20 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

Add a large or medium ship. Then delete it and replace it with more bombers and a Yavaris Nebulon.

The high-activation, low bid fleets were overpowered but at least you could punish them with smart tactics and objective choices. The bomber fleets are genuinely out of hand. A smart first buy is no longer around which ships you should get first, the answer is always now "get your squadron packs and whatever ships let them activate best."

Your first comment is less than useless. If it was humor, you missed the mark.

I also fundamentally don’t see bombers as the overpowered monsters you do. Running 2-3 large/medium ships allows me to usually take out any carrier in a turn. Maybe 2. Suddenly, that super bomber screen isn’t so great. Either side has to bring 30-45 points in Relay to activate enough bombers to matter. If they dump that much into stuff that doesn’t bomb, then I’m less worried.

Let me expand on that: I ran a Yavaris/Defiance fleet with heavy bombers for a bit and to a store championship. You know, literally the exact thing your comment suggested. The entire time I played it, the only thing that beat it was a ship heavy Ackbar gunlne that chopped Yavaris off at the knees before it did anything.

Another local guy started playing that same fleet after seeing it at a different store championship. I got a lot of experience against it and learned how to play against it. It’s a brutal fleet to face the first time you face it, but it has serious weak spots.

So so not to be rude, but your entire post was pretty useless to me. I don’t like escalating things on these forums (or even chancing escalating), but something about your post struck a nerve.

21 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

Add a large or medium ship. Then delete it and replace it with more bombers and a Yavaris Nebulon.

The high-activation, low bid fleets were overpowered but at least you could punish them with smart tactics and objective choices. The bomber fleets are genuinely out of hand. A smart first buy is no longer around which ships you should get first, the answer is always now "get your squadron packs and whatever ships let them activate best."

I laughed so hard!

So much anger... it's kind of true (if a little exaggerated) though, which makes it even more funny

While on the topic: the answer is always Yavaris (maybe except if you want to run a swarm and do AF+Admo, maybe). Then probably an assault frigate. And lets do 4 flotillas, bc Yavaris with 6 activations is just much more evil than 5. Squad mix is debatable, but should include at least 2 Bees (or possible Scurrgs) and Gold Squdaron.

My suggestion to beat MC30s: Rogue squads. If you chase them with 2 Rogues, you can kill them pretty easy so long as you get 1 or 2 good attacks from a ship. Often the MC30 will dive in, double arc, and then bug out, which makes them difficult to deal with. Nail it with an XI7 shot, then unleash your squads. Firesprays and Decimators for Imps. I killed an MC30 with 2 Decimators and Maarek with 2 rounds of attacking. YT-2400 and Lancers for Rebels. These squadsa re expensive, but can complement the squads you bring already while also dropping the command value needed to run your squads.

My suggestion to beat Glads: Bring a bigger ship, or go first. Taking down a Glad is fairly simple. Anything larger than it should be able to do it, but the problem is getting enough dice on it before it gets in close range. Anything with Acc generation is excellent since Glads cannot naturally take ECM. Stack XI7, and now you can lock Brace or Evade, which really pushes damage in. TRC90 + Home One + Ackbar is ridiculous. Honestly, any Ackbar80 build is very good against Glads because you can force them into your side arc at long range, and take away the inefficiency of the red dice by getting more. Squads can be effective, but I feel a Glad or Demo is more likely to kill the carrier first. Again, Rogue squads work wonders.

Beating Demo is tricky, but I tend to bait my opponent into attacking one of my ships. Having more activations, whether naturally or by killing ships, works very well. First player is also good, but mainly because you deny last/first triple taps. If I were to suggest a specific ship, I'd say Defiance Ackbar80 or an ISD II, both ships with the works. XI7 100% with LS.

I've rarely killed Admo because it is run with Mothma, so I don't have many suggestions. It can take way more damage than it should. Rams are crippling to an MC30, but with RBD is can heal. If you try to kill it, you need to use like half of your fleet with squad support. Interestingly, Admo + MM does not suffer from multiple small attacks because it can reroll your dice or discard tokens to negate dice, which makes it really hard to deal any meaningful damage in the short time you are in range. And Lando can wreck any large attack you have as well. It's just really hard to do.

