First the positives...

Ring and skill dice look functional and stylish.
Also the core mechanism is incedibly solid and really excits me.

And now a laundry list on things which holds the game back...

1. Character Advancement

This doesn't look fun at all. Actually it looks like something I would rather not be doing at all.

First thing I don't like the escalating costs for ring and skill advancement. I know the old L5R had is but it was also bad there. If you have starting values from 1 to 3 and escalating costs the numerically best characters will be those with the most extrem starting values.

Also since the values cap out at 5 anyways I honestly do not see the nessaccity for escalating costs. The average cost of advancing a ring is 10.5 and the average cost of advancing a skill is 6. Take those values instead and tweak them to make the progression feel nicer.

Second the advancement tables are terrible. Why is there one for every school? The gegenral advancement table on the character sheet is absolutely enough in my book. To have the available techiques linked up to the school got me so existed because it streamlined schools and techiques and I could develope however I would see fit for my character. But the advancement tables are actively hindering a free and natural progression.

2. Honor, Glory, Status, Ninjo and Giri

Three of them are obsolete, the other two are underdeveloped.

Honor, Glory and Status are essentailly unneeded. There is so much overhead and paper wasted on these three and most of the time these numbers mean nothing. If you just delete all rules regaring these three numbers you essentailly would loos nothing from the experience and end up with a much slimmer game.

Ninjo and Giri have the same critique attached to them, however I want to see these two more developed. Because these two things are the centre of the samurai drama.

The inner struggle between your humanity and your duty. Do they line up? Are they opposed? Are you afraid to do the right thing, because it will kill you?

There is a true gem hidden inside these two words, but currently they do nothing for the game.

3. Martial Arts

Why is this skill split in three? No, I am serious here. Can we have just one hurting people skill? I think the differentiation is unneeded looking at this otherwise very clean and complete skill list.

You already describe subskill options for people who want to have things more detailed. So bring this skill in line with the other skills.

4. Opportunities

I like strife so much more than opportunities. Manly because of one thing: I always know what to do with strife.

What is really missing is a standard use for opportunity. Something like 3 opportinites can be spend for 1 success or make a success explosive.

Absolutly unsure on this one... But anything you can write on your otherwise phenomenal character sheet.

TL;DR: I think we have a potentially great game here, but so much stuff is way to complicated for its own good.

8 minutes ago, Yandia said:

The inner struggle between your humanity and your duty.

This is supposedly an Honor thing. You are shedding humanity as you are going higher on the scale, and paying the cost for it. Or you stay low and keep it simple for your own sake.

I actually struggle to see how Ninjo and Giri are fitting into this. Especially since the more I think about it, the more I feel like the two shouldn't conflict unless specifically made so . At which point it is just drama for the sake of drama, something I can tolerate in a lazily written Brazilian soap opera but not in my Legend of the Five Rings game.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

This is supposedly an Honor thing. You are shedding humanity as you are going higher on the scale, and paying the cost for it. Or you stay low and keep it simple for your own sake.

Right, but honor is more or less just number... Yes there are advantages and disadvantages attached to it, but those are pretty exteme circumstance. I stand by my point you could delete everything about honor from the pdf without loosing out on game experience.

Ninjo and Giri currently do not much and yes I have to agree with your second paragraph, I can become cheap drama for drama sake.

But I think what really helps is to give the extreme end of the scale names. Make them personal and make the struggle about these things. Basiclly write out a core conflict to the character.

4 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

This is supposedly an Honor thing. You are shedding humanity as you are going higher on the scale, and paying the cost for it. Or you stay low and keep it simple for your own sake.

I actually struggle to see how Ninjo and Giri are fitting into this. Especially since the more I think about it, the more I feel like the two shouldn't conflict unless specifically made so . At which point it is just drama for the sake of drama, something I can tolerate in a lazily written Brazilian soap opera but not in my Legend of the Five Rings game.

