Does anyone think they have a good estimate on how long eight rounds of battle lasts for the actual participants? Are they fighting for an hour? Or is everything over in just a few minutes? How long does it take to shoot eight volleys of arrows?

I would abstract archers into shooting as frequently as possible vs one volley for each roll. But I'm no expert on "medieval" rank and file warfare, so idk how long combat could last.

Very interesting topic. I'm not sure how abstract the game is. Is it really 8 infantry soldiers in a 2-tray unit, with only an additional 8 in a 4-tray unit? If we assume that's the case, battles will probably move along at a good clip, lasting only 30-40 minutes (not including positioning). Historic battles could last hours, iirc, but they had hundreds, sometimes thousands, of soldiers to move into position, and even to fall back and regroup while a new unit stepped in to relieve them, keeping morale high.

I'm no expert, so I hope somebody with an interest in historic battles can add their insight.

3 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Very interesting topic. I'm not sure how abstract the game is. Is it really 8 infantry soldiers in a 2-tray unit, with only an additional 8 in a 4-tray unit? If we assume that's the case, battles will probably move along at a good clip, lasting only 30-40 minutes (not including positioning). Historic battles could last hours, iirc, but they had hundreds, sometimes thousands, of soldiers to move into position, and even to fall back and regroup while a new unit stepped in to relieve them, keeping morale high.

I'm no expert, so I hope somebody with an interest in historic battles can add their insight.

I like the idea of the figures representing the soldiers in the battle, but the numbers seem small enough that they wouldn't really need to rely on rank and file in real life. I could honestly see the whole eight rounds of battle only taking a few minutes. It seems like it takes ages for things like horses that get hung up on terrain to get back to the battle, but it makes sense if each round takes less than a minute.

Well the realistic side of said 8 infantry soldiers isnt as dramatic as movies make it out to be.

Often in a melee with swords, maces, pikes, etc there wasnt even a fight between two people. Generally the first person to even land a hit won, even if it wasnt a very good hit. Two swordsmen meeting on a battlefield might clash swords a couple times before one of them notices an opening, takes it, and moves on.

Battles really only took long periods of time when thousands were involved or it was a siege. For obvious reasons if a siege weapon is involved the battle slowed down dramatically.

I usually just remember the time a turn takes in pen and paper games, a turn is approximately 6 seconds and an inch is 5 feet...factor in that multiply for scale I would not think battles would be more than 5 minutes in this game... the lead up to the battles are what takes the main time, getting everyone into position the melee is fast...

Interesting Topic

If we assume the number of units is the same, and not one figure = 100 units or something. Battle would obviously end a little sooner. There is no take out units from the back nor is there likely to be a front, mid, back. Everyone surges forward. Frankly I feel like the undead would have the advantage in real life, as Maro can regularly spawn and heal (doesn't have to roll surges or rely on runes :P). He would need to be taken care of quickly. Things like running into terrain like someone said earlier wouldn't happen because the horses flow together and aren't going to run in such a strict formation.

200 pt game, depending on which route they went (expensive big units, vs many infantry) I'd say you're talking probably an average of 1 minute to kill one tray of units. Depending on unit, sieges would obviously be a little tougher. A bunch of skeletons swinging a sword at a large rock golem would probably not do the damage we see in the game. Assuming things worked the same way though I'd say 1 minute to kill a tray seems fair. You would assume the spear men in mass combat die 1 each 15 seconds or so, same for the other side. 15 seconds gives enough time for a few swings before finding an opening like Vine said. Going against a Cavalry unit, you kill the horse first guy comes down you kill him may take a little longer so 30 seconds per cavalry unit, again depending on how close he gets. Going against someone like Kari or Ardus you're assuming their a better fighter and may be able to last a full minute on their own. This depends on what they're against but if we want to keep it simple assume each hero kills 4 spears or 2 cavalry before they themselves fall in battle. Timing is about right. So you could say he who has more trays wins. Where things really change is how well in combat each hero really would be. How well trained are reanimates vs trained spearmen soldiers. How archers fit in. You have archers raining arrows on spearmen as they fight against skeletons you're going to have quite a few deaths. The last thing is each siege unit. I feel like a rune golem would be hard to kill in real life. Tough to hurt rock. I've seen the movie Tremors so I know a carrion lancer takes about 45-50 min of screen time to kill :P. I'd say the whole battle would probably take 15-20 min. +/- 3-5 min.

57 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

I've seen the movie Tremors so I know a carrion lancer takes about 45-50 min of screen time to kill :P.

YES! You win the Internet, today!

