So theoretically if a player is at 1 honor and a -1 effect and +1 effect happen which effect will hit first? An example of this is a player has a Honored Personality and a Dishonored Personality and they are at 1 Honor. Do they hit 0 and instantly lose before the +1 gets applied or does the +1 hit first?

The characters are discarded simultaneously (if this is the Fate Phase cleanup). I believe ordering in L5R is typically done by the first player, but correct me if I'm wrong. And that may just apply to simultaneous forced reactions, rather than game actions. I don't see any explicit definition of the timing window for honoring/dishonoring in the Rules Reference, so it's very possible that they're handled simultaneously as well, meaning the order doesn't matter.

Edit: Yeah, the first-player ordering is specifically for forced reactions: "5. Forced reactions that reference the triggering condition must resolve, in the order determined by the first player"

Edit 2: On the other hand:

"4.2. Discard characters with no fate In player order, each player discards each character he or she controls with no fate on it. These characters are discarded one at a time, in the order of the discarding player’s choosing."

This would suggest that your personalities won't leave play simultaneously during the fate phase. The order is of the discarding-player's choosing, so the player would have their choice.

19 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

"4.2. Discard characters with no fate In player order, each player discards each character he or she controls with no fate on it. These characters are discarded one at a time, in the order of the discarding player’s choosing."

This is the order for discarding characters in the fate phase, so just make sure you discard your honored first.

For Fate Phase 4.2, the player that controls those characters decides in which order they are discarded. For events and triggered abilities, they happen in the order they are played/activated. If there are multiple reactions that can be played/triggered they are done so one at a time, starting with the First Player and alternating back and forth, with each player having the option to pass. If there are multiple triggers that happen at the same time, the First Player decides the order in which they are resolved.

Current Rules Reference, page 10. Interrupts , paragraph 3 & 4.

Quote

Within the interrupt window, the first player always has the first opportunity to initiate an eligible interrupt (to the triggering condition that opened the window), or pass. Opportunities to initiate an eligible interrupt, or pass, continue to alternate between the players until all players consecutively pass, at which point the interrupt window closes. Passing does not prevent a player from initiating an eligible interrupt later in that same interrupt window.

Once an interrupt window closes, further interrupts to that specific triggering condition cannot be initiated. The triggering condition now completes its resolution (as long as its effects have not been canceled).

Current Rules Reference, pages 12-13. Priority of Simultaneous Resolution

Quote

If a single effect affects multiple players simultaneously, but the players must individually make choices to resolve the effect, the first player chooses first, followed by his or her opponent. Once all necessary choices have been made, the effect resolves simultaneously upon all affected entities.

• If the resolution of two or more delayed effects or forced abilities would resolve at the same time, the first player decides the order in which the abilities resolve, regardless of who controls the cards bearing the conflicting abilities.
• If two or more constant abilities and/or lasting effects can be applied simultaneously, they are. If two or more constant abilities and/or lasting effects cannot be applied simultaneously, the first player determines the order in which they are applied.

Personal honor/dishonor tokens say "Forced Interrupt: ...", while the rulebook seems to imply that honor gain/loss fonctions in a way similar to the Sincerity and Courtesy keywords. So what timing do they use, interrupt or keyword?

6 minutes ago, mplain said:

Personal honor/dishonor tokens say "Forced Interrupt: ...", while the rulebook seems to imply that honor gain/loss fonctions in a way similar to the Sincerity and Courtesy keywords. So what timing do they use, interrupt or keyword?

Page 7 of the RR under "Forced"

They have higher priority than normal Interrupts, but Keywords trigger first?

The "forced" part is not my question. How would you know they're interrupts at all if you only read the rulebook but didn't have physical cards/tokens yet?

1 minute ago, mplain said:

The "forced" part is not my question. How would you know they're interrupts at all if you only read the rulebook but didn't have physical cards/tokens yet?

Good point

5 minutes ago, mplain said:

The "forced" part is not my question. How would you know they're interrupts at all if you only read the rulebook but didn't have physical cards/tokens yet?

I would think if you're reading the rulebook to play, you would have bought a copy of the game, and would have the status tokens. Is the concern that the rules for the status tokens read differently than the rules for forced interrupts?

11 minutes ago, LuceLineGames said:

I would think if you're reading the rulebook to play, you would have bought a copy of the game, and would have the status tokens. Is the concern that the rules for the status tokens read differently than the rules for forced interrupts?

The concern is that the Rules reference doesn't match the printed text on the status tokens. Status tokens use the words "Forced Interrupt" indicating it is a triggered ability of some form. The RR under Personal honor (Pg 12) does not.

6 minutes ago, Mirith said:

The concern is that the Rules reference doesn't match the printed text on the status tokens. Status tokens use the words "Forced Interrupt" indicating it is a triggered ability of some form. The RR under Personal honor (Pg 12) does not.

I don't see anything conflicting between the Personal Honor section and Forced Interrupt section, and the card itself. Between those three, you know exactly how it would resolve.

54 minutes ago, LuceLineGames said:

I don't see anything conflicting between the Personal Honor section and Forced Interrupt section, and the card itself. Between those three, you know exactly how it would resolve.

Yes, but requires having the printed card to see that it is a "Forced interrupt". You would expect the Rules Reference to reference that text. Most everyone hates the little placards.

1 minute ago, Mirith said:

Yes, but requires having the printed card to see that it is a "Forced interrupt". You would expect the Rules Reference to reference that text. Most everyone hates the little placards.

