Following on from my previous thread, giving a back-of-the-envelope fix for every ship below the power curve and asking why FFG can't do the same with paid developers working full time. Now I'm looking at the game's Astromechs (not salvaged though), and giving them what they deserve:

That's it for the least used (and totally unused) astromechs. I'll ask again, if I can make okay fixes in an hour or so, then why can't FFG do the same in a year?

Maybe because you're just proving it takes longer than an hour to come up with good fixes?

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Maybe because you're just proving it takes longer than an hour to come up with good fixes?

I can't see anything innately broken with them - no OP combos or NPEs. Every fix boosts the strength of each card by a good deal. You'll notice I called my fixes "okay", because that's all they are.

14 minutes ago, Astech said:

I can't see anything innately broken with them - no OP combos or NPEs. Every fix boosts the strength of each card by a good deal. You'll notice I called my fixes "okay", because that's all they are.

I think they are good fixes.
However I don't think FFG is really trying to fix anyhting. They will, instead, release better astromechs. They don't like the idea of having so many cards that do stuff different from what is printed on them.
They seem to only be willing to alter the text of a card when it is twisting the meta in such a way that it affects the whole game negatively.

I mean, I don't think they will ever errata "R3 Astromech" to have a better ability. Instead, they could release, in the future, a new independent version of "R3 Astromech", with different art and all, that everyone will use instead. A bit like what they did with the Millenium Falcon title.

2 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

I think they are good fixes.
However I don't think FFG is really trying to fix anyhting. They will, instead, release better astromechs. They don't like the idea of having so many cards that do stuff different from what is printed on them.
They seem to only be willing to alter the text of a card when it is twisting the meta in such a way that it affects the whole game negatively.

I mean, I don't think they will ever errata "R3 Astromech" to have a better ability. Instead, they could release, in the future, a new independent version of "R3 Astromech", with different art and all, that everyone will use instead. A bit like what they did with the Millenium Falcon title.

Yes, this does seem to be the way they're going. But still, how hard is it to adjust the wording on R3 astromech in future reprints, then add the FAQ entry for it. You don't have to make every card top-tier (where the FAQ becomes really important), just good enough to be playable?

46 minutes ago, Astech said:

I can't see anything innately broken with them - no OP combos or NPEs. Every fix boosts the strength of each card by a good deal. You'll notice I called my fixes "okay", because that's all they are.

I fundamentally don't agree with trying to make every upgrade 'good'. I also don't agree with how much you're pushing all these things into homogeny, there's Astromechs in here that I like as they are because they're quirky and you need to muck about to get value from them, but you're changing them to be a vanilla power level.

R2 Astromech is good as he is (great on Snap Wexley). R2-F2 is good as he is (I had a great Ghost/Biggs/Arc list that saw Biggs throwing 4 or 5 green dice with multiple focus tokens). R7-T1 is good as he is (I use him with Thane for mid-combat repositioning). Targeting Astromech is good as he is (I use it on Hobbie Klivian to remove his stress, and you kill that interaction). I've never used R3 Astromech but I've also never understood the hate for it.

I've used all these Astromechs in janky fun squads and they've all done a great job. Kill these and you kill creative janky squads just in the name of trying to force everything to a power level and efficiency you want.

Edit: if you put a gun to my head and told me to use R3 Astromech I'd probably put it with Snap Shot, as R3 doesn't count as modification even though it occurs in the Modify Attack Dice step. T-70 with Comm Relay optional.

24 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I fundamentally don't agree with trying to make every upgrade 'good'. I also don't agree with how much you're pushing all these things into homogeny, there's Astromechs in here that I like as they are because they're quirky and you need to muck about to get value from them, but you're changing them to be a vanilla power level.

R2 Astromech is good as he is (great on Snap Wexley). R2-F2 is good as he is (I had a great Ghost/Biggs/Arc list that saw Biggs throwing 4 or 5 green dice with multiple focus tokens). R7-T1 is good as he is (I use him with Thane for mid-combat repositioning). Targeting Astromech is good as he is (I use it on Hobbie Klivian to remove his stress, and you kill that interaction). I've never used R3 Astromech but I've also never understood the hate for it.

I've used all these Astromechs in janky fun squads and they've all done a great job. Kill these and you kill creative janky squads just in the name of trying to force everything to a power level and efficiency you want.

There is a need for a slim few objectively "poor" upgrades in a game to give new players a scale of card value. Other than that, it's unreasonable to say that there should be heaps of "meh" cards in the game. Sure, you can get some use out of them with jank, but a player following the beaten path will have a much easier time of it.

