16 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I think the Strife system does need to be flushed out .

Freudian slip ?

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I was very worried about Strife and Outbursts, but once they actually happened I realized how tame they are.

Isn't this kind of a problem then? Aside from the free combat buff, the Outbursts are kinda meaningless to some characters, but they require a ton of bookkeeping to track. So power gamers won't care about them (their characters are probably Strife-Proofed anyway), and roleplayers will just be irritated by them because they never needed the dice to "help" them play their character anyway (they know what will make their character get agitated and will "Outburst" anyway). It's a mechanic that only makes a handful of players happy, and at great cost to the fluidity of the game. It's just Getting In The Way Of The Fun for most people, but I can't just ignore them because the entire game system hinges on it.

If I don't care about the Void Point Disadvantage Refresh system, and I don't because it's one of the worst mechanics I've ever seen in a game, I can ignore it and let characters rest or meditate to get them back and nothing changes. If I don't care about ninjo and giri, and I don't because the Discord Wheel is incredibly dumb, I can ignore it because its mechanics are isolated. Ninjo and giri are really interesting roleplaying concepts, but not something I want to be having to preplan session mechanics around. As an experienced GM I know that we are going to end at variable places in the storyline based on time availability, and something like the Discord Wheel will feel really artificial. Plus what do I need to do? Set a timer? Keep a log? What happens if I play one weekend for four hours, and the next weekend for six? Oh good. More bookkeeping in my Legend of the Five Accountants game. So we can incorporate that idea, and then discuss how we want it to affect the characters and the story and plot parts of the campaign around it, but ignore the mechanics as written.

That option doesn't exist with Strife. If I think Strife is a poor mechanic, and I do because it is, I'm stuck. If I take Outbursts out of the game, Void and Water Stances are Useless and Fire Stance is Overpowered. If I ignore the Strife symbols entirely, then Fire Stance is now also Useless, meaning three out of the five stances in the game do nothing. If I just take all five Stances out of the game for "balance" reasons, then combat becomes much less multi-faceted as all that really remains are the Katas/Shujis/Kihous etc. But most starting characters will have one of them, maybe two, that are functional and some of them are better than others. Everyone who doesn't have a relevant combat kata (poor Kakita Karl, he can't catch a break) just reverts back to "Roll My Best Trait" which is one of the weaker parts of this system, frankly. Nevermind the statistical problems with removing risk in a risk/reward system and how that will force a rework of Target Number expectations.

@shosuko

Conflicts are, basically, races to see which side of the conflict can accumulate enough points to claim their objective. In combat, that's Wounds (can be shortcircuited through Crits), and in Intrigue, that's Rhetorical Points (can be kinda short circuited by RP, but not in the controllable ways crits do). Outside of Conflicts, there is no bonus for keeping Bonus Successes, but in Conflicts, you are rewarded for doing so by getting extra "win points". This makes Strife scale in the way that if your opposition is competent, you might want to carefully judge if you want to play safe and gain less Strife, or if you are going to pull no punches and use all the dice, even these with Strife, to push on.

TNs might not change (they actually will, if your opposition is using Opportunities), but you need to keep up with the tempo of accumulating "win points", or you might find yourself behind in the race.

13 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Freudian slip ?

mebbe lol. Whether we flush it out and expose its flaws so we can correct it, or whether we flesh it out by filling in the empty spaces and refine the system... I can spin it either way ^_~

8 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

Isn't this kind of a problem then? Aside from the free combat buff, the Outbursts are kinda meaningless to some characters, but they require a ton of bookkeeping to track. So power gamers won't care about them (their characters are probably Strife-Proofed anyway), and roleplayers will just be irritated by them because they never needed the dice to "help" them play their character anyway (they know what will make their character get agitated and will "Outburst" anyway). It's a mechanic that only makes a handful of players happy, and at great cost to the fluidity of the game. It's just Getting In The Way Of The Fun for most people, but I can't just ignore them because the entire game system hinges on it.

