3 minutes ago, Stone37 said:

And THAT was a good rule change. Doesn't change any print on the cards, just a rules clarification. Changing what a card actually says is always sloppy and confusing. IMHO, I think all the changes (except for the point changes on the characters) were good moves. FFG has got to do a better job of play testing. Fasthands, Vidborkife, and a few characters are just a few examples of how poorly this game is being designed. It has a FANTASTIC system, but it's not the only show in town. (See ASHES: Rise of the Phoenixborn for a better designed LCG game.) This move has caused me to lose all faith in FFG's ability to properly run a CCG.

You clearly don’t come from a CCG background if you think that. This is actually quite tame compared to WotC and other CCG companies that will restrict or outright ban cards from competitive play rather than do a simple errata to leave them playable in a competition format. I think they handled the RRG well without resorting to the standard you see in other CCGs.

14 minutes ago, Destraa said:

You clearly don’t come from a CCG background if you think that. This is actually quite tame compared to WotC and other CCG companies that will restrict or outright ban cards from competitive play rather than do a simple errata to leave them playable in a competition format. I think they handled the RRG well without resorting to the standard you see in other CCGs.

I do actually.

ANY game that needs to change the wording on a card (and not what the words mean) is poorly play-tested and designed.

17 minutes ago, Stone37 said:

I do actually.

ANY game that needs to change the wording on a card (and not what the words mean) is poorly play-tested and designed.

Clearly you haven't played any other CCG beside Destiny in the last 10 years or so.

Just to give you a recent example. Last year MtG (the "best" and "most playtested" CCG of the history) crew had to BAN one card and heavily ERRATA another BEFORE they even hit the physical tables. (Yes, they banned a card when it was still in the boosters for distribution...). You were already buying dead cards with that expansion.

I do agree that FFG needs to better the way they design and playtest cards, though.

4 minutes ago, blackholexan said:

Clearly you haven't played any other CCG beside Destiny in the last 10 years or so.

Just to give you a recent example. Last year MtG (the "best" and "most playtested" CCG of the history) crew had to BAN one card and heavily ERRATA another BEFORE they even hit the physical tables. (Yes, they banned a card when it was still in the boosters for distribution...)

You were already buying dead cards with that expansion.

I do agree that FFG needs to better the way they design and playtest cards, though.

That’s just recently too. That’s not even scratching the paint either in terms of erratas and bans across nearly two decades of the game’s existence.

And I stand by my statement... ALL poor decisions caused by rushed products and lack or proper play testing.

The 2 Player set isn't even 2 months old yet! The point changes were a knee-jerk hasty move. X-wing (and yes it has it's problems too) always was slow to do such things and attempted to fix balance issues with titles and other cards.

Look, I get it. You like this game. I do too! It doesn't mean we can't criticize it. We've put a lot of money into this game and FFG's recent actions gives me no confidence that they can maintain this game. What's next? Are they going to ERRATA cards from Legacy the day they come out? This is HEAVILY criticized in the video game world (day of bug fixes) and should be by us in the table top community as well.

11 minutes ago, Stone37 said:

And I stand by my statement... ALL poor decisions caused by rushed products and lack or proper play testing.

The 2 Player set isn't even 2 months old yet! The point changes were a knee-jerk hasty move. X-wing (and yes it has it's problems too) always was slow to do such things and attempted to fix balance issues with titles and other cards.

Look, I get it. You like this game. I do too! It doesn't mean we can't criticize it. We've put a lot of money into this game and FFG's recent actions gives me no confidence that they can maintain this game. What's next? Are they going to ERRATA cards from Legacy the day they come out? This is HEAVILY criticized in the video game world (day of bug fixes) and should be by us in the table top community as well.

As I stated earlier, I DO agree on the lack of playtesting.

At the same time, nevertheless, I appreciated that something has been done instead of just leaving the things as they were or simply banning cards.

My hopes are the new design and playtest staff is prepared to this challenge.