Actually I find how it is currently fit into honour and glory is horrible. I think for days already how to put it nicely, but I found no way, and now with this post I could not hold back. Giri and Ninjo are such a great improvement to the game, but they get hold back by the ties to the honour and glory that make absolute no sense. They do not serve the game in any way. If I want a narrative game about samurai drama, then the honour should become clear by the actions of the characters regarding their Giri and ninjo, not by some arbitrary link on Ninjo tied to honour. I mean just think for a moment. If someone wants revenge and puts the duty to the lord aside to do so, then this is somehow honourable? If necessary the stats should get crossed, that following the Ninjo should provide glory, since that is the kind of stories people talk about in Rokugan (and waht they talked about in feufal Japan too). While keeping the duty to ones lord should be what gains one Honour. But like I said, having those stats is not really necessary, they are just some sacred cows that someone should lead to the slaughter.

2 minutes ago, Yandia said:

Right, but honor is more or less just number...

You see, this is the thing that needs development. Honor should give complex (and powerful, potentially game-breaking) bonuses so that it would matter . Then you could just look at those shiny new Honor gain/loss tables and pick your poison.

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

You see, this is the thing that needs development. Honor should give complex (and powerful, potentially game-breaking) bonuses so that it would matter . Then you could just look at those shiny new Honor gain/loss tables and pick your poison.

Right, right... I actually think we are actually quite on the same page.

I would not nesseccarly tie the whole thing to a score which goes up and down. I think I would prefer descriptive language at this point (Ninjo and Giri).

But in the end we want both the same an honor system that captures the essence of samurai drama and matters at the gaming table.

I like the addition of ninjo and giri. Yes, in some cases, or perhaps even easily, it can become drama for the sake of drama -- but if we're being honest, that's what all great samurai stories are all about, so I'm kind of looking forward to this in my L5R games.

But I have to agree about the advancement tables. They bring back nightmares about pages upon pages of tables in Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, back before FFG finally took their Wh40k RPG line into a more "open" leveling experience with Black Crusade, Only War, and finally Dark Heresy 2E. I would have much preferred to see something similar for L5R 5E, not in the least because it makes it so much easier and more fun to seamlessly add new things to it. Advancement tables, I think, are just bulky, cluttered, and too "rigid" for what I would like to get out of a game nowadays.

10 minutes ago, Lynata said:

They bring back nightmares about pages upon pages of tables in Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, back before FFG finally took their Wh40k RPG line into a more "open" leveling experience with Black Crusade, Only War, and finally Dark Heresy 2E.

Oh god, I couldn't agree more... Dark Heresy was the reason I didn't touch the 40k RPGs, even though I love the setting.

I hope we can dodge that bullet in L5R.

So regarding Honor, I wonder if a way to make Honor more useful to a PC is to take a note from the prior L5R games, where Honor could be used to avoid being made to do dishonorable things, such as resisting seduction attempts or standing your ground rather than running in fear.

One possible method would be to allow a PC to add their Honor Rank to their Composure, as an honorable samurai would be better able to maintain their "face" during stressful situations. Granted, as things stand that's about a +5 to Composure (most PCs that I've seen tend to hover around the 50's for starting Honor).

Naturally, this would entail removing the additional Advantages/Disadvantages that the system currently offers for high/low Honor scores, making the character less mechanically complicated while still providing a tangible benefit for having a high Honor, and a drawback that's semi-difficult to completely metagame away if a PC has low Honor.

Glory was kind of an odd duck in the L5R games I played, and generally wasn't used for much of anything, so I wouldn't be upset to see it go. Or, instead of the free advantage/disadvantage for high or low ranks, have a PC's Glory score instead provide the player a once per scene reroll of a single die (high Glory) or the GM can force a re-roll of a success/explosion die (low glory) to social-based rolls where the character's reputation is a factor, and that as they go higher or lower on the scale, the more dice can be rerolled (max of 3 dice in any one given roll).

15 hours ago, Yandia said:

1. Character Advancement

This doesn't look fun at all. Actually it looks like something I would rather not be doing at all.

First thing I don't like the escalating costs for ring and skill advancement. I know the old L5R had is but it was also bad there. If you have starting values from 1 to 3 and escalating costs the numerically best characters will be those with the most extrem starting values.

Also since the values cap out at 5 anyways I honestly do not see the nessaccity for escalating costs. The average cost of advancing a ring is 10.5 and the average cost of advancing a skill is 6. Take those values instead and tweak them to make the progression feel nicer.

Second the advancement tables are terrible. Why is there one for every school? The gegenral advancement table on the character sheet is absolutely enough in my book. To have the available techiques linked up to the school got me so existed because it streamlined schools and techiques and I could develope however I would see fit for my character. But the advancement tables are actively hindering a free and natural progression.