R2 is merely okay. Snap doesn't get anything particularly great out of it, since she doesn't really like getting stressed in the first place. R2-F2 is mathematically worse unless you design a list around the card (and with a Kanan/Tactical jammer combo, more focus is already a better use of an action than 1 more agility). R7-T1 is absurdly situational for the three points he requires, especially considering BB-8 is a point less: even on Thane (who is probably his best carrier), you're often better served by spending those points on Jyn/Vectored thrusters/etc. Targeting astromech is only good on Hobbie because of the innate aconomy, and even then he has less action economy than an X7 defender. R3 Astromech basically stops you from doing damage for a turn in order to get an evade token, effectively taking your ship out of the fight.

I haven't killed any of these astromechs. Most of my proposed fixes keep near-identical mechanics, merely increased to the current power level. You're saying that janky lists are inherently on a lower power level than the meta-lists, but I'm saying that they don't have to be.

10 minutes ago, Astech said:

I haven't killed any of these astromechs. Most of my proposed fixes keep near-identical mechanics, merely increased to the current power level. You're saying that janky lists are inherently on a lower power level than the meta-lists, but I'm saying that they don't have to be.

And I'm saying that it's desirable that they are.

I would amend the points cost on a couple of Astromechs (R7-T1, R5-D8 and R2-F2 are probably prime candidates to drop a point, I think a 'mech has to be really good to justify >2 pts cost) but the only one that I think are mechanically in need of a 'fix' are R5-X3 and maybe R5-K6.

R5-X3 really suffers from being a discard mech when 90% of mechs are played with Integrated Astromech, so I would probably make him 'always on' with a dice roll chance of being discarded any time you hit a rock. R5-K6 looks very sad next to R2 Agromech and I'd consider just removing the dice roll and having him auto-reacquire your lock after the attack - the Rebels are lacking a good aggressive mech.

Edit: though it may still take longer than an hour to come up with good fixes.

I agree with our guy staying on the leader here.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Edit: if you put a gun to my head and told me to use R3 Astromech I'd probably put it with Snap Shot, as R3 doesn't count as modification even though it occurs in the Modify Attack Dice step. T-70 with Comm Relay optional.

Similar to what you've said here, another thing I've thought a lot about for R3 is it might be *okay* / maybe-even-sort-of-good, on ships with low repositioning value where you will essentially take a focus or target lock action every turn anyway.

I know a lot of people instantly saw the combo with Norra but it seems like many stop there.

Put R3/CommRelay on a couple Blue, or RedVeteran X wings and now you can take a target lock to maximize your damage every turn--and still get an occasional HP or two over the course of the match--on those turns where you spend your target lock to roll -,-,H into a F,H,H and can't modify the focus anyway. Plus the free HP from IA (something you're probably taking over VT or AT anyway because of their low pilot skill). It's a like the x-wing suddenly has an extra 2HP, maybe even 3 or 4!, and all of a sudden the generics don't seem as bad.

2 hours ago, Astech said:

Following on from my previous thread, giving a back-of-the-envelope fix for every ship below the power curve and asking why FFG can't do the same with paid developers working full time. Now I'm looking at the game's Astromechs (not salvaged though), and giving them what they deserve:

R2 Astromech: R2's a bit of a weird one. One the one hand, Unhinged Astromech is really good, yet R2 very rarely sees play. Here's the fix.

R2 Astromech (Astromech, 0 points)

The opportunity cost is enough. Every ship that can take R2 can take the better astromechs.

R2-F2: R2-F2 is, in this 2-3 ship meta, almost always worse than a focus action. Given that one more point gives you R2-D2, it's living in a long shadow. Here's the fix.

R2-F2 (Astromech, 3 points, Unique)
"When you are defending, if you executed a white maneuver this round, you may roll 1 additional defence die."

Now an action isn't required, and it gets out of the "green maneuver rut" of astromechs. It doesn't combo with Biggs' typical slow-playing either.

R3 Astromech: It's bad in every way - poor timing chief among them. Here's the fix.

R3 Astromech (Astromech, 2 points)
"When defending, you may cancel all defense dice. If you do, after the attack resolves you may assign 1 evade token to your ship."

The functionality is changed a little, but can help jousters in their battle against multiple aces, without preventing damage from multiple shots.

R5 Astromech: Again, it's the opportunity cost that makes the R5 useless - there are better things you can use the slot for. Here's the fix.

R5 Astromech (Astromech, 1 point)
"When you are dealt a face up damage card with the 'ship' trait, you may discard it immediately without resolving its effect."