The cost/life/dice value point ratio was off scale on all the 3 changed characters (I could adda couple more, actually) and even if there are 5 characters that instead are quite unplayable for the opposite reason (waaaaay overcosted), I have never seen a CCG staff doing buffs.

A more diverse meta was needed: 5 Nationals won by the same deck and 4 decks being 85% of the field make the game NO fun at all.

I get your point on 2 player set and agree on the rushed publishing. THAT product was indeed rushed to the market and present very good cards but overpowered characters (I look at you Kylo, too!)

3 minutes ago, blackholexan said:

As I stated earlier, I DO agree on the lack of playtesting.

At the same time, nevertheless, I appreciated that something has been done instead of just leaving the things as they were or simply banning cards.

My hopes are the new design and playtest staff is prepared to this challenge.

The cost/life/dice value point ratio was off scale on all the 3 changed characters (I could adda couple more, actually) and even if there are 5 characters that instead are quite unplayable for the opposite reason (waaaaay overcosted), I have never seen a CCG staff doing buffs.

A more diverse meta was needed: 5 Nationals won by the same deck and 4 decks being 85% of the field make the game NO fun at all.

Banning would have been even worse... but why not FIRST (before changing print on cards) try out the rule changes. Nerfing the Vibroknife to just the die itself and limiting abilities and upgrade-swaps to once per round would have had an impact. It might have been enough. We'll never know because it wasn't given a chance.

If these characters are SO broken that the only way to fix this game was through the means FFG implemented... I again make my criticism of how they have handled the development of this game.

1 minute ago, Stone37 said:

Nerfing the Vibroknife to just the die itself and limiting abilities and upgrade-swaps to once per round would have had an impact.

Have you read the rules instead of the article? (the article has a few errors...)

Now, Vibroknife works like Electrostaff and I'm really fine with it. You can still do plenty of unblocakable damage with it without making it universally overpowered (and hindering shield strategies completely).

1 minute ago, blackholexan said:

Have you read the rules instead of the article? (the article has a few errors...)

Now, Vibroknife works like Electrostaff and I'm really fine with it. You can still do plenty of unblocakable damage with it without making it universally overpowered (and hindering shield strategies completely).

I did and understand them. FFG can't write an article (see criticism about play-testing and apply to proof-reading) about rules without errors. I think ALL of the changes outside of the character points were good ones and well crafted. While, yes, the wording on Vibroknife has changed it is not as intrusive as changing character points.

59 minutes ago, Stone37 said:

I did and understand them. FFG can't write an article (see criticism about play-testing and apply to proof-reading) about rules without errors. I think ALL of the changes outside of the character points were good ones and well crafted. While, yes, the wording on Vibroknife has changed it is not as intrusive as changing character points.

I understand that you’re upset, Stone, but changing costs is way better than changing text. It’s by far the neatest way to nerf something. I come from X-Wing, which has devolved into a horribly unbalanced game, partly because it’s very hard to nerf ships (the X-Wing equivalent of characters) with errata. They’ve targeted the same ship three different times by attacking several of the cards that it gets used with, but the ship is still disgustingly broken because it’s just too cheap. If X-Wing had had the guts to just change the costs on a few ships, that would be the same amount of things (just different things) that you have to remember when using those ships, and three less erratas that everyone has to keep track of when building a list.

1 hour ago, blackholexan said:

Have you read the rules instead of the article? (the article has a few errors...)

Now, Vibroknife works like Electrostaff and I'm really fine with it. You can still do plenty of unblocakable damage with it without making it universally overpowered (and hindering shield strategies completely).

While vibroknife does now work with electrostaff. The electrostaff part of the damage doesn't become unblockabe. Only the vibroknife and what it modifies are unlockable. It's not as complicated as it may sound.

2 hours ago, ozmodon said:

While vibroknife does now work with electrostaff. The electrostaff part of the damage doesn't become unblockabe. Only the vibroknife and what it modifies are unlockable. It's not as complicated as it may sound.

