Death Knights are going to be around real soon! What lists are people looking at including them in? I like the idea of giving them the duskblade and combat ingenuity at the 2x2 size bringing a unit to 56 points. I was thinking of something along the lines of:

200/200 points

Death Knights x4 [42]
--Artifact: The Duskblade [8]
--Training: Combat Ingenuity [6]
----------Total Unit Cost: 56

Reanimates x9 [50]
--Champion: Ardus IxErebus [23]
--Music: Triumphant Cry [3]
--Training: Moment of Inspiration [5]
----------Total Unit Cost: 81

Reanimate Archers x2 [18]
--Training: Combat Ingenuity [6]
----------Total Unit Cost: 24

Reanimate Archers x2 [18]
--Training: Combat Ingenuity [6]
----------Total Unit Cost: 24

Carrion Lancers x1 [15]
----------Total Unit Cost: 15

I know people generally prefer Ardus as his own unit but his damage output doesn't justify the points to me and with MoI giving the reanimates 2 white 2 red you should get a few surges to play with.

Hm, interesting idea. That duskblade combo is expensive, but does increase their output pretty considerably against defense 2 targets. Any higher than that and I expect reaping blade would be the way to go.

Main concern is that it does nothing against defense 1 enemies, so you'll be at a disadvantage against lots of reanimates or berserkers.

Duskblade is not unique, so every surge you dial in is -1 armor, so going against 2-4 or even 5 armor (Hawthorne) units can be really beneficial if you get a couple surges. The Ardus block rolls 2 whites at double surge, and now hawthorne has 1 armor (from 5) and you hit hawthorne with hits from the others (ideal rolls obviously) you have a dead Hawthorne.

Duskblade is unique, it has a squiggy line under the name which is this game's unique marker. All relics are unique as of right now, and probably will remain with that design choice.

Combining it with CI is probably the only way to make it valid since its a 2surge ability. Getting 2 surges is always a problem imo unless you get solid friggen surges anyway.

DKs are going to be a problem with pretty much any relic. 3 armor is enough to justify Margath, Reaping Blade on multi-red dice is scary, Duskblade because of CI combo, and FDice because of insurance.

Reaping Blade is honestly the main thing im not looking forward to. That will enable them to butcher anything that isnt infantry, and even hit infantry hard (mortal strikes arent as amazing of course against infantry)

edit: STOP...AUTOCORRECTING...TO...DUCKBLADE...PHONE!!

He meant that it doesn't use unique surges, not that the upgrade itself is not unique.

I definitely like the idea of Shield of Margath on these guys, maybe with lingering dead, just make them so annoying to kill off, especially with their Mortal Strike reduction.

I really like the DKs, as unit and as miniatures to paint.

But at the moment I'm not sure what task area they have. Thus Waiqar have already the lancers as a kind of cavalry, I'm looking for their unique selling point.

16 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

He meant that it doesn't use unique surges, not that the upgrade itself is not unique.

Exactly this.

8 hours ago, Rhargar said:

I really like the DKs, as unit and as miniatures to paint.

But at the moment I'm not sure what task area they have. Thus Waiqar have already the lancers as a kind of cavalry, I'm looking for their unique selling point.

I feel like lancers are not a cavalry, sure they move quickly but they aren't cavalry. Lancer's move well in a straight line and even that is limited. Cavalry are much faster. Lancers rely on blight to get mortal wounds, DKs don't. They have 3 armor, and can't be mortally wounded unless you have two mortal wounds, but two mortal wounds to kill 1 cavalry unit is worse than just rolling the hits.

DKs will be devastating against the Latari heroes, as they don't have brutal so what they roll is what they get. They're going to have a hard time killing many DKs at a time.

Lancers are way too sluggish (hmm...pun?) to be cavalry. Cavalry are typically fast moving units, the Lancer is pretty slow and often has to stand still for a turn to alot of what its trying to do.
Lancers are speedbumps/distractions unless in a big block.

DKs will outmaneuver and outdamage lancers any day. In terms of being a speedbump for archers though a single Lancer is still best, not to mention feeding Ardus the surge ability. Lancers are also 9pts cheaper for speedbump strat anyway so why not use them (9pts for -1hp and no mortal strike resistance sounds fine to me for speedbumps)
DKs also have a white skill, so they can sport more stuff than the Lancers could and not feel like theyre wasting a turn using it. Or forced to forgo their melee to use it.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that the Death Knights are not very good. At least in the meta right now.

They are too expensive for what they are offering, especially considering the faction requires a lot of synergy and other units to maximize value. You're also paying a premium for their Unique upgrade slot, meaning you lose out a bit on running multiple units of Death Knights. No more than one Obcasium's Gauntlets for you.

They have the latest advance action in the game right now, at 9. It's not the longest, but it means they can guaranteed move after the enemy, threatening a charge. In much the same way this lets Oathsworn bully Reanimates with positioning, Death Knights now command respect. Having a unit forces your opponent to consider their movement more carefully, restricting their options. For that alone they're powerful.