You get determination, but for ship-based crits. Given that there are other equally good astromech options at the 1 point level I don't think it's over the top.

R5-D8: One of the worst astromechs; there's literally no reason to take this ship over R5-P9. Here's the fix.

R5-D8 (Asteomech, 3 points, Unique)
"Action: Roll three attack dice. For each [hit] and [crit] result, discard one of your damage cards."

The basic premise is the same, but now you get a fun variance card akin to Lando with the possibility of recovering three damage from a single action. Given the action dependency and massive variance, I think it's balanced.

R5-K6: The worst of the astromechs. As soon as you take this you're better off in a B-wing with FCS. Here's the fix.

R5-K6 (Astromech, 2 points, Unique)
"When performing a [torpedo] or [missile] secondary weapon attack, you may reroll any number of attack dice."

Keeping with the reroll theme, you get a great boost to secondary weapons (Y-wings, anyone?), while still being fairly good integrated astromech fodder.

R5-X3: While the concept is good, Dash is better. Again, the opportunity cost is more than X3's worth. Here's the fix.

R5-X3 (Astromech, 1 point, Unique)
"When you reveal a white maneuver, you may ignore obstacles until the end of the round."

I can imagine this forking very well with the Y-wing's limited dial and turret. Considering the opportunity cost, I think it's fairly balanced.

R7 Astromech: It's actually pretty good, but the opportunity cost again makes it worse than R2-D2 or R5-P9. Here's the fix.

R7 Astromech (Astromech, 2 points)
"Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice. Then acquire a target lock on another ship."

That last part makes all the difference - sort of becoming a defensive Fire Control System.

R7-T1: T1 is pretty good, but regen is simply better. It's pretty hard to trigger and when it does it can often be lacklustre. Here's the fix.

R7-T1 (Astromech, 3 points, Unique)
"After you execute a maneuver, if there is an enemy ship within your firing arc at range 1-2, you may perform a free boost action."

This way its action-independent, giving you much more flexibility. R2-D2's still better, but the gap is closer.

Targeting Astromech: It gets worse as you as a player get better.. Here's the fix.

Targeting Astromech (Astromech, 2 points)
"You may perform [target lock] actions while stressed."

Now it works for every turn you're stressed, not just on the K-turn. It's still pretty bad in comparison to BB-8 for keeping your actions going, though.

That's it for the least used (and totally unused) astromechs. I'll ask again, if I can make okay fixes in an hour or so, then why can't FFG do the same in a year?

how in **** are these balanced? r5d8 would make ships basically imune to tie fighter or other 2 die attack ships. y-wing with hull upgrade has 6 hull, and you'd be gaining back an average of 2 hull a turn. we dont even have a card that consistently heals 1 hull, and thats intentional.

8 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And I'm saying that it's desirable that they are.

I would amend the points cost on a couple of Astromechs (R7-T1, R5-D8 and R2-F2 are probably prime candidates to drop a point, I think a 'mech has to be really good to justify >2 pts cost) but the only one that I think are mechanically in need of a 'fix' are R5-X3 and maybe R5-K6.

R5-X3 really suffers from being a discard mech when 90% of mechs are played with Integrated Astromech, so I would probably make him 'always on' with a dice roll chance of being discarded any time you hit a rock. R5-K6 looks very sad next to R2 Agromech and I'd consider just removing the dice roll and having him auto-reacquire your lock after the attack - the Rebels are lacking a good aggressive mech.

Edit: though it may still take longer than an hour to come up with good fixes.

The thing about R5-D8 is that it's definitively worse than R5-P9, even at 2 points. P9 gives you a focus for the turn in case you need it, then lets you recover a shield (which is typically better than recovering hull). R5-D8 soaks up your action by itself and only gives you 0.625 hull back. And at 2 points, R7 astromech or BB-8 is going to prevent more damage at the same price.

If R7-T1 was 2 points it'd be pretty good, but again, BB-8 is better at that point (especially on the typical X-wing where T1 is put most often).

Again with R2-F2, in almost all circumstances in this 2-3 ship meta, the focus action is better defensively, especially if you're already at 3-4 agility with kanan. If you just give an escorting ship Jyn Erso, you get better defense for a point less.

I like your idea for R5-X3 - that would really help him out. If you make R5-K6 identical to FCS, there's no point in take an X/Y/E/Arc over a B-wing with FCS (save maybe a norra build, but she really likes either regen or BB-8) since they have better jousting efficiency anyway.