2. Honor, Glory, Status, Ninjo and Giri

Three of them are obsolete, the other two are underdeveloped.

Honor, Glory and Status are essentailly unneeded. There is so much overhead and paper wasted on these three and most of the time these numbers mean nothing. If you just delete all rules regaring these three numbers you essentailly would loos nothing from the experience and end up with a much slimmer game.

Ninjo and Giri have the same critique attached to them, however I want to see these two more developed. Because these two things are the centre of the samurai drama.

The inner struggle between your humanity and your duty. Do they line up? Are they opposed? Are you afraid to do the right thing, because it will kill you?

There is a true gem hidden inside these two words, but currently they do nothing for the game.

3. Martial Arts

Why is this skill split in three? No, I am serious here. Can we have just one hurting people skill? I think the differentiation is unneeded looking at this otherwise very clean and complete skill list.

You already describe subskill options for people who want to have things more detailed. So bring this skill in line with the other skills.

4. Opportunities

I like strife so much more than opportunities. Manly because of one thing: I always know what to do with strife.

What is really missing is a standard use for opportunity. Something like 3 opportinites can be spend for 1 success or make a success explosive.

Absolutly unsure on this one... But anything you can write on your otherwise phenomenal character sheet.

TL;DR: I think we have a potentially great game here, but so much stuff is way to complicated for its own good.

I agree with Point # 1 about escalating costs and the incongruity between character creation and character advancement.

I actually sonr even even fully understand the advancement tables. School rank shouldn’t be that complicated.

Perhaps its my adherence to the old systems but I feel like Honor/glory/status are essential, because these things are so vital to samurai culture as depicted in this setting. What I wish is that there were (dis)advantages to manipulate your ranks in those areas. In 4E you could start at a pretty high status if you wanted too.

I too like Giri vs Ninjo.

Since they’ve qualified the 20 Questions it’d be nice if they would make something more concrete about your lord. Like “your lord is a jerk, you get + honor for putting up with him. Or your lord is a wimp, you get + sincerity for covering for him.” Or whatever. Get the lord onto the character sheet more.

There alreadybare standard uses for opportunity. On p. 18.

17 hours ago, Yandia said:

First thing I don't like the escalating costs for ring and skill advancement. I know the old L5R had is but it was also bad there. If you have starting values from 1 to 3 and escalating costs the numerically best characters will be those with the most extrem starting values.

Escalating costs are pretty much necessary so that characters do not dump points into a limited number of skills/rings and the starting differences aren't that bad.

The difference between the the 3 possible arrays is actually fairly minor with 3 3 1 1 1 only being 6 XP ahead of 2 2 2 2 1 with 3 2 2 1 1 being in the exact middle at +/-3.

2 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Escalating costs are pretty much necessary so that characters do not dump points into a limited number of skills/rings and the starting differences aren't that bad.

The difference between the the 3 possible arrays is actually fairly minor with 3 3 1 1 1 only being 6 XP ahead of 2 2 2 2 1 with 3 2 2 1 1 being in the exact middle at +/-3.

The problem is that escalating cost don´t stop the behavior of people putting their xp into limited stats and skills as players buy what they want with their xp. So if their Idea is to actually buy only a limited number of skills and rings they will do it.
So the only thing it does is to draw it out and let them wait longer untiil they can.Which in turn leads to players having unecassarily drawn out progression because they need to wait longer to buy what they want which has a high chance
to affect their gamig expirience in a negative way.
Therefore the escalating cost is not preventing what you want to prevent and the game is probably better off since it does not add anything thats enhances the gaming expirience to the game.

4 hours ago, AndyDay303 said:

Perhaps its my adherence to the old systems but I feel like Honor/glory/status are essential, because these things are so vital to samurai culture as depicted in this setting. What I wish is that there were (dis)advantages to manipulate your ranks in those areas. In 4E you could start at a pretty high status if you wanted too.

Thing is that honor, glory and status where never good stats in any game.