9 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

My suggestion to beat MC30s: Rogue squads. If you chase them with 2 Rogues, you can kill them pretty easy so long as you get 1 or 2 good attacks from a ship. Often the MC30 will dive in, double arc, and then bug out, which makes them difficult to deal with. Nail it with an XI7 shot, then unleash your squads. Firesprays and Decimators for Imps. I killed an MC30 with 2 Decimators and Maarek with 2 rounds of attacking. YT-2400 and Lancers for Rebels. These squadsa re expensive, but can complement the squads you bring already while also dropping the command value needed to run your squads.

I suggested something similar to a new Imperial player recently. He’s been running light squads in his builds and would have room for a decimator. He had been Looking at it as a lackluster anti-squadron Rogue. I pointed out how good a decimator that is held back can be for hunting down injured ships or small ships.

9 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I suggested something similar to a new Imperial player recently. He’s been running light squads in his builds and would have room for a decimator. He had been Looking at it as a lackluster anti-squadron Rogue. I pointed out how good a decimator that is held back can be for hunting down injured ships or small ships.

I view the Decimator as a variant of the Gozanti. For 1 point less, you get a squad with more hull and equalish damage output against ships, as well as total freedom of movement. So if you have a Gozanti that isn't doing much, grab a Decimator. Run it with Valen and you got an 8 hull shield with counter. I've taken down MC30s, MC80s, ISDs, flots, and other squads with Decimators so I do think they are over looked. It just sucks when you roll 0 damage against a ship, but then you can you drop 3 damage on an MC30 and strip the shields.

I totally support more people playing Decimators. Spread the word!

On 10/16/2017 at 5:30 AM, Church14 said:

Your first comment is less than useless. If it was humor, you missed the mark.

I also fundamentally don’t see bombers as the overpowered monsters you do. Running 2-3 large/medium ships allows me to usually take out any carrier in a turn. Maybe 2. Suddenly, that super bomber screen isn’t so great. Either side has to bring 30-45 points in Relay to activate enough bombers to matter. If they dump that much into stuff that doesn’t bomb, then I’m less worried.

Let me expand on that: I ran a Yavaris/Defiance fleet with heavy bombers for a bit and to a store championship. You know, literally the exact thing your comment suggested. The entire time I played it, the only thing that beat it was a ship heavy Ackbar gunlne that chopped Yavaris off at the knees before it did anything.

Another local guy started playing that same fleet after seeing it at a different store championship. I got a lot of experience against it and learned how to play against it. It’s a brutal fleet to face the first time you face it, but it has serious weak spots.

So so not to be rude, but your entire post was pretty useless to me. I don’t like escalating things on these forums (or even chancing escalating), but something about your post struck a nerve.

Ah, there's your issue.

Drop the Defiance. Spend more on bombers and activations.

You think i’m joking. Nothing could be further from the truth. Even a cursory examination shows that bomber heavy fleets are still dominating the American and international meta with or without large ships, to the point of making nearly every ship class nearly irrelevant outside of its ability to support squadron superiority.

There is only one major "large only" list that has done well recently, and that is the double ISD1 supercarrier build that came in second place at GenCon. The problem with that list is that if you can destroy either carrier quickly, it becomes functionally useless against heavy ship and heavy squadron lists.

2 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

Ah, there's your issue.

Drop the Defiance. Spend more on bombers and activations.

You think i’m joking. Nothing could be further from the truth. Even a cursory examination shows that bomber heavy fleets are still dominating the American and international meta with or without large ships, to the point of making nearly every ship class nearly irrelevant outside of its ability to support squadron superiority.

There is only one major "large only" list that has done well recently, and that is the double ISD1 supercarrier build that came in second place at GenCon. The problem with that list is that if you can destroy either carrier quickly, it becomes functionally useless against heavy ship and heavy squadron lists.