I'm happy to say that an hour's tinkering is good enough for some brainstormed ideas, but I can't imagine the design process taking more than a day (excluding playtesting).

7 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

Similar to what you've said here, another thing I've thought a lot about for R3 is it might be *okay* / maybe-even-sort-of-good, on ships with low repositioning value where you will essentially take a focus or target lock action every turn anyway.

I know a lot of people instantly saw the combo with Norra but it seems like many stop there.

Put R3/CommRelay on a couple Blue, or RedVeteran X wings and now you can take a target lock to maximize your damage every turn--and still get an occasional HP or two over the course of the match--on those turns where you spend your target lock to roll -,-,H into a F,H,H and can't modify the focus anyway. Plus the free HP from IA (something you're probably taking over VT or AT anyway because of their low pilot skill). It's a like the x-wing suddenly has an extra 2HP, maybe even 3 or 4!, and all of a sudden the generics don't seem as bad.

R3 can do things if a list is built around it. The trouble is that without Comm Relay, only high PS pilots get the benefit, and even they want BB-8 or R2-D2 more.

R3 + Comm Relay on a Blue Squadron pilot is already at 29 points Sure, you're occasionally getting what is essentially more health, but is it worth 5 points of a list? You're sacrificing offensive power of a little bit of extra defense, for 5 points per ship. In the current state of the game attacks with just a TL don't do very much I'd say you could expect, at most, 3 extra health out of the setup, and probably only 2, given your opponent will see the need to focus fire and burn down your single defensive token, AGI 2 ships one by one.

7 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

how in **** are these balanced? r5d8 would make ships basically imune to tie fighter or other 2 die attack ships. y-wing with hull upgrade has 6 hull, and you'd be gaining back an average of 2 hull a turn. we dont even have a card that consistently heals 1 hull, and thats intentional.

You'd be gaining an average of 1.5 hull per turn, and using an action to do so - compare this to R5-P9, who guarantees that you'll get 1 shield back, and gives you a focus token if you need it until the end phase.

If you have a single TIE attacking a regen ace (who in this instance is obviously going to be a Y-wing or Arc-170), then you're doing it wrong. For one, a TIE swarm can easily block the low-maneuverability ships. And secondly, focus fire will burn down AGI 1 ships very, very quickly.

R2 is weird in that it should be on a) a ship that's action dependant b) has a lot of red on the dial c) there isn't a synergy with another pilot ability or droid.

Imagine if Blackmoon squadron pilot had an EPT. R2 would _definitely_ be worth a point to pair it with PTL (effectively adding a lot of red to the dial). Though Blackmoon might still be over costed by ~3-4 points.

If the T-65 had the B-Wing dial, I could see putting either R2 or Targeting Astromech (TA) on it.

All of which is my way of saying: the R2 mech is appropriately costed for what it does. It simply isn't needed on any current ships.

Speaking of TA: the Y-Wing would _love_ Targeting Astromech... If it ever saw play outside of a platform for TLTs. And the Targeting Astromech/Synched Turret combo is just as expensive as a TLT by itself.

I do like your TA fix. It would make Hobbie into a maniac, which I kinda like.

In my mind, the fix to R3 is to cancel the primary weapon requirement. Though that might make ships with TLTs too good.

I did once experiment with the R3/Accuracy Corrector/Juke combo. It wasn't as good as I wanted it to be. That may simply be because the E-Wing is too expensive overall. But R3 is best on ships that shoot higher in the turn order, and basically _all_ of those would prefer regen.

Which is the biggest problem with R3: it is not quite as good as regen, and also hurts your offensive output. I'm not sure how to square all of that without utterly rewriting it.

Your R2-F2 fix is good (the card always sucked), but it does have the downside of potentially making Biggs better.

Anyway. Those are some of my thoughts.

2 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

R2 is weird in that it should be on a) a ship that's action dependant b) has a lot of red on the dial c) there isn't a synergy with another pilot ability or droid.

Imagine if Blackmoon squadron pilot had an EPT. R2 would _definitely_ be worth a point to pair it with PTL (effectively adding a lot of red to the dial). Though Blackmoon might still be over costed by ~3-4 points.

If the T-65 had the B-Wing dial, I could see putting either R2 or Targeting Astromech (TA) on it.

All of which is my way of saying: the R2 mech is appropriately costed for what it does. It simply isn't needed on any current ships.

Speaking of TA: the Y-Wing would _love_ Targeting Astromech... If it ever saw play outside of a platform for TLTs. And the Targeting Astromech/Synched Turret combo is just as expensive as a TLT by itself.

