The big big problem about imperial ships is the absolute lack of defensive options to modify dice.

I'll list them here:

- Palpatine. 29 points to say the least.

- lightweight frame: 2 and we're not talking about modification, this is just another (blank) die rollin'.

- evade action : not present in way too many ships that should have it by default. Defender, Tie Adv. Prototype, Tie Silencer, Tie Aggressor.

Let's not throw the poor bombers n' Punishers into this.

-Wired : stress and bombers are not good friends. They already have terrible action economy.

- Lone Wolf : a sneaky reroll IF the dead mea-erm the bomber is all alone on the battlefield.

And that's all folks, at least for what regards EPTs.

Crew upgrades:

Moff Jerjerrod : 2 points to discard another crew just to turn one faceup card down without resolving it. Terrible and overcosted.

Kallus: 2 points against one single ship and only regards one eyeball. Pretty limited.

Ysanne Isard. 4 points and at least one damage to have one freakin' evade since the next turn. Could mix well with EI for some cool start-of-combat-phase shenanigans.

- flight instructor. 4 points of LOLness.

That's it. So few options for a faction that relies mostly on 'naked' green dice.

Rebels have selflessness and lots of tanky ships (DX9 transport where are you?)

Scum ships can do all kind of tricks while still dealing lots of punch.

This is so unfair.

On 10/15/2017 at 4:38 AM, Odanan said:

I was thinking in a TIE/sa title (that fitted both Bombers). Something like this: <snip>

I like the template option idea, however I am against the idea of using missile slots for bombs. I would prefer if they errata Bomb Loadout to be Y-Wing and TIE Bomber Only. Limited. so that you can swap 1 torp slot for a 2nd bomb slot and still have the missile slots for use, including Unguided Rockets, and use the other torp slot for EM. If you change the wording on the new FO bomber to "TIE Bomber Mk2" or similar, it will benefit as well from that change.

19 hours ago, Reiver said:

The problem with the new paradigm is that it doesn't matter whether we'd like to see it - it's up to a movie director over at Disney to decide whether or not there'll be one on screen, and by inference, in any given wave or not.

Bummer, huh?

Sure, but give the striker a bomb slot and tie/SF a crew slot like they should have from the movies, and imps get a whole lot better.

The proper title for this ship is "TIE Advanced Bomber".

Obviously.

On 10/15/2017 at 7:38 AM, Odanan said:

I was thinking in a TIE/sa title (that fitted both Bombers). Something like this:

Yes, you need gimmicks like this to make a bomber at all relevant at bombing, except you also need one that's unique to the FO bomber

Otherwise youll just get Punisher 2, the punishing (of poor imp players looking for cool things to fly)

Basically, you're never going to give a bomber a reason to exist without displacing a previous ship or presenting a unique, ship-defining gimmick upgrade like ASLAM KS (or pilot, see nym).

Shuffling around upgrade slots, stats and dials does not a worthwhile ship make

On 10/15/2017 at 10:03 AM, Boom Owl said:

Anyone else really want to see a First Order Bomber?

If I could kit out a low PS version of this sooo many lists would become instantly competitive....probably broken...but an Imperial can dream!!

Tie F/O Bomber

2 Attack

2 Agility

6 Hull

2 Shields

1 Crew

2 Missiles

2 Bombs

No more Shuttle Title removing all the bombs and missiles. Even just a new Tie Bomber Tile on the existing Bomber with negative cost that just allows you to drop the bomb or the missiles in exchange for the 2x crew would be amazing.

Maybe exclude LWF from working with it given the 8 hp? And probably have something that forces you to choose between bombs and missiles during the place forces step no matter how you kit it out.

Or maybe there will be a Gunboat title that adds 1 crew

That would make me just as happy.

Im not a game designer so I have no idea what would actually be balanced or whatever but I do know it would be awesome to see a stronger imperial small ship crew platform that can still fit with 2 aces.

The key is the crew slot with the option to keep one of the missiles, torps, or bombs.

I like your idea of just giving it a single crew slot with less munitions slots. It would differentiate the FO bomber from the original, and stop it from making the old one obsolete like the T-70 situation. The old bomber would have its double torp/missile slots and be the dedicated assault ship it always was, or double crew with the shuttle title, and the FO could be a hybrid of both. Not as good as either in their dedicated roles, but a good middle ground 'jack of all trades' ship. It seems like that would be a natural progression and an 'FO design update' without destroying a perfectly good existing ship. It also means you can finally put bombardier/weapons engineer crew on an imperial bomber.

I was thinking something along the lines of this; (which kinda matches/adds on what @theBitterFig has suggested.)

Tie F/O Bomber

2 Attack

2 Agility

6 Hull

1 Shield

1 Crew

1 Torpedo

1 Missile

1 Bomb

2 Tech

I think 1 shield is fair as its the same treatment the TIE/fo received. I also think it should be allowed access to lightweight frame, simply because the gunboat will be a 7HP ship with 2 native green dice, or potentially 3 with Vynder.