9 hours ago, Click5 said:

I'll go out on a limb here and say that the Death Knights are not very good. At least in the meta right now.

They are too expensive for what they are offering, especially considering the faction requires a lot of synergy and other units to maximize value. You're also paying a premium for their Unique upgrade slot, meaning you lose out a bit on running multiple units of Death Knights. No more than one Obcasium's Gauntlets for you.

Here we go with the "meta"...

Can there be considered to even be a meta yet?

Call it whatever you want then, geez

I think if we want to talk meta, looking at the tournament season's objectives is a good place to start. The white skill modifier is excellent for Confluence of Magic...which so far hasn't been a legal objective. Nevermind. But Demoralize Their Forces is now active, and the blue Reform on the modifier dial will be supreme for setting up flanking charges. That gives Death Knights a huge advantage over Oathsworn. And if you're feeling froggy, you could even shift to disengage ( ) and then hit them again! You pull that gimmick off just once and you've got a 20% lead on points without having killed anything. I'm not sure anybody would let you do that to them, but if you have multiple Death Knight units, you've got a good chance to win that objective.

The other objectives are Bounty and Supply Raid. I think Supply Raid is kind of neutral for these guys. A large unit will let you kill opposing units that are carrying supplies, while multiple small units of Death Knights will allow you to quickly pick up supplies, and maybe make a run for it. Maybe. Not sure the best way to approach this objective.

Bounty worries me a little. If you have, for example, two Death Knights at 4 trays each, that's about half your army (84 base cost; I'm assuming you've put some good upgrades on them). If they are your main melee attackers, what do you choose for your tough-to-kill unit that stays out of the way? I like the idea of supporting the Death Knights with Reanimate Archers, but those are hardly tough enough to be your bounty unit, unless maybe you could leverage Wind Rune to keep them out of the fight. A big scary block of Carrion Lancers with Shield Wall might also be a good bounty unit, but I'm not sure what that would bring to the table in your games with other objectives. Maybe Master-Crafted Weapons + Combat Ingenuity is better, playing to the old adage, "The best defense is a good offense." Or there's always Ardus Ix'Erebus who can give people fits if you keep him safe from units that have large threat before sending him in. Looking offensively, the Death Knights have the speed and maneuverability to hunt down the opposing bounty unit, and I think they also have the attack profile and stamina to break through opposing units that are blocking the enemy bounty unit.

In summary, I think Death Knights have a good chance this tournament season, including Worlds . If we had Confluence of Magic instead of Supply Raid, I'd be tempted to buy a whole army of Death Knights. Of course, I've only done half the analysis. Next step is to go through this same thought process for other factions, and figure out if the best units for them to use in these objectives are susceptible to Death Knight tactics.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

In summary, I think Death Knights have a good chance this tournament season, including Worlds .

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.... but death knights wont be at worlds.

8 hours ago, Click5 said:

Call it whatever you want then, geez

Sorry, just hate that term, and any NPE that tends to follow it... ahem, Xwing, ahem

5 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.... but death knights wont be at worlds.

5 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.... but death knights wont be at worlds.

Elves are excited at this news

6 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.... but death knights wont be at worlds.

Eh, no skin off my back - I'm not going to Worlds, and I can't afford an army of Death Knights any time soon. I will edit my post.

Whats with people suddenly not thinking DKs are that great?
Is it because Maro cant make them come back or something?

DKs are going to be a problem i guarantee it. They may only be average on initial release but come Uthuk and a few more units (especially more sieges) they will become a real big problem.

5 hours ago, Aurelus said:

Sorry, just hate that term, and any NPE that tends to follow it... ahem, Xwing, ahem

Because you hate the term, doesn't mean the term isn't relative and real.

Meta just implies "What most people use" If you say Oathsworn for Daqan isn't "meta" you're only saying that because you don't like the word. Because almost anyone who wins with Daqan in tournaments win with a good Oathsworn unit. If you look around the threads here the forum has many people saying I also run those like that. a 3x2 of Carrion Lancers... meta. A LOT of people use that. That's all meta means. What many people use, because that's what works best right now.

It's only "meta" if you do something about. If you know Cavalry are common but you create a list without consideration of said Cavalry, you aren't metagaming. "Meta" refers to all the predictions and list building that happens before a game begins. It is the game outside the game. If you build your list irrespective of that, you're not playing the metagame.

16 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

DKs are going to be a problem i guarantee it. They may only be average on initial release but come Uthuk and a few more units (especially more sieges) they will become a real big problem.

I've been thinking that they will be good vs Daqan and Latari mainly due to their Mortal strike game. But I have not yet thought up a scenario where they will have a real advantage vs Uthuk, because Mortal strikes seems less relevant against them and soaking (Reanimates?) more relevant? Do you have a strategy idea for DK's vs Uthuk I would be very interested!