I do like your TA fix. It would make Hobbie into a maniac, which I kinda like.

In my mind, the fix to R3 is to cancel the primary weapon requirement. Though that might make ships with TLTs too good.

I did once experiment with the R3/Accuracy Corrector/Juke combo. It wasn't as good as I wanted it to be. That may simply be because the E-Wing is too expensive overall. But R3 is best on ships that shoot higher in the turn order, and basically _all_ of those would prefer regen.

Which is the biggest problem with R3: it is not quite as good as regen, and also hurts your offensive output. I'm not sure how to square all of that without utterly rewriting it.

Your R2-F2 fix is good (the card always sucked), but it does have the downside of potentially making Biggs better.

Anyway. Those are some of my thoughts.

To summarize my opinion on R2 as currently worded:
The value of the R2 astromech may be equal to a single squad point, but the value of BB-8 - a droid that costs a single point more - is worth significantly more than 2 points while achieving the same goal of increased maneuverability. In effect, by taking R2 astromech you're losing out on the opportunity to get other astromechs that, while expensive, provide far better value for "money".

Even if R3 astromech is allowed on secondary weapons, you still need to be high PS to use it effectively (at least 7, and probably 8), so you're limited to high PS Arcs and Y-wings. Horton already has heaps of problems, as does Dutch (not the least of them being no native EPT, so the TLT problem isn't that bad. Norra is pretty much stapled to R2-D2/BB-8, and Shara likes a support role (probably M9-G8 or R7 astromech). As-written, it simply has no niche in which another card doesn't do better.

I see what you mean aout R2-F2, but Imperial alpha strikes with cruise missiles are a big thing, and ordiance in general is a huge part of the game. R4-D6 gives Biggs an essential level of protection against spike damage, so he really can't use other astromechs effectively.

I'm with SotL also. Half of the astromechs that you talked about are ones that I use regularly, and I love them just the way they are. Three of them appear in a build that I've flown in 80 games so far, including better than a 75% win percentage in tournaments. Two of those three astromechs are better in that list as they currently are than they would be with your changes. The third, R2 Astromech, would be a small boon, but unnecessary.

Your R5-D8 would be abusive on a Y wing. Recovering 1.5 damge a turn (on average) while pumping out TLTs would be a NPE for your opponet.

You can slander the developers, but it doesn't mean that your fixes are better.

The only thing wrong with the R2 mech is that it's only available in the Y wing expansion. I love it on PTL Wedge, and it's well worth 1 point.

I was considering going through and responding to each fix suggestion (some of which I like, some of which I don't), but I'll just do the first one:

R2 Astromech - The reason this one is rarely played isn't because it isn't good. The reason it's rarely played is because T-65s aren't very good. The one T-65 you see in a given squad needs a specialty droid to perform its function.

If, for example, a Rookie Pilot were 19 points, you would see people playing with multiple T-65s and multiple R2 Astromechs.

21 hours ago, Astech said:

The thing about R5-D8 is that it's definitively worse than R5-P9, even at 2 points. P9 gives you a focus for the turn in case you need it, then lets you recover a shield (which is typically better than recovering hull). R5-D8 soaks up your action by itself and only gives you 0.625 hull back. And at 2 points, R7 astromech or BB-8 is going to prevent more damage at the same price.

If R7-T1 was 2 points it'd be pretty good, but again, BB-8 is better at that point (especially on the typical X-wing where T1 is put most often).

Again with R2-F2, in almost all circumstances in this 2-3 ship meta, the focus action is better defensively, especially if you're already at 3-4 agility with kanan. If you just give an escorting ship Jyn Erso, you get better defense for a point less.

I like your idea for R5-X3 - that would really help him out. If you make R5-K6 identical to FCS, there's no point in take an X/Y/E/Arc over a B-wing with FCS (save maybe a norra build, but she really likes either regen or BB-8) since they have better jousting efficiency anyway.

I'm happy to say that an hour's tinkering is good enough for some brainstormed ideas, but I can't imagine the design process taking more than a day (excluding playtesting).

R3 can do things if a list is built around it. The trouble is that without Comm Relay, only high PS pilots get the benefit, and even they want BB-8 or R2-D2 more.

R3 + Comm Relay on a Blue Squadron pilot is already at 29 points Sure, you're occasionally getting what is essentially more health, but is it worth 5 points of a list? You're sacrificing offensive power of a little bit of extra defense, for 5 points per ship. In the current state of the game attacks with just a TL don't do very much I'd say you could expect, at most, 3 extra health out of the setup, and probably only 2, given your opponent will see the need to focus fire and burn down your single defensive token, AGI 2 ships one by one.