If I don't care about ninjo and giri, and I don't because the Discord Wheel is incredibly dumb, I can ignore it because its mechanics are isolated. Ninjo and giri are really interesting roleplaying concepts, but not something I want to be having to preplan session mechanics around. As an experienced GM I know that we are going to end at variable places in the storyline based on time availability, and something like the Discord Wheel will feel really artificial. So we can incorporate that idea, and then discuss how we want it to affect the characters and the story and plot parts of the campaign around it, but ignore the mechanics as written.

That option doesn't exist with Strife. If I think Strife is a poor mechanic, and I do because it is, I'm stuck. If I take Outbursts out of the game, Void and Water Stances are Useless and Fire Stance is Overpowered. If I ignore the Strife symbols entirely, then Fire Stance is now also Useless, meaning three out of the five stances in the game do nothing. If I just take all five Stances out of the game for "balance" reasons, then combat becomes much less multi-faceted as all that really remains are the Katas/Shujis/etc. But most starting characters will have one of them, maybe two, that are functional and some of them are better than others. Everyone who doesn't have a relevant combat kata (poor Kakita Karl, he can't catch a break) just reverts back to "Roll My Best Trait" which is one of the weaker parta of this system, frankly.

Does it really require tons of bookkeeping to track? Its easier than Wounds. You don't have to worry about resistance from armor, techniques, or resisting crits. Its probably one of the easiest things to track right now. You pick your dice, add any Strife kept and then its a simple "did I exceed my Composure or not?" The hardest part is just recognizing your Strife level. Try using glass beads so you can easily see it, and adjust for it.

I think the way the book describes Ninjo and Giri doesn't quite do it justice... I think this is going the right direction but doing it wrong. Ninjo and Giri don't necessarily have to be in opposition, but it is good to have something on your character sheet that says "GM, this is what my character cares about" so the GM can include that in the story to ensure they can give everyone the spotlight they want. Its a bit awkward how they try to tie it in mechanically to Honor and Glory, as if Ninjo was always honorable and Giri was always Glorious... I kinda think they should try to re-think that entire area... but I don't think Ninjo or Giri are any more of a throw-away than a character's backstory, personality, or methods of accomplishing their goals. Ninjo and Giri are basically personal story hooks the player is giving to the GM so the story can be more relevant to the character.*

The Strife system isn't about story hooks, its about bringing to life one of the things RPers always claim they care about, but typically negate through "RP," which is the disadvantages. Characters aren't perfect - especially some lvl 1 mooks fresh out of training. A character at rank 1 can't be expected to succeed at everything they do, and can't be expected to remain perfectly calm and composed at all times. When I play fighting games I feel frustrated when I'm not able to do things well, and even when I win games I can feel frustrated over my performance or the difficulty of my opposition. The Strife system seeks to accomplish this. If you feel your game is warped around Strife then I think you might encourage your group to stop fighting it, and just let it happen. If every dice roll and stance choice is about trying to keep your Composure pegged at 0 OF COURSE the system is going to seem tough... but it doesn't matter if you take a few points of strife, and it is Okay to have an Outburst here or there... Its not likely to happen every scene, and if it does its probably because the scenes are very involved - in which case it makes sense that the Strife (I really prefer Stress) is built up to the point that a character should be a bit agitated.

*Giri and Ninjo aren't new terms that FFG has come up with. They are the basis for many Samurai (and Japanese) drama, and are real parts of their culture.
https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/giri-vs-ninjo
http://www.midnighteye.com/features/samurai-cinema-101/

58 minutes ago, Moon of Dalo said:

How long has the beta been released?

Yeah I am firmly in the camp you didn't give the system a chance before you formed an opinion on it.

Kinzen's name is in the Credits of the Beta PDF, under the Additional Development Section. Just going to take a wild guess here that her, including the other folks under that section, has had some time with this system before the Beta went public.

May not change your question but just wanted to point that out.

5 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Does it really require tons of bookkeeping to track? Its easier than Wounds.

Have you played the game yet? Strife accumulates and gets removed on almost every roll . Combats last three, four, five rounds? How much combat are you getting into?

And while this seems painfully obvious, clearly not considering how often that silly comparison gets brought up and how many times it has to be explained.