Those darn Graboids. Luckily Bert is there to save the day with his Armory.

It would be useful to look at European historical equivalents to see how much time was required to fight a battle. China did all of this on a much larger scale.

In Roman times battles of up to 30,000 men on each side were know to occur but the norm was 10,000 aside. These battles took a full day to fight with deployment and maneuver taking upwards of 4 hours and the actual sword swinging sometimes taking 6 hours.

Throughout the dark ages without the mechanism of a large state the size of battles shrunk considerably down to 2,000-5,000 men on each side. These battles took about half a day with the sword swinging down to an hour or two before one army broke. Towards the end of the dark ages and the start of the middle ages the battle sizes went back up again to between 5,000-10,000 as states could support larger armies. The Battle of Hastings is reported to have taken all day.

Once we move towards the late middle ages and into the Renascence there are many examples of battles at 10,000 - 15,000, but again these were all fought in a single day. It is only once we get into the enlightenment that we start to see armies move up towards 50,000 and into Napoleonic wars that armies tip over 100,000 and battles last multiple days and that's largely due to the logistical support that was developed.

The limiting factors, food, daylight and men's energy to pursue.

In a lot of accounts of battles there is a real focus on the amount of time that armies take to get into the field from camp. in a number of very famous cases, due to a late deployment, pretty much after 11am, battles were not decisively won as the opponents were able to melt away into the dark. Getting your men up at 4am and into the field by 8am was considered the approach of a professional army, and we all know how that fares when the troops are supplied by multiple feudal lords.

I do historical battles and LARP and can confirm that it varies depending on numbers and when you actually start timing it.

Historical:
Duels: Finished in seconds. You need to ignore the "Hollywood" pitched battles that go on for ages and seem to take you on a journey of an entire castle (or exploding planet in Star Wars) without either fighter becoming fatigued. That rarely happens, if ever and if it does it is done purely for spectacle. These fights are very quick, normally a parry or shield deflect > shield bash > kill shot and its all over. Even faster if non-weapon contact is allowed. You will be surprised how even experienced fighters are laid low when they are kicked in the back of the leg and put sword to neck.

Skirmish (anywhere between 10 - 15 a side) will be over in minutes after the first clash. People fall very quickly despite armor and shields. Situational awareness is key and people suffer from tunnel vision. Just because someone is running at you doesn't mean the kill shot will come from that person, generally it is from your right (unshielded) side. However it does degenerate into a 1 v X eventually and that can drag out the conflict, especially if the victor is feeling vicious.

Battle: - 300 a side. Lasts about an hour. Less if there are archers as people are hesitating to engage. It becomes brutal close quarters, very confusing and you often won't know why you died, simply that you did. Archers will loose off a barrage once every 30 seconds if they have the arrows to do. They could do it faster of course but fatigue sets in and by this point, you are likely hitting your own troops.

Grand Battle - 1000+ a side. This will take the better part of a day and it is an exceptionally drawn out affair. You have all the pomp and ceremony at the beginning as all the regiments arrive and are assigned their formations. Broken units are re-formed, battle plans are discussed (and forgotten by the time the fight starts) and then you have the official start time. Even then, infantry will not likely see physical combat for some time as archers trade exchanges and both sides jock for position.

Now in LARP, where people have multiple wounds and damage types:

Duels: Depends on your level and their level. This could take up to 10 minutes as one of you chip away at the others health pool. If both turtle up and don't attack, it can take so long that eventually you just back away from each other.

Skirmish: Again, 10 - 30 minutes. These can be the bread and butter. If you group are leveled and going PvE, it will be over in less than 10. If its PvP and you both have archers and mages, be prepared for a slog.

Battle: Just over an hour if mages are involved. WAAAAY longer if someone has multiple wounds. I have known an archer to have to hit someone 14 times before he eventually took a knee, then he started regenerating. . .

Grand Battles: Depends on what has been agreed. I've been in one that has taken three days and that even had catapults. Mages make a mess of things (damage and healing) and it eventually just breaks down into a regenarating tar pit until someone, with an enchanted crushing weighted warhammer, a personal support mage covern and complete disregard for others personal safety comes waying in and brings a stop to it ala Sauron in the open scene.

Werebears, WarOrcs, Necromancers, Fyre, Druids and anything else fantasy take about 2 - 3 minutes to kill and that is if you are allowed to drum roll them with double daggers. If not, I hope you have been doing your cardio. .

I'd wager the historical might have more bearing here ?.

1 hour ago, Darthain said:

I'd wager the historical might have more bearing here ?.