Honor only had impact on the game through the honor roll and some rare schools like the Matsu. But for the wider array of characters had no mechanical impact on the game what so ever.
Glory never had any mechanical effect and was just there to look as a meaningless number grow.
Status had a mechanical effect that was so broken, as it allowed players to speak over others if they had enough of it, that from my exp it was hardly increased at all. This in turn, sicne status
had the rule of the difference of 2, most chars could forget ever doing anything that included status 3 or higher personalities because they could just ignore you or even worse they could just command
you to do something and you had to do it.

So from my expirience none of them was essential to the game as they where either ignored or had no effect and therefore they where completly non essential to the large majority of games I played.
And before I see another Status, you need it to play but no one will give it to you, desaster I rather like to remove them all as they hardly add any fun aspect to the game.

4 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Escalating costs are pretty much necessary so that characters do not dump points into a limited number of skills/rings and the starting differences aren't that bad.

The difference between the the 3 possible arrays is actually fairly minor with 3 3 1 1 1 only being 6 XP ahead of 2 2 2 2 1 with 3 2 2 1 1 being in the exact middle at +/-3.

Since you need 16 XP to get your first rank up I would say 6 XP is rather significant. It is the equivalent of 1 ring increase from level 1 to 2. That is a proper game advantage right there.

I also still have to see, how overspecilistion leeds to a proper ingame advantage. Yes you rock in this one specific case but you are subpar in 80% of all other encounter.

6 hours ago, AndyDay303 said:

There alreadybare standard uses for opportunity. On p. 18.

Yes good point... I know there are a metric ton of tables in the book, providing ideas how to spend opportunities. The most universal one is helping anouther player if you fail.

This is honestly a bit underwheling and leads to weird behaviour. I mean if you want to do diplomacy usually want the party face going first. But with this mechanic it is actually much more helpful to have the guy which is worst in diplomacy going first so he can provide assistence to the guy after. Going slowly up the competence scale and ending up with party face who than hopefully beats the TN.

What I mean is a general tangable advantage helping out the player... Perhaps regenerating strife or something along the line.

I think with the XP costs, given that in order to advance in one's school you need to spend XP in specific ways (such as a Kakita Duelist needing to buy ranks in Martial Skills as well as Striking as Air kata and a number of non-combat skills in order to reach Rank 2), I think they could probably do away with the escalating costs for Rings and Skills, or at least cut back on the escalating cost. I do still think there should be an escalating cost, but maybe drop the current values by 1 rather than waiving them altogether?

Ring dice aren't nearly as helpful to a PC's chances of success as Skill dice, and while Ring dice are an easy 'wild card' to allow a PC to advance in their school, too much focus there means the PC will wind up becoming more of a generalist who can likely accomplish most TN3 or lower tasks no matter what Ring they use, as opposed to being a specialist that a PC who invested their XP into skills and techniques would be, who can probably do more with their dice results (especially Opportunities) as well as being able to succeed on higher TN tasks.

To me, escalating costs just seems like a "natural" part of progression. I'm not sure if it is mostly because I am used to it from other games, but I think it also makes sense in that the better you want to get at something, the harder it gets and the more time you need to invest.

I'm not sure if this mechanic truly works to counter minmaxers ... I can see it function as an incentive/disincentive, but as has been said before, the real culprits may not care and end up with "one trick pony" characters that are even more broken. But I believe escalating costs are instead meant for normal players to help their characters grow more distinguished from one another without growing too far apart when it comes to general capabilities. The more XP they get, the more they'll specialize in specific areas, but the higher cost will subconsciously incentivize them not to fall into the minmaxing trap in the first place. "Well, I could push my martial arts even more, but considering the high cost I guess I can put a few into etiquette to not stick out like a sore thumb in ceremonies."

1 hour ago, Lynata said:

But I believe escalating costs are instead meant for normal players to help their characters grow more distinguished from one another without growing too far apart when it comes to general capabilities.

Actually I think that is exactly the point what escalating costs bring to the table.

I also wouldn't mind getting rid of the skill and ring increases from clans, families and schools and having a certain amount of XP at the start to build a character.

Escalating costs in itself are not a bad thing, but in the past they created a lot of problems in L5R without much gain.

And haveing two system with mixed progression systems. Like character creation and XP costs. Those systems will always favor the most extreme starting builds. Since it is more expensive to grow more extreme than to midigate the flaws you started out with.