We expect combat mechanics to be in a roleplaying game. Especially the one about samurai. I don't have the time or interest in LARPing or joining the SCA and hitting people with foam sticks. I'd also like to be able to play with my fat and out of shape friends, the small weak ones, maybe some 140 pound girls who won't like it when I put 195 pounds of former-Marine, current free-climber-and-surfer leverage into flattening her Crane samurai with my stick and knocking her on her butt. I'm also not interested in hiring a bunch of extras for my game sessions to play those bandits the PCs just encountered.

I need combat mechanics for my roleplaying game. Every game since the 70s has had them. I've tracked hit points, and condition monitors, and wounds, you name it. It's okay. I expect that to happen. And I've shot rifles, and competed in grappling tournaments, and even tried some basic swordplay. I understand the real world is kinda complicated, and there's a lot of physics involved with it. So if there's a little bit of crunch to it, I'm okay. It needs to be there.

I don't need to track Strife. It doesn't do anything valuable.

one of the things RPers always

claim they care about, but typically negate through "RP," which is the disadvantages.

That's your table's problem, not mine. Teach people how to roleplay, or select the people you play with better.

*Giri and Ninjo aren't new terms that FFG has come up with. They are the basis for many Samurai (and Japanese) drama, and are real parts of their culture.

https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/giri-vs-ninjo
http://www.midnighteye.com/features/samurai-cinema-101/

Who said they did?

10 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

I don't have the time or interest in LARPing or joining the SCA and hitting people with foam sticks. I'd also like to be able to play with my fat and out of shape friends, the small weak ones, maybe some 140 pound girls who won't like it when I put 195 pounds of former-Marine, current free-climber-and-surfer leverage into flattening her Crane samurai with my stick and knocking her on her butt. I'm also not interested in hiring a bunch of extras for my game sessions to play those bandits the PCs just encountered.

Because I'm feeling pithy...

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That's your [group]'s problem, not mine. Teach people how to [LARP/SCA-fight], or select the people you play with better.

2 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

We expect

I think I can reduce your entire post to this. You expect a game to give you combat roles, while you RP whatever fantasy you have. Do you not recognize the dissonance between these two concepts? Why not simply RP the combat? If I describe my combat maneuver really well would you not have me roll for it still? Do you not use the system to roll for social encounters? Just because its been done a way before, or because you've done it a certain way before, doesn't mean there aren't new ways to do things or that they can't work.

While you track your wounds, in a world where "honor is stronger than steal" do you really not see any reason to incorporate the mental state of your characters to stats the same way you attribute everything else?

Did you never use Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom in your D&D games? Or were these just "str for bards" "str for wiz" and "str for clerics" ?

I don't think the problem is with my group. As the Strife system sits currently it needs improvement - but the response has been positive for a player to think "my character is going to outburst now, so what form does that take? and more so, how can I approach the scene now?"

Drop your expectations and try playing with the system. It really isn't that bad.

Obviously I also want to let my tongue-tied, less-clever friends to be able to play courtiers, too, just as I want my fat friends to be able to play a powerful warrior. I also want to let my less-educated, not-so-bright friends play a sagely wizard if they want to. That's why there are social mechanics, and combat mechanics, and spellcasting mechanics, and skill mechanics. These are things that the players cannot do in real life. I don't need mechanics so they can spaz out if they didn't do their Quarterly Strife Planning properly or their Strife Expenses have exceeded their Strife-Reducing Revenue, possibly because their Strife Business Plan during chargen was poor or their character concept just didn't give them the right Traits.

Clearly you just want to be combative for the sake of, since you've typed a lot of words and not offered anything valuable to the conversation aside from an Opportunity for me to do an easy takedown of the Strife mechanic, so there's no point in continuing this discussion. You want Strife to work, so you will defend it to the death, no matter how nonsensically. Carry on. Just carry on with someone else. There's a great line from the movie Heat by Al Pacino's character about what you shouldn't do with his time.

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Because I'm feeling pithy...

Oh, I get it.

18 minutes ago, shosuko said:

While you track your wounds, in a world where "honor is stronger than steal" do you really not see any reason to incorporate the mental state of your characters to stats the same way you attribute everything else?