Ozmodon I believe that they are referring to the modification that electrostaff applies to the virbroknife because the vibroknife is still doing the damage but the electrostaff is only modifying the damage of vibroknife.

7 hours ago, Stone37 said:

I do actually.

ANY game that needs to change the wording on a card (and not what the words mean) is poorly play-tested and designed.

We don't get to see how the sausage is made. Through play testing they may have removed 100 bad things and let 5 errors get through to printing that needs to be addressed post printing. It isn't realistic for such a large game with so many cards and so many interactions to be published perfect. That will never happen.

It is however realistic for customers to expect cards that have been errata to be reprinted correctly and given out or changed out so cards people play with are worded correctly, regardless of which game it is (looking at you X-Wing).

2 hours ago, Mep said:

We don't get to see how the sausage is made. Through play testing they may have removed 100 bad things and let 5 errors get through to printing that needs to be addressed post printing. It isn't realistic for such a large game with so many cards and so many interactions to be published perfect. That will never happen.

It is however realistic for customers to expect cards that have been errata to be reprinted correctly and given out or changed out so cards people play with are worded correctly, regardless of which game it is (looking at you X-Wing).

And not as prize support. Also looking at you, X-Wing.

8 hours ago, ozmodon said:

While vibroknife does now work with electrostaff. The electrostaff part of the damage doesn't become unblockabe. Only the vibroknife and what it modifies are unlockable. It's not as complicated as it may sound.

Hate to say it but this is incorrect. The Vibroknife modifier makes the base die unblockable, and modifiers increase the value of that unblockable base die.

So a base die showing 3M, modified by the Electrostaff with +3M damage, and the Vibroknife +2M damage, is 8 unblockable damage.

Consider the FAQ on Dooku, which clarifies this point: a modified die is one base source of damage, the value of which has been increased by modifiers. The Vibroknife gives the base die unblockable, regardless of its value. So any number of modifiers can be unblockable, so long as they’re affecting the same base die as the Vibroknife.

4 hours ago, Ajones47 said:

Hate to say it but this is incorrect. The Vibroknife modifier makes the base die unblockable, and modifiers increase the value of that unblockable base die.

So a base die showing 3M, modified by the Electrostaff with +3M damage, and the Vibroknife +2M damage, is 8 unblockable damage.

Consider the FAQ on Dooku, which clarifies this point: a modified die is one base source of damage, the value of which has been increased by modifiers. The Vibroknife gives the base die unblockable, regardless of its value. So any number of modifiers can be unblockable, so long as they’re affecting the same base die as the Vibroknife.

Yep, Vibro makes itself and any die it modifies deal unblockable damage, when you modify Vibro's base damage it is the vibro die that is doing All the damage (so electro shock +3 on Vibros 1 is 4 unblockable) in the case when it is modifying a Die making that die unblockable any further modifications to that die are also unblockable as the vibro knife made the die doing the damage (the die with the base side) unblockable. Modified dice do not deal damage they modify the value of the base die that is doing the damage.

Edit: also thinking about the title of this thread and with the recent changes I feel Fantasy Flight answered the question the same as the old man from A Knights tale (the quote goes "with a stick while he slept, but with a lance on a horse that man is unbeatable") in this case I was thinking "with a nerf hammer in the Rules Reference, but at a Tourney at full strength with good rolls, that deck is unbeatable" lol.

Gotta love how this thread turned into an RRG discussion when said RRG will not be legal yet for our Nationals ?

I still have to deal with tons of Kylo/FN most likely.

On 2017-10-25 at 10:24 AM, Stone37 said:

I do actually.

ANY game that needs to change the wording on a card (and not what the words mean) is poorly play-tested and designed.

Problem is your black and white thinking... 5 errata and you say "poorly". "Not enough" would be a better word. In the past 20 years i played almost all ccg and I can tell there was "poorly" playtested games, Destiny is not one of them.

Chak

I suggest resolving dice showing damage results.