You'd be gaining an average of 1.5 hull per turn, and using an action to do so - compare this to R5-P9, who guarantees that you'll get 1 shield back, and gives you a focus token if you need it until the end phase.

If you have a single TIE attacking a regen ace (who in this instance is obviously going to be a Y-wing or Arc-170), then you're doing it wrong. For one, a TIE swarm can easily block the low-maneuverability ships. And secondly, focus fire will burn down AGI 1 ships very, very quickly.

if i had the chance to regen 3 hull on a unique astro i would happily pay 8 points for it. at 5 points, i wouldnt play any other ship in the game save Jess pava with it and hull upgrade or Coran horn with hull upgrade. this is a classic case of power creep being proposed as "fixes".

i have a sweet fix for corran horn btw, its an E-wing only title that says "increase your attack, agility, hull and shield value by 1. you may equip a second modification for free" - 2 squad points. so balance... much fair... very fix

On 10/13/2017 at 8:28 AM, Stay On The Leader said:

Edit: if you put a gun to my head and told me to use R3 Astromech I'd probably put it with Snap Shot, as R3 doesn't count as modification even though it occurs in the Modify Attack Dice step. T-70 with Comm Relay optional.

R3 is Primary Weapon only. Just saying.

20 hours ago, stonestokes said:

I'm with SotL also. Half of the astromechs that you talked about are ones that I use regularly, and I love them just the way they are. Three of them appear in a build that I've flown in 80 games so far, including better than a 75% win percentage in tournaments. Two of those three astromechs are better in that list as they currently are than they would be with your changes. The third, R2 Astromech, would be a small boon, but unnecessary.

Nice work! I'm by no means saying that these astromechs are currently unplayable, just that you need to do a lot of tinkering to get them to work. While this is satisfying, it closes off the opportunity to be creative in larger tournaments and still have a chance of winning. I'd like to see every card within at least the lame 'league' or 'tier' of power, so that list creativity can really explode.

6 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I was considering going through and responding to each fix suggestion (some of which I like, some of which I don't), but I'll just do the first one:

R2 Astromech - The reason this one is rarely played isn't because it isn't good. The reason it's rarely played is because T-65s aren't very good. The one T-65 you see in a given squad needs a specialty droid to perform its function.

If, for example, a Rookie Pilot were 19 points, you would see people playing with multiple T-65s and multiple R2 Astromechs.

On a generic T-65, the point that R2 costs gives you one thing reliably: the ability to do green turns after completing a K-turn. Since all the other 1 - point droids are fairly garbage on massed generics, R2 is the appropriate droid here. Even so, you'd probably see most of them being used as Integrated astromech fodder, since T-65s like to slow-play after K-turns much of the time.

Furthermore, if Rookies were 19 points (A fix I wholly support), the Cartel Marauder would still destroy them in a fight, due to the upcoming Vaksai title.

Taking it one step further - if Rookies were 18 points, they would not be flying R2 aastromechs. One would probably have BB-8, another R7, perhaps one with R2-D6 and trick shot, and so on. Because the points spent to go up to a 2-point astromech are more than worth what you spend on them, since R2 is a bad mech, see?

5 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

if i had the chance to regen 3 hull on a unique astro i would happily pay 8 points for it. at 5 points, i wouldnt play any other ship in the game save Jess pava with it and hull upgrade or Coran horn with hull upgrade. this is a classic case of power creep being proposed as "fixes".

i have a sweet fix for corran horn btw, its an E-wing only title that says "increase your attack, agility, hull and shield value by 1. you may equip a second modification for free" - 2 squad points. so balance... much fair... very fix

8 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

Your R5-D8 would be abusive on a Y wing. Recovering 1.5 damge a turn (on average) while pumping out TLTs would be a NPE for your opponet.

You can slander the developers, but it doesn't mean that your fixes are better.

The only thing wrong with the R2 mech is that it's only available in the Y wing expansion. I love it on PTL Wedge, and it's well worth 1 point.

Given that Y-wings only have 5 hull - if you're regenning 3 damage then you're already down to 2. The Y-wing is a very inflexible ship, so it can be rather easy to block, stress or otherwise prevent it from completing an action (i.e. Conner nets).

You also have an identical chance to recover 0 damage. Unless this Y-wing is Kavil with PTL (a bad idea, given the greens), you're only doing 1 action and, while untokened TLT attacks can still hurt, they're far less likely to hit.