1

Hey, I can feel how my character feels when others are mean to him. I can't feel how he feels from taking an axe to the face.

One thing to try and keep in mind with the strife mechanic is that it isn't going away. There isn't any reason to try and get poeple who don't like to change their mind. They tried it, they didn't like it. Equally trying to explain to people that do like that they are wrong isn't going to get us anywhere. What we are currently in more need of is some discourse on how to change it within the system we have been provided that we can work it in to a shape people will enjoy.

Just now, Darksyde said:

One thing to try and keep in mind with the strife mechanic is that it isn't going away.

From my past experiences, I wouldn't bet on that.

17 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

Oh, I get it.

Though, it bears to be said I think you may have misspelled the word "stupid."

If you're going to call out someone on their spelling, be sure to not mix up 'stupid' with 'amazingly adorkable'.

Kudos to missing the point with Tyler Durden, though.

49 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

Obviously I also want to let my tongue-tied, less-clever friends to be able to play courtiers, too, just as I want my fat friends to be able to play a powerful warrior. I also want to let my less-educated, not-so-bright friends play a sagely wizard if they want to. That's why there are social mechanics, and combat mechanics, and spellcasting mechanics, and skill mechanics. These are things that the players cannot do in real life. I don't need mechanics so they can spaz out if they didn't do their Quarterly Strife Planning properly or their Strife Expenses have exceeded their Strife-Reducing Revenue, possibly because their Strife Business Plan during chargen was poor or their character concept just didn't give them the right Traits.

Clearly you just want to be combative for the sake of, since you've typed a lot of words and not offered anything valuable to the conversation aside from an Opportunity for me to do an easy takedown of the Strife mechanic, so there's no point in continuing this discussion. You want Strife to work, so you will defend it to the death, no matter how nonsensically. Carry on. Just carry on with someone else. There's a great line from the movie Heat by Al Pacino's character about what you shouldn't do with his time.

Oh, I get it.

And just as wounds tell your player when they've taken too much damage, Strife tells your player when they've taken too much stress - so they don't keep role playing through tense situations without any cost to their actions.

You make Strife sound so complex that I feel I can safely assume your group is committing every action in FEAR of an Outburst as if an Outburst was some sort of negative play environment. Let me paste examples of "spazing out" and you can tell me just how detrimental you think this would be in any scene

Shut Down

The character locks up, becoming withdrawn, silent, or generally un-responsive. The character does not lose face, but also cannot perform Attack or Scheme actions. Increase the TN of Scheme checks targeting the character by 1 until the end of the scene. At the end of the scene, the character removes Strife until their Strife is equal to half of their composure.

Or Expose a Weakness

The character gives away a vital hint about one of their weaknesses, either through a physical tell that makes it obvious or an ill-considered word that reveals it to others. This exposure of weakness catches the other characters in the scene off guard. The character chooses one of their disadvantages they have not revealed in this manner this session; each other character in the scene learns of that disadvantage. Until the end of the scene, reduce the TN of Scheme checks made by the character who exposed their weakness. At the end of the scene, the character removes Strife until their Strife is equal to half of their Composure.

Just what is so bad about these? What is scary about them? They add a bit of nuance to the characters the same way Wounds and Crits add nuance to combat. I'm certain you wouldn't describe tracking Wounds and Crits as some taxing mini-game you MUST play just because you want your character to stay alive, yet you talk about how horrible an Outburst can be. Did you even look at the crit charts? There is possible maimed limb, deafness, lost arm, blindness, and more in this chart! If your player can't stand their character getting a bit anxious, how do you think they'll react when they lose an arm or get blinded in combat?

11 hours ago, WHW said:

As for Kinzen and Strife - it would be easier to identify the problems if you shared specific examples, because again, my GMing and play experience draws an entirely picture of the thing. Betweem 6 people I've tried this system on, nobody had any roleplaying or management problems with Strife. But they also like the more involved process of selecting dice results to keep, so maybe its that.