On 10/15/2017 at 0:44 PM, theBitterFig said:

I might write the name as "F/O Bomber" without the TIE, because of the awkward way that FFG has written their title rules, and the potential overlap with either TIE Bomber or TIE/FO titles.

I like the premise of including the crew baseline in the upgrade bar. I'd go [Elite], Crew, Torpedo, Missile, Bomb, Tech, Tech, and include a "F/O Bomber" only Tech upgrade which can become either a Torpedo, Missile, or Bomb. That'd allow for EM/Torpedo, Unguided Rockets, or Bomblet Generator, but not all at once. Double-slots on munitions could make it hard to fit an Elite upgrade.

As to another Tech upgrade... I love the concept of a card which allows you to pick a Torpedo, Missile, or Bomb for your ship after seeing the enemy list. I'm completely unsure of the best wording for such an upgrade (particularly since it'll need to work with Extra Munitions and Ordnance Silos), but I think it'd need some sort of premium cost, 1 or 2 additional points for the flexibility. I've got a name though: Multi-Warhead Munitions.

I love your idea of a tech allowing an extra slot of your choice, but with only having 1 native slot of each to stop it having both bomblet generator and unguided rockets at the same time. I think that's well balanced.

What about this?

Adaptive Loadout (0pts) - FO Bomber only. - Your upgrade bar gains 1 additional missile or bomb icon.

I also like the Multi-warhead idea, although like you said it would be tricky to word correctly. Maybe something like 'After the place forces step, you may swap an equipped secondary weapon upgrade with another of equal or lesser squad cost". That would prevent an unfair advantage by messing around with total squad costs/initiative etc.

I'd personally really like to see a tech upgrade like;

Fire Control Radar (2pts) - When attacking with a secondary weapon, you may ignore game effects that instruct you to spend a target lock.

It would make the TL discard missiles/torps a bit more potent, and would combo well with targeting synchronizer and/or weapons engineer.

48 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

What about this?

Adaptive Loadout (0pts) - FO Bomber only. - Your upgrade bar gains 1 additional missile or bomb icon.

I also like the Multi-warhead idea, although like you said it would be tricky to word correctly. Maybe something like 'After the place forces step, you may swap an equipped secondary weapon upgrade with another of equal or lesser squad cost". That would prevent an unfair advantage by messing around with total squad costs/initiative etc.

I'd personally really like to see a tech upgrade like;

Fire Control Radar (2pts) - When attacking with a secondary weapon, you may ignore game effects that instruct you to spend a target lock.

It would make the TL discard missiles/torps a bit more potent, and would combo well with targeting synchronizer and/or weapons engineer.

Adaptive Loadout is about right. I'd let it carry a Torpedo, too. If a bomber wants EM and whatever the next hot Torpedo is, I say so be it.

//

The tracking tokens language did have potential issues. There aren't existing upgrades in X-Wing with variable costs, so I didn't have a model. Swap language might work with ordnance tokens from EM. It also occurred to me afterwards that it'd probably be fine to have Multi-Warhead Munitions be a dual-card, one version costing 4, one costing 6, and it could equip to your ship a torpedo/missile/bomb costing up to 3 or up to 5 points.

I do tend to think there ought to be a points cost associated with such an effect. Perhaps the opportunity cost of giving up a Tech slot is large enough, I'm not sure. It might be impossible to balance. Getting a choice of weapon or bomb might be too strong on a dedicated bomber ship (I think about how crazy strong it would be on Miranda, for example, even though she doesn't have the Tech slots), but it'd be trash on a T-70. On an SF, it might be fair at 0 points; the Tech slot is often unused, and there are multiple useful 3-cost missiles.

//

As to Fire Control Radar, with the above language, it'd be amazing with Cluster Missiles: you'd be able to attack, get full rerolls on both attacks, and still have a TL at the end of it (rerolling dice is a game effect which instructs you to spend a target lock ). I'm not sure if it'd allow unlimited rerolls for friendly with Targeting Synchronizer, given "you" issues, like the Cassian Andor or Wingman with Kyle Katarn issues.

It might be wise to specify when instructed to spend a target lock by a secondary weapon. If it is just when the upgrades discard, however the right wording ought to be, I'd also consider including focus tokens, in case a ship can ever have both a Blaster Turret and a tech slot (or Deadeye, or new secondary weapons). And even then, I might want to reduce the points cost. 1 point would probably be fine for an upgrade which mostly only worked once or twice per game, much like Guidance Chips.

Another version would be to keep it at 2 points, add "once per turn," and remove the secondary weapon restriction entirely. It'd become a different form of FCS if you only ever attack with primary weapons, but with a "spend" missile or torpedo, it could either be FCS on a normal ship or Redline without FCS. Poor TIE Punisher. Redline's double TL tricks are fun, but if any ship with a Tech slot could pull them off... sigh.