I didn't think you were kidding, I think you are wrong. My response was dead serious. Maybe anecdotal, but serious.

In 2017, from what I can find:

-Spanish nationals top 2 was a Demsu vs MC30 msu. Both had strong anti squadron squadron screens.

-French nationals top 2 was an Ackbar MC80 + CR90 swarm and 5 ship MC30 swarm neither had any squadrons

-First at U.K. Expo was DemSU with full squads and about half bombers. 2nd was ISD msu with bomber screen

-Gencon 1st was a 3 ship list with 1 bomber. 2nd was 2 ISD

So... one of the four was won by bombers. All had high activation count winners save Gencon. Your point about ships being irrelevant is contradicted by the data you told me to look at.

I could look at more, but I didn't feel like digging for that long

Im also not trying to run a double MC80 with nothing else. There is a flotilla in there too. I get too much out of having 3 activations over 2, but feel I get almost nothing going to 4.

i also realize I'm liberal with the use of the term MSU. To me, 5 ships or more is MSU

MC-30s ignore the squadron aspect of the game completely. They can easily be taken down by a handful of bombers.

GSD II doesn't play the squadron game much but they do have good AS value.

48 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

MC-30s ignore the squadron aspect of the game completely.

True dat.

48 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

They can easily be taken down by a handful of bombers.

Eeeeeeeeeeh... Depends.

7 hours ago, Marinealver said:

They can easily be taken down by a handful of bombers.

4 layer defenses:

-Mothma

-Admo

-Advanced Projectors

-Comms Net repair tokens

The bomber fleet doesn't stand a chance.

Also forgot Tycho

14 hours ago, Church14 said:

I didn't think you were kidding, I think you are wrong. My response was dead serious. Maybe anecdotal, but serious.

In 2017, from what I can find:

-Spanish nationals top 2 was a Demsu vs MC30 msu. Both had strong anti squadron squadron screens.

-French nationals top 2 was an Ackbar MC80 + CR90 swarm and 5 ship MC30 swarm neither had any squadrons

-First at U.K. Expo was DemSU with full squads and about half bombers. 2nd was ISD msu with bomber screen

-Gencon 1st was a 3 ship list with 1 bomber. 2nd was 2 ISD

So... one of the four was won by bombers. All had high activation count winners save Gencon. Your point about ships being irrelevant is contradicted by the data you told me to look at.

I could look at more, but I didn't feel like digging for that long

Im also not trying to run a double MC80 with nothing else. There is a flotilla in there too. I get too much out of having 3 activations over 2, but feel I get almost nothing going to 4.

i also realize I'm liberal with the use of the term MSU. To me, 5 ships or more is MSU

Is there a thread that posts these results? This is the first I am hearing about Spanish and French Nationals. I vaguely remember the UK Nationals.

That would be a good idea for a thread. Posting all of the Nationals level and up top 4/8 so we can have it archived. I've always been interested in the difference between NA and Euro meta.

16 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Is there a thread that posts these results? This is the first I am hearing about Spanish and French Nationals. I vaguely remember the UK Nationals.

That would be a good idea for a thread. Posting all of the Nationals level and up top 4/8 so we can have it archived. I've always been interested in the difference between NA and Euro meta.

I dug throughthe battle reports subforum and found those. I searched for the Gencon results because I remember plenty of threads narrating it.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

Is there a thread that posts these results? This is the first I am hearing about Spanish and French Nationals. I vaguely remember the UK Nationals.

That would be a good idea for a thread. Posting all of the Nationals level and up top 4/8 so we can have it archived. I've always been interested in the difference between NA and Euro meta.

Didn't @Tokra just do this? I know I just saw this very thread, but now I can't seem to find it...

5 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Didn't @Tokra just do this? I know I just saw this very thread, but now I can't seem to find it...

Yes, i did a list. Its over here.

2 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Didn't @Tokra just do this? I know I just saw this very thread, but now I can't seem to find it...

Cheers, I saw Church's original post and couldnt be bothered at the time linking it up.