The reason I haven't done this is because all it will do is invite cherry-picking about the specifics and how if we'd just done XYZ then PC A wouldn't have had an Outburst or PC B could have used that Strife to augment their combat actions or whatever. My problems aren't with the specifics of any given situation; they're with the underlying principles . There is no "well, if you had just done this, that, and the other thing" that will change the fact that Strife gain is currently unpredictable, randomized, complex, potentially involved with every single roll the PCs take, and at best optionally and tenuously connected to what are theoretically the sources of grand drama in the setting.

And as TheVeterantSergeant has pointed out , it's unavoidable . It is baked so thoroughly into the core of the mechanics that if you don't like it, you have only two options: 1) massively rewrite the system or 2) play something else.

1 hour ago, BlindSamurai13 said:

Kinzen's name is in the Credits of the Beta PDF, under the Additional Development Section. Just going to take a wild guess here that her, including the other folks under that section, has had some time with this system before the Beta went public.

To be fair, my forum name and my name in the credits are different. But yes, I was in the alpha playtest. Which is why I don't have much (if any) hope for seeing the core framework for Strife change, alas.

2 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

The reason I haven't done this is because all it will do is invite cherry-picking about the specifics and how if we'd just done XYZ then PC A wouldn't have had an Outburst or PC B could have used that Strife to augment their combat actions or whatever. My problems aren't with the specifics of any given situation; they're with the underlying principles . There is no "well, if you had just done this, that, and the other thing" that will change the fact that Strife gain is currently unpredictable, randomized, complex, potentially involved with every single roll the PCs take, and at best optionally and tenuously connected to what are theoretically the sources of grand drama in the setting.

And as TheVeterantSergeant has pointed out , it's unavoidable . It is baked so thoroughly into the core of the mechanics that if you don't like it, you have only two options: 1) massively rewrite the system or 2) play something else.

Its not about "should have done x y z and you would have voided an outburst," its about what outburst you played out that made them so bad. Did you actually play out an outburst? if you did, what was so detrimental that you'd have such strong hatred for a system that seems pretty benign, and in character for a game where control over composure is important?

8 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

And as TheVeterantSergeant has pointed out , it's unavoidable . It is baked so thoroughly into the core of the mechanics that if you don't like it, you have only two options: 1) massively rewrite the system or 2) play something else.

I kinda disagree here. Strife is not that integral to the system. I have seen a session without it, and there were no problems at all. The whole mechanic is easy to ignore and its absence does nothing too interesting with the game. At the very worst, if you are really fond to the symbol, then you can adapt the Threat result 1:1 from the SW RPG. So every cherry blossom petal is a Threat, and Strife is Strain. Problem solved, swiftly and elegantly, and without too much fuss.

If Strife and Outbursts are no big deal, not that detrimental, just sort of "meh" or can be ignored then that actually makes the system worse in my opinion for at least two reasons:

1) if it's no big deal, then why are there so many mechanics and rules that we have to keep track of? and

2) this devalues ninjo and giri.

I want ninjo and giri to matter. I want going against them to be big story moments that have detrimental effects on the characters. I want a samurai's decision to leave the secluded mountaintop temple where she is seaking enlightenment after years of warfare to go back to war on the orders of her Lord to mean something. I want this to matter. To take an example from some other L5R material, I want a samurai's decision of whether to return the corpse of his best friend in a timely fashion or to continue on with his mission to be a heartbreaking decision. I want the table to stop and think, "wow, that's tough," not "ok I disclose my blind disadvantage, and I'll cut my Strife in half at the end of the scene."

I think about Wong Kar-wai's movie In The Mood For Love. For me, that film is the epitome of a narrative driven by the conflict of duty and passion. (Shameless plug - everyone should watch it; it is great). That's what I want from a strife-like system and ninjo and giri mechanics, and that's not what I'm getting from them currently.

I know these moments are possible because I've had them before in L5R games, and my fear is implementing this strife system will actively undermine that.

For my next couple of games, I'll actively look at what happens with outbursts that have big effects and ones that have little effects and report back what I find out.