I see what you're saying, but don't think it's a rules issue. I play with tokens instead of the cards as well and have to remember all the ways the status works without having a card. Fortunately, everyone has the printed cards as a core set is required to play.

1 hour ago, LuceLineGames said:

I would think if you're reading the rulebook to play, you would have bought a copy of the game, and would have the status tokens.

Why would you think so? The rulebook isn't even in the box!

1 hour ago, LuceLineGames said:

Is the concern that the rules for the status tokens read differently than the rules for forced interrupts?

I would go as far as to say that the text on the tokens is contradictory to the rulebook.

4 minutes ago, mplain said:

Why would you think so? The rulebook isn't even in the box!

I would go as far as to say that the text on the tokens is contradictory to the rulebook.

Can you quote it? I didn't note any contradictory text.

Quote

When an honored character leaves play its controller gains 1 honor.

When a dishonored character leaves play its controller loses 1 honor.

Quote

When a card with the courtesy keyword leaves play, its controller gains 1 fate.

When a card with the sincerity keyword leaves play, its controller draws 1 card.

I'd say these entries read in a way that implies they function the same way and have the same timing.

I guess you could say that the text on the tokens 'clarifies' the timing and doesn't actually contradict what's written in the rulebook.

But I'd say the omission of such an important detail, in context of the entries for keywords, it outright misleading. That's a bit beyond 'ambiguous' and 'unclear'.

I'm not really following. This seems like such a non-issue. I'm unsure how it's unclear or misleading.

They have the same timing. It's pretty straightforward.

2 minutes ago, LuceLineGames said:

Can you quote it? I didn't note any contradictory text.

The text on the status token placards (which is a fun word we should use more often) reference a "Forced Interrupt: When this character leaves play - Lose/Gain 1 honor". No where in the RR does the text: "Forced Interrupt:" appear. The text in the RR implies it is a constant ability, while the placard says it is a triggered ability, but forced. The timing on these are different.

From RR:

Quote

◊ When a character is honored, it receives an honored status token to indicate its honored status. An honored character adds its glory value to both its military and political skill so long as it possesses that token. When an honored character leaves play its controller gains 1 honor

I don't have a picture of the dis/honored placard.

10 minutes ago, mplain said:

I'd say these entries read in a way that implies they function the same way and have the same timing.

I guess you could say that the text on the tokens 'clarifies' the timing and doesn't actually contradict what's written in the rulebook.

But I'd say the omission of such an important detail, in context of the entries for keywords, it outright misleading. That's a bit beyond 'ambiguous' and 'unclear'.

I'm finding keywords more ambiguous than status tokens. I know how to resolve the timing of the forced interrupt, but can't find any guidance on timing of the keywords.

3 minutes ago, Mirith said:

The text on the status token placards (which is a fun word we should use more often) reference a "Forced Interrupt: When this character leaves play - Lose/Gain 1 honor". No where in the RR does the text: "Forced Interrupt:" appear. The text in the RR implies it is a constant ability, while the placard says it is a triggered ability, but forced. The timing on these are different.

Quote

Forced ( Forced Interrupts , Forced Reactions)
While most triggered abilities are optional, some interrupt and
reaction abilities are preceded by the word “Forced.” Such
abilities must be resolved immediately whenever the triggering
condition specified in the ability text occurs.
For any given triggering condition, forced interrupts take
priority and initiate before non-forced interrupts, and
forced reactions take priority and initiate before non-forced
reactions.
If two or more forced abilities would initiate at the same
moment, the first player determines the order in which
the abilities initiate, regardless of who controls the cards
bearing those abilities.
Each forced ability must resolve completely before the next
forced ability to the same triggering condition may initiate.

I don't think the rules reference implies anything for the status token. I think it isn't as descriptive as you'd like it to be in the rules reference, but it's clearly printed on the card so it's not misunderstood.

5 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I'm not really following. This seems like such a non-issue. I'm unsure how it's unclear or misleading.

They have the same timing. It's pretty straightforward.

Umm. The tokens say "Forced Interrupt", those have a different timing from keywords. So it's a matter of what you trust more, the tokens or the rulebook.

Also, what triggers first, forced interrupts or keywords? oO

Just now, LuceLineGames said:

I don't think the rules reference implies anything for the status token. I think it isn't as descriptive as you'd like it to be in the rules reference, but it's clearly printed on the card so it's not misunderstood.

Except tokens are not cards, so there's zero incentive to regard anything that's written on them. The Jade Rule doesn't apply to puny tokens!

34 minutes ago, mplain said:

Umm. The tokens say "Forced Interrupt", those have a different timing from keywords. So it's a matter of what you trust more, the tokens or the rulebook.

Also, what triggers first, forced interrupts or keywords? oO

The status token is non-ambiguous. Let's agree on that, and continue the discussion on what the timing is for the reactions keywords.

Me, I will not agree on that. I believe the devs erroneously printed some defunct text on the tokens that shouldn't be regarded as rules text.

But that's just me.

Just now, mplain said:

Me, I will not agree on that. I believe the devs erroneously printed some defunct text on the tokens that shouldn't be regarded as rules text.

But that's just me.

Do you really think they would admit that? You will have to take their forced interrupt status from their cold dead hands, there's no backing away from it now, it would be too huge of a mistake. I think a question to the developer would be worth it for the timing of keywords, seeing as it isn't defined and it is close wording to the status.