Lightning bolt, lightning bolt, lightning bolt! Over in seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/j_ekugPKqFw

I imagine Full plate mail can take sword slashes all day, with just bruising unless a kink is found. But the armour wearer is slow as ****.

Shooting an arrow with accuracy takes a couple extra seconds, and knocking a second arrow takes a good ten seconds.

I recall an exsicise were we shot a target 30 feet away as quickly as possible with someone counting down to simulate being rushed by an armoured opponent, and it took longer then I ever thought to get that second shot off!

2 hours ago, Darthain said:

I'd wager the historical might have more bearing here ?.

Nope. LARP

4 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

I do historical battles and LARP and can confirm that it varies depending on numbers and when you actually start timing it.

How do Mages work in LARP? obviously there is no contact so how do you determine a hit?

Role Models is one of my favorite movies and obviously probably not the best representation or depiction of LARP but it intrigues my curiosity.

1 hour ago, Thornoo1 said:

Lightning bolt, lightning bolt, lightning bolt! Over in seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/j_ekugPKqFw

LMAO this is amazing.

EDIT: Honestly mainly because of that guys super tall outfit/costume thing.

56 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

Nope. LARP

How do Mages work in LARP? obviously there is no contact so how do you determine a hit?

Role Models is one of my favorite movies and obviously probably not the best representation or depiction of LARP but it intrigues my curiosity.

(Sorry for derailing the thread!)

Depends on the game mechanic but . . generally. .

A mage will have a certain amount of "mana" which they are allocated to use per day. It's ALOT and this mana pool is represented by a small deck of cards in some games or by other means such as tokens.

Each time a mage / wizard / fantastical creature wants to caste something, they must pay the mana cost (rip the associated amount of cards for example) and then PERFECTLY and LOUDLY pronounce the spell as well as do the appropriate action. In order for a spell to take effect, both the target/s and/or marshal must of heard it and seen the cost be paid.

If all that is done, it's up to the target to act accordingly. Here are two examples:

You and another player come across a clearing on your travels, a quick look around and you spot a marshal. . first tell tale sign that either A: You are going the wrong way or B: Something is about to go horribly wrong. (Un)Luckily for you, it's B.

As you ready yourselves, another group appears from opposite the forest and enters the clearing, however they are already weapons ready and charging your position.

Whilst your friend charges to meet them head on with sword and board firmly in hand and a war cry in his lungs, one breaks free from the pack and heads straight for you. Thinking fast, you cast your spell:

Breaking two cards clearly in front of you and tossing them to the ground, your arm now outstretched, your voice booms across the clearing:

"By my power I strike you DOWN!" (This is universally known as a strike down spell, all targets in front of you MUST immediately and safely, drop to the ground, lay FLAT AND PRONE, wait 1 second and then get back up).

Having bought yourself some time, now it's time for something different.

However, there are occasions where even magic can't save you.

A friend of mine was support healing and suddenly we heard "LAUNCH!!",(you are not allowed to shout FIRE as it's a safety call) we looked up and the biggest foam boulder every conceived was airing its way to our back line via a catapult. My friend, caught up in the moment and fearing for his fellow comrades, tore six cards and screamed "By the power of the ancients, I rebel that boulder!!"

Now normally, that would rebel ANY opposing spell being cast, naturally, the boulder didn't understand this and splatted him anyway. The Marshalls rolled the boulder off him, laughing hysterically and with a thunderous applause from all watching, the Marshalls ruled that it worked and he didn't die.

He was winded though but he carried on with the biggest smile on his face. Many drinks were had that day.

1 hour ago, Ywingscum said:

I imagine Full plate mail can take sword slashes all day, with just bruising unless a kink is found. But the armour wearer is slow as ****.

Shooting an arrow with accuracy takes a couple extra seconds, and knocking a second arrow takes a good ten seconds.

I recall an exsicise were we shot a target 30 feet away as quickly as possible with someone counting down to simulate being rushed by an armoured opponent, and it took longer then I ever thought to get that second shot off!

It's hard to describe what it's like being charged by an angry regiment of kilt wearing Scotsmen, brandishing two handed claymores and more skin than you care to witness, especially when your only defense is a boot knife and your bow. You may be accurate in isolation/practice but the added pressure to load, knock, ready, aim and loose when bearing witness to that is impossible to comprehend.

Also, full plate CAN turn an arrow if the defender is able to angle their chest or shoulder correctly at the point of impact, even more so if it's a volley (from above). In LARP, this is less likely as the arrow heads are larger than your eye socket (for safety reasons) and any impact outside of a shield is considered a solid hit.