From the rules reference:

"For all selections, an option that has the potential to change the game state must be chosen, if able."

"If an ability instructs a player to select among multiple effects, an effect that has the potential to change the game state must be selected."

Now, we definitely know that dishonored characters cannot be dishonored again, so you cannot dishonor them as a part of For Shame!.

It would seem to be true that this is also the case when a non-honored personality is targetted during a conflict where a Steward of Law is present, since it is not possible to change the game state by dishonoring that target.

Triggered effects stipulate that other cards are not considered when determining potential "A triggered ability can only be initiated if its effect has the potential to change the game state on its own. This potential is assessed without taking into account the consequences of the cost payment or any other ability interactions."

No such stipulation is made regarding regular abilities/events etc.

A friend of mine was told however that you can choose to dishonor and it simply does nothing because steward of law op.

Thoughts? How can I get an official ruling on this?

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Steward of Law:

While this character is participating in a conflict, characters cannot become dishonored.

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For Shame:

Action: During a conflict, if you control a participating Courtier character, choose a participating character controlled by your opponent. Your opponent must select one – dishonor the chosen character or bow it.

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Cannot (RRG, p.3)

The word “cannot” is absolute, and cannot be countermanded by other abilities or effects.

Steward says "cannot become dishonored" and thus, will not be overidden. The "dishonor" choice cannot be made and bow is the only option from For Shame!. Without the bow option on For Shame!, the triggering would not be allowed due to the absence of the potential of game state change from the effects of the card alone.

I don't believe a need for an official ruling is needed as the RRG has all the answers here.

I think you're taking the 'on its own' thing the wrong way.

If you play For Shame! with Steward of Law out, you start by checking the costs section of the ability. The last part of that is for your opponent to 'choose one'. As a part of the cost, that choice must have the potential to change the game state. Choosing dishonour does not have this potential die to Steward of Law (unless you were honoured to start with) and this it is not a legal choice.

What 'on its own' means is that if your dishonoured Scorpion was the target of For Shame!, you could not choose to be dishonoured on the basis that your Young Rumourmonger could bounce that dishonour onto another character – it must have an effect on its own.

So yes, Steward of Law is bow central when you have For Shame! in your hand.

Also you have to say

"I am the Law" in your best Judge Dredd voice any time you play this combo.

As others have stated - you're absolutely correct. If a character is dishonored they must bow for For Shame.

Just remember that if you are honored you can still choose to be dishonored and move to ordinary status - as Steward of Law only prevents anyone from "becoming dishonored" aka actually gaining the dishonored token.

1 hour ago, shosuko said:

As others have stated - you're absolutely correct. If a character is dishonored they must bow for For Shame.

Just remember that if you are honored you can still choose to be dishonored and move to ordinary status - as Steward of Law only prevents anyone from "becoming dishonored" aka actually gaining the dishonored token.

I am not trying to stir anything up. I noticed a thing and I think there may be a wording issue here, so I have a question:

If the Steward of Law has the text on the card the says, "While this character is participating in a conflict, characters cannot become dishonored..." does that mean a character cannot be "reduced" in honor status?

I only ask because you used the verbiage, "if you are honored you can still choose to be dishonored and move to ordinary status..." It seems a bit contradictory when you use the exact verbiage of the Steward of Law card text.

11 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

I am not trying to stir anything up. I noticed a thing and I think there may be a wording issue here, so I have a question:

If the Steward of Law has the text on the card the says, "While this character is participating in a conflict, characters cannot become dishonored..." does that mean a character cannot be "reduced" in honor status?

I only ask because you used the verbiage, "if you are honored you can still choose to be dishonored and move to ordinary status..." It seems a bit contradictory when you use the exact verbiage of the Steward of Law card text.

Being dishonored and becoming dishonored are two separate things. If you were to craft a venn diagram it would show a larger circle for "being dishonored" and a smaller circle for "becoming dishonored" where becoming dishonored only includes situations in which the dishonored token is actually placed on the character where "being dishonored" involves any change towards dishonor including from Honored status to Ordinary status.

This is expounded upon in the RR page 12 Personal Honor

When a character is dishonored it receives a dishonored status token.

A "Dishonored character" subtracts its glory value from its MIL and POL skills while it has that token.

However when an Honored character is Dishonored it simply loses the status token "becoming ordinary" status.

This is the difference between being able to be dishonored to ordinary status vs becoming dishonored.

Steward of Law only blocks characters becoming dishonored (gaining the dishonored token)

14 minutes ago, shosuko said:

When a character is dishonored it receives a dishonored status token.

A "Dishonored character" subtracts its glory value from its MIL and POL skills while it has that token.

However when an Honored character is Dishonored it simply loses the status token "becoming ordinary" status.

This is the difference between being able to be dishonored to ordinary status vs becoming dishonored.

Steward of Law only blocks characters becoming dishonored (gaining the dishonored token)

Right, right. I am willing to believe you. I was just saying, even the rules use the exact same "dishonored" word on the Steward of Law. So, I was looking at the "dishonored" action vs. the "dishonored" token. Using the exact verbiage can cause a lot of confusion. But I am will to go along with ya... thanks for the answer.

6 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Right, right. I am willing to believe you. I was just saying, even the rules use the exact same "dishonored" word on the Steward of Law. So, I was looking at the "dishonored" action vs. the "dishonored" token. Using the exact verbiage can cause a lot of confusion. But I am will to go along with ya... thanks for the answer.

it's not about the word "Dishonored" it's the difference between "Be dishonored" and "Become dishonored". Being honored/dishonored is changing state, Becoming honored/dishonored, is arriving at that state.

2 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

it's not about the word "Dishonored" it's the difference between "Be dishonored" and "Become dishonored". Being honored/dishonored is changing state, Becoming honored/dishonored, is arriving at that state.

Sure. I just wish they did not make it confusing. It is the exact same word...

Does the game use the phrasing 'dishonored' to mean the same as 'to dishonor'? I haven't looked for specific instances. For Shame doesn't.

What you're looking for is any time it's 'dishonor' or 'honor', it's the action of shifting between honored, normal, dishonored in whichever direction.

'being dishonored' describes the current state as dishonored, and 'becoming dishonored' describes a move that results in the state of 'being dishonored'.

Someone correct me if I butchered that but I think that covers the whole range of wording.

23 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Sure. I just wish they did not make it confusing. It is the exact same word...

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand L5R. The nuance is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical Ancient Japanese customs most of the mechanics will go over a typical player's head. There's also the brutal HONOR mechanic which is deftly woven into the card draw and duels which draw heavily from the Akira Kurosawa movies, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of these mechanics, to realize they aren't just clever - they say something important about actual historic Japanese traditions. As a consequence people who dislike L5R truly ARE baka-gaijin. Of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the interactions in which a duelist lobs all of their lord's honor for a single duel just to win, which its self is a cryptic reference to The Magnificent 7 epic struggle between what is "right" and what is "real." I'm smirking right now just imagining one of these addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as FFG's genius design unfolds itself on the play mat in front of them... What fools, how I pity them.

And yes, by the way, I do have an L5R tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the Geisha's eyes only - and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 ELO of my league account (preferably lower) before hand. Nothing personal kid

Alright this is how I thought it worked- thanks for weighing in everyone!