1 hour ago, Yandia said:

I also wouldn't mind getting rid of the skill and ring increases from clans, families and schools and having a certain amount of XP at the start to build a character.

I kind of like the skill/ring increases as they make sense as a framework for things a character from these institutions ought to know -- but I also think it should not result in "clones". I think I'd like a hybrid system where you have clans/families/schools start you off with a set of things you may expect from characters with the respective origin, but also give you a couple XP to represent individual interests.

Like, it's a bit weird how everyone can take Advantages to represent an interest in a certain hobby, but you have no way to actually take the accompanying Skill unless you learned it as part of your dojo pack, which in the beta isn't even an option for some clans. Considering Rokugan is a world where every samurai, even warriors, are expected to show appreciation of at least one or two arts, it ends up undermining the setting a little.

40 minutes ago, Lynata said:

I kind of like the skill/ring increases as they make sense as a framework for things a character from these institutions ought to know -- but I also think it should not result in "clones".

The thing it will most likely result in are characters that stack the same ring to the maximum allowed number of 3. So we see things like Scorpion shosuro in the bayushi manipulator school because it stacks air and since you exceed the starting stat at this point you get a free point of stats that you can spend on any ring, which probably will be fire as the bayushi also raises fire to 3. So you get 2 rings at max when you start since 3 is so much better than a 2. For example with 3 in ring and 1 in skill you get 2 oppotunities prette reliably So 3 is the sweet spot to start. That ofcourse also works with the Bayushi family. The problem here is that the other families become a rather weak choice in these cases.
Also you have 3 at 1 but getting a ring to 2 is less expensive than getting it to 3 so the more 3s you have at the start the better.
So I am not sure if you concider that clones or not but thats what we probably get as the most start characters with the current cost system.

I agree - Glory and Honor could be completely dumped and few people would notice. Honor isn't really a "stat" the way rings and skills are, it basically just tracks player behavior. Glory has always been a bit of a misnomer as we juggle local / national glory, fame, infamy, ect. I don't know if anyone who used the stat was actually satisfied with it anyway.

The opposition of Giri and Ninjo is poorly defined in the book too. The way the book describes Giri and Ninjo doesn't work, and won't work for many stories unless it is done properly.

Giri is an obligation. The connotation is important. This is something that should be taxing on you, something you do because you must - not because you want to. It may or may not have to do with your lord or occupation. It may be a family obligation, or even a social one. This is a burden your character works to keep in addition to their actual job, serving their lord, ect. This is what you sacrifice yourself to do. It may be a specific goal like avenging your father, or it may be more continual like paying bills for your distant family.

Ninjo is your personal connection to others. When you see peasants suffering, or a criminal getting away, this is the part of you that hurts for them. Where Giri is your character's Duty, Ninjo is your character's Compassion. Who do you sympathize with? Do you feel pity for peasants and the lower caste? Do you care for the blind or elderly? Do you feel criminals are unduly persecuted? Basically what part of life do you see as continually unjust, where you might act against the system if you could.

These aren't scores, but more just motivations. Their use should be to give your GM material to build a story that is more fitting for how you see your character acting out.

If you have a Giri of an elderly family member who is 100% dependent on you, then as your GM I know that receiving bills and finding ways to earn this extra money are great baits and rewards to pull you along for any story I want to tell. Maybe I get you to guard the caravan because you have a few weeks free from service to your lord, and the pay is good. Maybe you travel to the mountains because you receive a letter that there is a herb they need, and you can't even buy it... but you must travel to get it.

Similarly if your Ninjo is to feel pity for the wives who are sold to pay their husband's debts, I can play up an NPC as a victim to draw you into the intrigue in the city. You then find out she is the wife to an indebted samurai lord who is taxing the city dry to make up for his own gambling problems. Now your character is taking leads from her, tracking down criminals and corrupt officials perhaps collecting cash bribes, or maybe blackmailing for favors until you can gain her release.

None of these need a score because a player is basically telling you "this is the type of story I want to play" and then you can take the story you want to write, and put these in.

3 hours ago, Teveshszat said:

The thing it will most likely result in are characters that stack the same ring to the maximum allowed number of 3.

Well, open "pointbuy" systems, especially those that do not have an escalating cost, are arguably even more susceptible to minmaxing, as they (a) do not require the player to work around existing limitations and (b) do not punish them by requiring a higher cost for pouring all their resources into a single stat.

