Many, Many Fixes (Secondary Weapon Edition)

By Astech, in X-Wing

Continuing my train of thought recently, I'm now focusing on secondary weapons. We all remember the days when all torpedoes were equally awful, but now some are more equal than others:

Torpedoes:

Advanced Proton Torpedoes: Admittedly, these are fantastic when they trigger. They have 2 problems though: their excessive price (as much as a TLT!) and the very, very hard trigger. Here's the fix.

Advanced proton torpedoes (Torpedo, 6 points, 5 dice, Range 1)
"Attack: Target lock. Spend your target lock and discard this card to perform this attack, even on a target outside your firing arc. You may change up to 3 of your blank results to [focus] results"

As-is, an Autoblaster Cannon is a better use of points than these torpedoes, but allowing a mini-turret of death gives them much-needed flexibility, and a unique torpedo mechanic.

Flechette Torpedoes: Again, these are fine, but the fact that you have to acquire and spend a target lock means that they're quite hard to proc, and that when they do they rarely do damage. Here's the fix.

Change the header to Attack: [Focus]. That's all that's required to bring them up to scratch. It lets them actually work against their targets - high agility, low hull aces.

Seismic Torpedoes: Potentially the least used of the torpedoes, especially in this 2-3 ship meta. Their main problem is that they very rarely do more for you than a focus action, and normally do less. Here's the fix.

Seismic Torpedoes (Torpedo, 2 points)
Action: Discard this card to choose an obstacle at Range 1-2 and inside your primary firing arc. Each ship at Range 1 of the obstacle rolls 2 attack dice and suffers any damage [hits] or critical damage [crit] rolled. Then remove the obstacle.

It's a fairly small buff, but gives you an average of 1 damage for an action that is quite hard to trigger.

Missiles:

Advanced Homing Missiles: They're a cool concept, but when Cruise missiles often wipe out shields and do a crit with duidance chips anyway, and are equally hard to proc, there's no reason to take Adv. Homing missiles. Here's the fix.

Just make them range 1-2. It means that aces have a lot harder time dodging the shot, and you can actually get them off in a game.

Assault Missiles: Soon to be completely obsolete due to Harpoon Missiles, Assault missiles have rarely seen use outside epic play since their conception. Here's the fix.

Assault Missiles (Missile, 4 points, 4 dice, Range 2-3)
"Attack: [target lock] | Discard this card and spend your target lock to perform this attack. If this attack hits, each ship at range 1 of the defender suffers one critical damage"

Now assault missiles are as cheap as Harpoons (which is fair since Harpoons don't require spending the TL), and can do some serious damage to nearby ships. A good FSR2 counter.

Cluster Missiles: Again, a good missile that is just eclipsed by a TLT. I'd fix it just by changing to Attack: [focus], just to give the low-PS ships that want it an easier time of it.

Concussion Missiles: They're basically proton torpedoes, but in missile form. I think they need their own mechanic, so here's the fix.

Concussion Missiles (Missile, 4 points, 4 dice, Range 2-3)
"Attack: [target lock] Discard this card and spend your target lock to perform this attack. After this attack resolved, if the defender does not have any shields, you may draw damage cards until you draw a "pilot" critical hit. Assign that card to the defender."

Now concussion missiles concuss opponents, which I think is thematic. You lose the super-reliable shot, but gain a very strong disruptive ability against a good deal of ships (sorry Imperials).

Ion Pulse Missiles: They have a niche against low agility large base ships, walking them off the board, but they really can't hit their most desired target - High PS, high maneuverability ships. This can be fixed by changing the target lock requirement for a focus requirement.

Cannons:

ARC Caster: Aside from faction bias, the massive potential to damage yourself just as much as the enemy makes them pretty worthless. Here's the fix.

Remove the "not Imperial" restriction. X7s are still going to be better than /Ds. Then modify it to "choose 1 other ship at range 1 of the defender (other than yourself)" to give you a chance.

Autoblaster: The turret does everything better, for 3 points less. This cannon can be fixed by lowering its point cost to 3.

Flechette Cannon: It's bad in a lot of ways, but chief among them is an inability to stack more than one stress on a target. This cannon can be fixed by removing the "if they are not stressed" requirement.

Turrets:

Blaster Turret: It was bad at release and has got steadily worse over time, culminating with the TLT's release. Here's the fix.

Blaster Turret (Turret, 4 points, Range 1-2)
"Attack: [focus] | Perform this attack against 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc)."