@cparadis10 I don't think there are really that many mechanics to keep track of. When you roll dice you keep any Strife on Kept dice. Add this to your Composure. If your Composure is full then you have an Outburst. That's it. Some people make it sound like there is some mini-game involved, or budgeting or some such, but there really isn't.

Strife isn't supposed to overlap Ninjo / Giri. They are separate things. Ninjo / Giri have to do with plot decisions. Do you follow your lord's orders and execute the criminal? Or do you let the criminal escape because you realize he is just a poor farmer trying to feed his family? That is Ninjo / Giri.

Strife is more like - I'm getting caught up in the emotions of being successful, and getting over-confident so my calm facade lifts revealing my passion of the moment and I act out in some way that breaks that "character" facade that I typically speak through.

The system isn't perfect, but do you understand the goal of the system? It's basically there to spice up scenes so that you can either focus on remaining calm, with a resolve of steel, or you become impassioned and your emotions slip through your mask of civility.

The main problem I see with the system is that it is tied too-directly to success. There isn't a frustration in failure. That, and the system is a bit binary in that you are either stoic or have an outburst and that's it. The system needs work, but I don't agree the system is bulky, unwieldy, or that it takes control away from my character - I still control my character and HOW I outburst.

@shosuko a lot of good points in there! A lot for me to keep thinking about when we play. I would say there is some overlap with ninjo/giri and strife since not following your ninjo or giri can cause strife (see Ninjo and Strife p. 22 and Giri and Strife p. 24), but maybe I'd like the system more if it didn't overlap so much. Again, you are give me a lot to think about. Thank you.

There are mechanics, lots of mechanics to keep track of on Strife. absolutely. Its not just bookkeeping or choosing dice. Its choosing to change stances when you think you are in danger of a outburst, its choosing how you spend your opportunity. Its choosing to risk yourself or not. Is choosing if you gonna try cause a outburst on your opponent or not.

Its a core part of the system even in a powergamer way of thinking. Conflicts relying heavily on it make for that case (On Court you simply shutdown an opponent, On Duel or Clash you deliver a mean critical strike that do not cost actions (Free attack).

Just wiping away from the game, as i believe it was suggested? (Didnt read the whole thing) would make the system shallow at best. Since there is so much tied to it.

4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I kinda disagree here. Strife is not that integral to the system. I have seen a session without it, and there were no problems at all. The whole mechanic is easy to ignore and its absence does nothing too interesting with the game.

Didn't you say everyone just used Fire a lot more? That would basically upset the entire game dynamic because Fire is significantly more powerful than the other stances in terms of raw success generation. Its balance is the risk/reward valuation. If you ignore Strife results entirely, it skews the risk/reward mechanic and would require harder Target Numbers to offset, and not just for Fire checks. I mean, Strife is on the dice, and all of the core mechanics like Approaches, Stances, and Opportunities are based around the idea of Strife being integral to the dice results. If you keep the Stances, it also skews their value. Air and Earth are good, Void is Useless, Water is low-value, and Fire is either Awesome or Useless depending on how you choose to read dice results. There are a lot of cascading effects of removing Strife from the mechanics if you care about preserving any semblance of balance in the system.

What people (on both sides) seem to be ignoring, and which needs to be called out in text, is that most outbursts should be an immediate honor hit - maybe only 1, maybe 5... and in public, a similar or larger glory (aka face) hit.

It basically boils down to two sides, those that want strife associated to die rolls and those that don't.

Chances are they will stay attached to them. The mutable part will be how they affect the game.

There is likely a happy medium for all the players who are open to trying the new system, and those are the ones the beta tends to be most geared towards. You can't beta something you have already decided to hate or love no matter what changes are made.

A realization:

Ninjo and Giri are not supposed to be compatible. Meaning you are rarely going to be working towards both at the same time. You have this inner pull of your own desires, fighting against your cultural NEED to adhere to your Lord's commands. And this internal struggle is ever present.

Thus, also: to strife.

Strife is an ever present possibility, where your constantly reminded that your actions likely go against either your Ninjo or Giri, if not both. L5R is not a setting of Work/Life balance, so stress builds as Strife, until an outburst occurs.