Minmaxing is something you cannot prevent if a player is truly committed to it. You can only disincentivize it (as the current rule does), but in the end it is up to the players to agree on what sort of game they want to have.

15 hours ago, Yandia said:

Since you need 16 XP to get your first rank up I would say 6 XP is rather significant. It is the equivalent of 1 ring increase from level 1 to 2. That is a proper game advantage right there.

I also still have to see, how overspecilistion leeds to a proper ingame advantage. Yes you rock in this one specific case but you are subpar in 80% of all other encounter.

Yes good point... I know there are a metric ton of tables in the book, providing ideas how to spend opportunities. The most universal one is helping anouther player if you fail.

This is honestly a bit underwheling and leads to weird behaviour. I mean if you want to do diplomacy usually want the party face going first. But with this mechanic it is actually much more helpful to have the guy which is worst in diplomacy going first so he can provide assistence to the guy after. Going slowly up the competence scale and ending up with party face who than hopefully beats the TN.

What I mean is a general tangable advantage helping out the player... Perhaps regenerating strife or something along the line.

Using Water ring, you can regenerate strife with opportunity... it seems like the game already has a lot of what you’re looking for.

“...usually want the party face going first.” Yes, that is indeed how 99% of RPGs work. Why does this one have to be the same?

It it is very common in many types of fiction for leaders, ambassadors and other spokesmen to have an agent speak on their behalf, only for them to step in at an opportune moment. Not to say that this should necessarily be the norm, but it is a thing.

Furthermore, why should the party face get to make all the rolls and have all the fun? This system gives other characters a way to contribute that is more interesting than loaning a die by giving assistance.

I think a lot of folks on this forum stepping out of their own expectations and look at the rules from a more open perspective. Though I suspect FFG is learning that the general audience doesn’t want something that is REALLY different, they just want something that is a tiny bit different.

59 minutes ago, AndyDay303 said:

Using Water ring, you can regenerate strife with opportunity... it seems like the game already has a lot of what you’re looking for.

“...usually want the party face going first.” Yes, that is indeed how 99% of RPGs work. Why does this one have to be the same?

It it is very common in many types of fiction for leaders, ambassadors and other spokesmen to have an agent speak on their behalf, only for them to step in at an opportune moment. Not to say that this should necessarily be the norm, but it is a thing.

Furthermore, why should the party face get to make all the rolls and have all the fun? This system gives other characters a way to contribute that is more interesting than loaning a die by giving assistance.

I think a lot of folks on this forum stepping out of their own expectations and look at the rules from a more open perspective. Though I suspect FFG is learning that the general audience doesn’t want something that is REALLY different, they just want something that is a tiny bit different.

What takes me off guard in this RPG Beta more than anything is that so many of what I would consider "core" or "essential" mechanics are relegated to side bars of "optional opportunities" or "example opportunities" or worse - effects of a kata. I was chatting with my friend about this one a lot. We finally had our first play session using the beta Saturday, and we returned with a lot of answers, and questions, mostly "did I do this right?"

I don't think FFG should change this - after going through answers to our questions, and the book sections more I think I prefer it this way. What I think the game needs is just a better composition. Things like "striking as water" to bypass armor, or "striking as earth" to fight defensively really make sense and work well! I just think the concept of a technique and how they relate to the mechanics should be taught in a different form. Clarity is the only issue with this system. A side bar that works backwards might be nice too - listing the most common desired effects in game (bypassing armor, aimed strike, ect) could be displayed pointing a player to the desired effect. I'm currently putting a bit of a "character concept cheat sheet" together where a player can look at these types of options so they have a more firm direction of their character. Reading every kata, especially if you're reading every single kata together, makes it hard to properly process some of this.

And heck - it might not even be clarity as this is a new source book, and I'm still in the beginning steps of experiencing the system. As I've learned and played my initial fears of an overly complex combat system, and blank sided dice have largely subsided. Now I just need to make sure I don't overlook anything as I guide my players through this (one of them is actively participating in the beta with me, but others are simply being players in my game, and I will be teaching them the rules as I would to any other game as we go). You certainly need to know more as a GM to run this game than you do for other games I've played.