Spending the focus was absurd when the slightly more expensive TLT doesn't require it.

Dorsal Turret: It's simply meh, and I've never seen a build where an autoblaster or TLT wouldn't be better. It can be fixed (as much as it can be) by reducing the squad cost to 2 points.

Ion Cannon Turret: The third best turret, currently. It suffers from TLT envy. The fix is to make it a range 1-3 turret (or at the very least 2-3) in order to keep it in line with the TLT.

Synced Turret: It's on-par with blaster turret, and doesn't give you much more than a Dorsal turret. I'd say taking it down to 3 points would fix it.

And bombs, of course, are fine as they are.

Have I missed any of the weaker secondary weapons? Or maybe my fixes are a bit too strong?

You're just trolling us now, aren't you?

Generally good ideas - some of these might upset some people (eg. nera dantels + APT = obsolete, or concussion missiles being too much like Emo Ren), but the only one I had some previous idea about was Flettchette cannons. perhaps they should deal one stress for each damage.

3 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

You're just trolling us now, aren't you?

Only a little bit. ;)

This is way too much work for a pure troll, though.

One fix that you've missed is to add the defender's range bonus to turrets and cannons. That's the nerf that TLT (and your version of Ion) need.

However an Ion Cannon Turret that works at all 3 ranges becomes the best turret so would have to cost more.

6 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

One fix that you've missed is to add the defender's range bonus to turrets and cannons. That's the nerf that TLT (and your version of Ion) need.

However an Ion Cannon Turret that works at all 3 ranges becomes the best turret so would have to cost more.

I like the idea, but it comes more into "general game rules" than secondary weapon fixes, so to speak.

I'm not so sure about Ion Turret though. It still only does 1 damage and 1 ion a turn, so large base ships pretty much don't care about it. Anything with 3 agility doesn't really care (especially with Autothrusters) , and Agi 1-2 ships have always suffered, regardless of its range band.

You seem to be unhappy with almost every upgrade card in this game :D

I have seen your Astromech edition and now you're going on with editing secondary weapons. I am sure there will be more to come.

Well, actually... I think that some cards would have been better as you describe them, as there are actually a few upgrades which NEVER see any play (R3 Astromech?), but most cards are really fine the way they are.

Cards can get overpowered really really quickly and this might result into something like a bunch of extremely cheap ships with Advanced Proton Torps going wild, winning every tournament out there.

48 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

However an Ion Cannon Turret that works at all 3 ranges becomes the best turret so would have to cost more.

We have this, Ion Cannon on YT-2400 with Outrider title, 8 pts total, range 1-3.

1 hour ago, Astech said:

Only a little bit. ;)

This is way too much work for a pure troll, though.

So you’re an impure troll? Ew.

21 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

You seem to be unhappy with almost every upgrade card in this game :D

I have seen your Astromech edition and now you're going on with editing secondary weapons. I am sure there will be more to come.

Well, actually... I think that some cards would have been better as you describe them, as there are actually a few upgrades which NEVER see any play (R3 Astromech?), but most cards are really fine the way they are.

Cards can get overpowered really really quickly and this might result into something like a bunch of extremely cheap ships with Advanced Proton Torps going wild, winning every tournament out there.

I'm not unhappy with them - I've flown most cards casually (pretty much everything that isn't saboteur-bad). However, I'm both incredibly competitive and determined to win creatively. As such, I'm disappointed by the fact that being creative - in and of itself - outside a very narrow range of cards puts me at an innate disadvantage against anyone willing to use a meta list.

The cards that are just "fine" are not good enough for tournament play (most of the time). Cards like Attanni mindlink trump elusiveness any day of the week.

For advanced proton torps specifically, the cheapest possible platform is a Scyk/TIE bomber at 22 points. Neither of those platforms are durable enough for them to be worth the points. Maybe a PTL gamma squad vet with Lightweight frame...

But I do see your point, hence I asked if anyone could spot broken combos. I've tried to preserve the original "idea" of each card as much as I can.

17 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

We have this, Ion Cannon on YT-2400 with Outrider title, 8 pts total, range 1-3.

Ion cannon is significantly worse than HLC in the current meta - more than 4 points worse. If anything, Dash owlud want a Mangler, since limiting him to a single damage every turn means he'll lose guaranteed against Miranda.

8 minutes ago, Astech said:

Ion cannon is significantly worse than HLC in the current meta - more than 4 points worse. If anything, Dash owlud want a Mangler, since limiting him to a single damage every turn means he'll lose guaranteed against Miranda.