The standard focus action on a 2 agility ship recovers (on a single defense roll against a standard attack) exactly 0.5 damage on average. That means that this droid, on average, is only recovering 1 shield, in and of itself. Again, the opportunity cost of performing other actions makes the droid less powerful than it is at face value. Compare it to R2-D2, who costs a single point more: R2 can recover 1 damage a turn, guaranteed (no mechanic other than Boba Crew can stop it) and, if you're not blocked, your focus action can mitigate a further 0.5 damage (on an X-wing), or 0.75 on it's typical E-wing home. Therefore, R2-D2 does the same thing, on average, as R5-D8, the difference being that R2 guarantees some regeneration, and is unblockable.

On PTL Wedge I won't deny the effectiveness (save that he costs exactly as much at PTL Fen). But for a single point more you can get BB-8. Again, that extra point provides at least 3 point of value (extra maneuverability, access to barrel roll and so on). THere's no reason to take R2 over BB-8 when you have that point to spare.

The fixes the developers have released have been pretty on-the-ball. The only exception I can think of was X7, and that was later nerfed to the perfect level. I'm just wondering why they can't do more of them, thus making the significantly less used half of the community's collection relevant again.

I personally don’t think any upgrade should be outright bad. I really dislike the whole “it teaches players what bad is!” argument. You know what else teaches them that? When they put a card they like on another card they like without consideration of how instead they could have put those cards with ones that are synergistic and increase the value of both cards as most any good build should do.

However, I also believe that a healthy amount of upgrades should have niche use and little outside of that. But in that niche use, it needs to actually be good. Cards that fall under this umbrella would be something like R7 Astro on Tarn, or Targeting Mech on Hobbie. if the xwing was up to snuff, these could be some really fun, unique pilot and upgrade combos to fly.

Basically, you still want the players to have some sort of “ah ha!” moments when they find a great card combo. If everything is always just great, then you lose a lot of that.

19 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I personally don’t think any upgrade should be outright bad. I really dislike the whole “it teaches players what bad is!” argument. You know what else teaches them that? When they put a card they like on another card they like without consideration of how instead they could have put those cards with ones that are synergistic and increase the value of both cards as most any good build should do.

However, I also believe that a healthy amount of upgrades should have niche use and little outside of that. But in that niche use, it needs to actually be good. Cards that fall under this umbrella would be something like R7 Astro on Tarn, or Targeting Mech on Hobbie. if the xwing was up to snuff, these could be some really fun, unique pilot and upgrade combos to fly.

Basically, you still want the players to have some sort of “ah ha!” moments when they find a great card combo. If everything is always just great, then you lose a lot of that.

I think you need at least 1 'bad' card per wave. Saboteur is the perfect example. It's a different kind of lesson than learning about synergy.

The trouble with upgrades having a niche use (Like R7 with Tarn, or Targeting with Hobbie) is that they almost universally have no other use. In effect, those cards are stapled to that one pilot, and that's all they do. It doesn't encourage list creativity and, while it is exciting to discover, it doesn't offer the player much more beyond that (especially since they're not top-tier any way).

Everything can be great without necessarily being great on all ships. For example, the R7 astromech fix doesn't fit at all on Corran, Norra or Shara, but it makes Tarn significantly more intimidating, and can give Rookie pilots actual jousting ability now.

11 hours ago, Astech said:

I think you need at least 1 'bad' card per wave. Saboteur is the perfect example. It's a different kind of lesson than learning about synergy.

But what is the value in this? I can learn this without Saboteur existing. Things I have learned about the game simply by playing it- Actions are important and must be really strong to warrant use over the others, randomness devalues a card, prerequisites to trigger an ability devalue a card. Knowing this, all I know is that Saboteur was priced incorrectly. Maybe it’s fine as is, but the designers simply failed to price it correctly. At 0 points, it probably doesn’t see a ton of play, but it could find a niche spot on say, Ashoka or the like.

Purposely making bad cards just makes no sense to me. Just do your best to make everything usable in some way. I don’t care if the card is crap 99% of the time as long as it has a positive use 1% of the time (preferably competitively).

If you airball on some that you tried to make usable? That’s fine. That happens. And if FFG would just come out and say “hey, we messed up on this one. Here is what we were trying to do and here is why that didn’t happen”, I would have a lot less issues with crappy cards (but might lose faith in their design team a little more).

But I refuse to applaud an intentionally poorly designed card.