5 hours ago, Lynata said:

Well, open "pointbuy" systems, especially those that do not have an escalating cost, are arguably even more susceptible to minmaxing, as they (a) do not require the player to work around existing limitations and (b) do not punish them by requiring a higher cost for pouring all their resources into a single stat.

Minmaxing is something you cannot prevent if a player is truly committed to it. You can only disincentivize it (as the current rule does), but in the end it is up to the players to agree on what sort of game they want to have.

ah you missunderstand me I don´t want to prevent it. What I say is yes you can´t prevent it so why hinder it if the still do it independent of what you put in their way. The only people that get problems with rules to hinder minmaxer are the normal players.
I have no problem with MInmaxers as they mosty are not Onetrick ponies and in the given system a on trick pony probably does not get very far depending on the DM. So I see a reason for escalating cost a because it does not hit the people you want to hi
and b because I think no playstyle should have a disadvanateg when wanting to play a given game, yes that includes minmaxers.

9 hours ago, Teveshszat said:

ah you missunderstand me I don´t want to prevent it.

Ah! My apologies.

As to the "why", I believe that you cannot write a game for every type of player and please everyone; there will always be a focus on a certain playstyle -- and with L5R, due to the setting's emphasis on story and samurai drama, I firmly believe this focus to lie with well-rounded characters, where things like Disadvantages are not worked around as a nuisance, but rather form an integral part of the dramatis personae, driving the game not only mechanically but also narratively.

Why don't you think escalating costs hit the right people? Are there even "right people"? I think they make sense to have for everyone, as a guideline of sorts softly pushing the players onto a more balanced, realistic path, and steering them away from the pitfalls of alluring minmaxing. And for those that still want to minmax, at least they won't be able to do it quite as excessively.

Perhaps our experiences differ, but whenever I had players focus on the mechanical side of the game, it always came at a cost, such as not taking skills that would otherwise be expected of their character -- not to mention that their mechanical advantage allows them to outshine other players who opted for a more representative build, thus indirectly punishing them for building balanced characters. I think this has a negative effect on enjoyment of the game. Ideally , groups should not mix -- either everyone min-maxes, or no-one does. And if everyone wants to compete for the most efficient build, you can just work around escalating costs by awarding more XP.

5 minutes ago, Lynata said:

Why don't you think escalating costs hit the right people? Are there even "right people"? I think they make sense to have for everyone, as a guideline of sorts softly pushing the players onto a more balanced, realistic path, and steering them away from the pitfalls of alluring minmaxing. And for those that still want to minmax, at least they won't be able to do it quite as excessively.

The questions I ask myself when I think about who is probably efffected by it and what does it want to achieve. Now if you are right and it is there to discourage min maxers it fails because min maxing wil still occour. It even is the far more reasonable way to go with escalating costs as getting lower rings to a acceptable lvl is easier than getting mid tier rings to a high level.
So it only hit the players that are not going for the min max at the start as the yhave to pay significantly more xp than the guys who did the min max to get to the same level they are at, as the yhave to buy the high rings.
Thats why I think it does not hit the right pepole because the normal playing people are not the right ones if the goal is to prevent min maxing.

10 minutes ago, Lynata said:

Perhaps our experiences differ, but whenever I had players focus on the mechanical side of the game, it always came at a cost, such as not taking skills that would otherwise be expected of their character -- not to mention that their mechanical advantage allows them to outshine other players who opted for a more representative build, thus indirectly punishing them for building balanced characters. I think this has a negative effect on enjoyment of the game. Ideally , groups should not mix -- either everyone min-maxes, or no-one does. And if everyone wants to compete for the most efficient build, you can just work around escalating costs by awarding more XP.

To be fair I don´t really see any need that some skills are expected of a character. Yes some might be but I probably will not expect a courtier skill from a bushi. The skills you can expect from a character are allways tied to his role in the game and what focus he has. Anything else simpoly can´t be expected from the character.
Also if take care to build the characters together witht he group it is not difficult to a) get the mechanical good players help and b) make sure that each character takes a different focus. This prevents the outshine problem and is a good way to get more fun out of it.
It also enables you to actually get mixed groups as a well rounded character does not have to be mechanically inefficient.
Yes you can work arround escalating xpbut the point of the beta is to actually fix these things in advance so we later don´t have to work arround them.