Oh I know. I was just pointing out that it was possible. A WSF with an 8 point ion Turret is pretty funny. Even funnier on Dash.

33 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Oh I know. I was just pointing out that it was possible. A WSF with an 8 point ion Turret is pretty funny. Even funnier on Dash.

I personally find Tractor beam Dash to be OP... ;)

I think the simplest way to improve the usefulness of torps is just to simply remove the "spend your target lock" requirement to shoot. So after firing the torpedo, there's modification options left even without focus tokens. This would help low PS ordnance carriers a lot.

4 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

We have this, Ion Cannon on YT-2400 with Outrider title, 8 pts total, range 1-3.

:) however, this is a false comparison. The HLC on the Outrider is significantly better than a TLT too. A mangler cannon turret would also be better, unless it were a lot weaker.

Although I am now going to have to try this out, just for fun :)

Edited by Gilarius
adding wanting to try it.
4 hours ago, Gilarius said:

However an Ion Cannon Turret that works at all 3 ranges becomes the best turret so would have to cost more.

However Ion turrets work really well against Nym and Miranda, countering their super mobility, and capitalizing on their weakness of low agility.

Heavy Ion Cannon Turret (8 pts)

4 red dice

range 2-3

if this attack hits place two Ion tokens on target and defender suffers one damage.

Then cancel all dice results.

7 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

However Ion turrets work really well against Nym and Miranda, countering their super mobility, and capitalizing on their weakness of low agility.

I played a fantastic game against Nymanda last night, where I was flying a Lothal Rebel equipped with Ion Cannon and Lone Wolf Dash. That ion cannon dis sooo much work. It essentially stopped Nym from doing his thing, and prevented Miranda from doing a lot of her better tricks.

10 hours ago, Captain Pellaeon said:

I think the simplest way to improve the usefulness of torps is just to simply remove the "spend your target lock" requirement to shoot. So after firing the torpedo, there's modification options left even without focus tokens. This would help low PS ordnance carriers a lot.

The trouble with that is it's sort ofr a missile niche to not require spending the token - it's pretty much what distinguishes the two categories. Low PS pilots would be helped a lot more by a Deadeye-like card that stops them from having to get a target lock in the first place. As it is, a clever opponent not wanting to get shot by missiles/torpedoes can play the range game and guarantee that you won't get them off.

Advanced Proton Torpedoes just need to be cheaper. The more I think about many balance issues in X-Wing, most of the time the best fix would be a point cost adjustment.

Flechette are probably fine. They'd be sweeter if they had a built-in Deadeye, but eh. They're only 2 points.

Seismic Torpedos are also fine. Their role isn't to do damage, it's to eliminate asteroids. If I were to change anything about them, I'd add the text "In the combat phase, you may skip your attack to perform this action" or "you may perform a free action. If you do, assign a Weapons Disabled token to your ship." There are times I'd probably rather give up an attack than the action used to fire them.

I appreciate the amount of thought you've put into this, but I think you've gone too far with most things. Instead of reigning in the reasonably few 'too good' cards, you're trying to make everything 'too good'. Games would certainly be shorter lol.

Image result for no one will be super gif

Looking forward to Fenn & Kavil's bubble of 6 dice super-modded death with Advanced Proton Torps.

The game was really crying out for more things you could use out of arc at high PS to one-shot opposing ships. Good work!

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Looking forward to Fenn & Kavil's bubble of 6 dice super-modded death with Advanced Proton Torps.

The game was really crying out for more things you could use out of arc at high PS to one-shot opposing ships. Good work!

Fenn currently enjoys being PS-killed by Nym. He's not much of a worry at the moment, and a single extra die (and, indeed, the turret ability) isn't so important on a ship that already fires 5 dice at range 1 and has multiple repositioning options. At Kavil's middling pilot skill, he'd either have to take PTL to get both tokens on the same turn, or hope to get them off on a target that somehow can't keep range on a Y-wing.

Regardless, it's 6 points for a card that's still difficult to use, and is only as effective as before against a jousting list.

Flechette Cannon

Attack 1 ship. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage and it also receives 1 stress token. Then cancel all dice results.

All torps just need a bonus vs large base ships. Add an extra hit result if the target has a large base. It´ d keep them acceptable vs small base ships but put the fear into large base ships. There is no soft counter to large base ships (apart from Ion, ironically - given the OP´ s comment). Torps should be the soft counter to large base ships!

Edited by Larky Bobble