15 hours ago, Astech said:

The trouble with upgrades having a niche use (Like R7 with Tarn, or Targeting with Hobbie) is that they almost universally have no other use. In effect, those cards are stapled to that one pilot, and that's all they do. It doesn't encourage list creativity and, while it is exciting to discover, it doesn't offer the player much more beyond that (especially since they're not top-tier any way).

Sorry meant to copy these in different segments in the same post. Oops. Double post ftw.

Who says they universally have no other use? Targeting Astro pairs really well with stay on target. It also combos great with advanced sensors + munitions for a sneaky fully modded ordnance shot on a red. Are these game busting combos? No, but it isn’t with Hobbie either.

Just because they synergize really well in one spot doesn’t mean they are devoid of other synergies. I guess my intention with saying upgrades should have niche spots is more so directed at the point I’m trying to make that they shouldn’t be good EVERYWHERE, as opposed to what you think I’m intending as them being good in only a single place (which I prefer to being good everywhere still though). I did initially say they should have "little outside of that" in their niche use, but I should probably redact that statement as that makes it sound like I want the upgrades use to be a little too inclusive.

The current chassis selection for astromechs has me think they are more the issue for a lot of these droids, although there are for sure a couple of stinkers. Even most of those could just see a cost adjustment to be playable though. The more I think about it the more I believe a lot of poor cards in general just need a point adjustment to be playable.

15 hours ago, Astech said:

Nice work! I'm by no means saying that these astromechs are currently unplayable, just that you need to do a lot of tinkering to get them to work. While this is satisfying, it closes off the opportunity to be creative in larger tournaments and still have a chance of winning. I'd like to see every card within at least the lame 'league' or 'tier' of power, so that list creativity can really explode.

On a generic T-65, the point that R2 costs gives you one thing reliably: the ability to do green turns after completing a K-turn. Since all the other 1 - point droids are fairly garbage on massed generics, R2 is the appropriate droid here. Even so, you'd probably see most of them being used as Integrated astromech fodder, since T-65s like to slow-play after K-turns much of the time.

Furthermore, if Rookies were 19 points (A fix I wholly support), the Cartel Marauder would still destroy them in a fight, due to the upcoming Vaksai title.

Taking it one step further - if Rookies were 18 points, they would not be flying R2 aastromechs. One would probably have BB-8, another R7, perhaps one with R2-D6 and trick shot, and so on. Because the points spent to go up to a 2-point astromech are more than worth what you spend on them, since R2 is a bad mech, see?

Given that Y-wings only have 5 hull - if you're regenning 3 damage then you're already down to 2. The Y-wing is a very inflexible ship, so it can be rather easy to block, stress or otherwise prevent it from completing an action (i.e. Conner nets).

You also have an identical chance to recover 0 damage. Unless this Y-wing is Kavil with PTL (a bad idea, given the greens), you're only doing 1 action and, while untokened TLT attacks can still hurt, they're far less likely to hit.

The standard focus action on a 2 agility ship recovers (on a single defense roll against a standard attack) exactly 0.5 damage on average. That means that this droid, on average, is only recovering 1 shield, in and of itself. Again, the opportunity cost of performing other actions makes the droid less powerful than it is at face value. Compare it to R2-D2, who costs a single point more: R2 can recover 1 damage a turn, guaranteed (no mechanic other than Boba Crew can stop it) and, if you're not blocked, your focus action can mitigate a further 0.5 damage (on an X-wing), or 0.75 on it's typical E-wing home. Therefore, R2-D2 does the same thing, on average, as R5-D8, the difference being that R2 guarantees some regeneration, and is unblockable.

On PTL Wedge I won't deny the effectiveness (save that he costs exactly as much at PTL Fen). But for a single point more you can get BB-8. Again, that extra point provides at least 3 point of value (extra maneuverability, access to barrel roll and so on). THere's no reason to take R2 over BB-8 when you have that point to spare.

The fixes the developers have released have been pretty on-the-ball. The only exception I can think of was X7, and that was later nerfed to the perfect level. I'm just wondering why they can't do more of them, thus making the significantly less used half of the community's collection relevant again.

they should absolutely do more fixes, but almost all the fixes should be nerfs, not massive buffs. all the game needs to be balanced is squad point adjustments. bump jumps up 6 point across the board. drop interceptors by 2. most t65 pilots would crush it if they were just a tad cheaper.

point is if you try to buff everything to match the top 4 ships, then youre buffing 40 ships. if you nerf the few pilots or chassis that are problems then everything levels out.

my experience is that regening one shield a turn wins games... regening 1 to 3 hull seems insane