by.

At the very least every ship that operates out of Atmosphere must have enough shielding to protect against radiation and micrometeorites, whether using hull plating or ray/particle shields. It’s only logical that TIE hulls are pretty tough as we see, so hulls plus flight suits might be enough to protect pilots from the Space environment but still not stand up to multiple direct hits from heavy cannons. The ANH shielded TIEs seem to withstand single glancing shots from Quad lasers.

I thought I recalled in Legends that pretty much all ships had some kind of material-based to protect from micrometeorites and such (since it was relatively easy to implement into the production process), but shields against lasers weren't on all ships because they were more expensive and the projectors required more space/power.

That being said, there's also precedent of normally unshielded TIEs being given shields. In the TIE Fighter series, some of the later missions have a rogue Imperial officer outfitting TIE Fighters and Bombers with shields, in the hopes of gaining a technical advantage.

I would just like to add to @JJ48 point a bit more.

the zero was actually slower than the mustang but Waaaay more maneuverable. The Zero was a phenomenal fighter and really gave early American fighters problems. But the Americans continued to up the anti with their RnD and towards the end of the war, our aircraft was just more advanced than the Zero. I imagine the Japanese would have created better aircraft if they could but as mentioned before, they struggled with making a better engine for aircraft.

survival rate helped a ton too, after all, the US could make multiple ships in a day but it takes months to learn how to be a combat pilot.

However, the Imperial Navy of Star Wars actually falls more into the German way of thinking. The Germans initially just did not see how revolutionary Carriers were going to be so they spent a TON on large ships and ways to disrupt logistical ships (hence their mighty U-boats). The empire just doesn’t get how effective fighters are so would much rather have a ton of ISDs instead of quality fighters.

AND to really round off the aircraft side of things, the Empire’s strategy is much closer to the Soviet Union aircraft doctrine. Tons of little aircraft that are easy to fly and get the job done. That lead to aircraft designs like the MiG-21 which is still used to this day by countries like North Korea. Granted, the MiG-21 is not going to win air superiority if push comes to shove but it still can establish some form of an air defense. It is also a 60 year old design so the fact that it still can successfully perform missions makes it pretty incredible.

And the Soviet style of thinking isn’t a bad one either. The MiG-21 really caused problems with our F-4s in Vietnam. Too much technology and not enough maneuverability was a terrible model and unfortunately, the US paid for it. The F-4 is more like a B-wing in that regard. And the tie fighter can kill a B-wing.

BUT we learned from our mistakes and developed the EM theory so maneuverability was back in the aircraft designs. The F-14 eventually replaced the F-4 and the F-14 was a death sentence for a MiG 21 (and the later MiG’s as well)

4 hours ago, Mackaywarrior said:

I would just like to add to @JJ48 point a bit more.

the zero was actually slower than the mustang but Waaaay more maneuverable. The Zero was a phenomenal fighter and really gave early American fighters problems. But the Americans continued to up the anti with their RnD and towards the end of the war, our aircraft was just more advanced than the Zero. I imagine the Japanese would have created better aircraft if they could but as mentioned before, they struggled with making a better engine for aircraft.

survival rate helped a ton too, after all, the US could make multiple ships in a day but it takes months to learn how to be a combat pilot.

However, the Imperial Navy of Star Wars actually falls more into the German way of thinking. The Germans initially just did not see how revolutionary Carriers were going to be so they spent a TON on large ships and ways to disrupt logistical ships (hence their mighty U-boats). The empire just doesn’t get how effective fighters are so would much rather have a ton of ISDs instead of quality fighters.

AND to really round off the aircraft side of things, the Empire’s strategy is much closer to the Soviet Union aircraft doctrine. Tons of little aircraft that are easy to fly and get the job done. That lead to aircraft designs like the MiG-21 which is still used to this day by countries like North Korea. Granted, the MiG-21 is not going to win air superiority if push comes to shove but it still can establish some form of an air defense. It is also a 60 year old design so the fact that it still can successfully perform missions makes it pretty incredible.

And the Soviet style of thinking isn’t a bad one either. The MiG-21 really caused problems with our F-4s in Vietnam. Too much technology and not enough maneuverability was a terrible model and unfortunately, the US paid for it. The F-4 is more like a B-wing in that regard. And the tie fighter can kill a B-wing.

BUT we learned from our mistakes and developed the EM theory so maneuverability was back in the aircraft designs. The F-14 eventually replaced the F-4 and the F-14 was a death sentence for a MiG 21 (and the later MiG’s as well)

...and eventually we got the K-Wing A-10! It doesn't really have anything to do with air superiority, but it's an awesome enough plane that I figured it was worth mentioning anyway.

5 hours ago, JJ48 said:

...and eventually we got the K-Wing A-10! It doesn't really have anything to do with air superiority, but it's an awesome enough plane that I figured it was worth mentioning anyway.

I can’t like this statement enough on these forums lol

no joke though, the EM theory and the folks behind it put a lot of thought into the A-10.

I also can’t say it enough, the K-Wing is an A-10 lol