This line of reasoning has gone down an existential one on the meaning of honor. So given the above, you can pay either the # of Cards or Honor. However, what if you had 3 cards, 3 honor and bid a difference of 4? Technically you can only then pay 3 honor or 3 cards. Clearly, you should lose for this bid, but what rules mechanic forces this? Can you pay more honor than you have, then immediately lose as it reaches 0, while you can't pay the 4 cards?

1 minute ago, Mirith said:

This line of reasoning has gone down an existential one on the meaning of honor. So given the above, you can pay either the # of Cards or Honor. However, what if you had 3 cards, 3 honor and bid a difference of 4? Technically you can only then pay 3 honor or 3 cards. Clearly, you should lose for this bid, but what rules mechanic forces this? Can you pay more honor than you have, then immediately lose as it reaches 0, while you can't pay the 4 cards?

I think because the default for a bid is to pay in honor, you would pay in honor. The optional 'choice' is no longer an option if there aren't enough valid cards for targets. The 'choice' to use honor doesn't rely on having a valid number of targets.

Just my thoughts, but I also think if you had 3 honor and 10 cards, you could still choose between honor and cards.

Also @Zesu Shadaban per Nate it is a replacement effect.

Added. Thanks.

https://fiveringsdb.com/card/duelist-training

2 hours ago, mplain said:

@ Zesu Shadaban I do not believe the entry for Replacement Effects applies to things like Duelist Training. The way this entry is worded, I think it pnly applies to interrupts. The "instead" in Duelist Training is more like the "instead" in the Dragon Stronghold. I think it's actually more clear if you read it as is without trying to apply the entry for Replacement Effects, At the very least I think the devs didn't word these cards with that entry in mind.

The Dragon Stronghold's instead is also a replacement effect. The character gets +1/+1 if they have 1 or more attachments, or +2/+2 instead if they have 2 or more attachments. This is a replacement effect in the same way Duelist training, and reprieve are.

32 minutes ago, Mirith said:

This line of reasoning has gone down an existential one on the meaning of honor. So given the above, you can pay either the # of Cards or Honor. However, what if you had 3 cards, 3 honor and bid a difference of 4? Technically you can only then pay 3 honor or 3 cards. Clearly, you should lose for this bid, but what rules mechanic forces this? Can you pay more honor than you have, then immediately lose as it reaches 0, while you can't pay the 4 cards?

You lose honor as a penalty for the bids - and it is designed that your bid can cause you to lose the game through honor loss. The option to "choose" to discard cards requires you have sufficient cards, but honor is the default and you can certainly lose through honor loss.

Quote

Isawa Kaede

While this character is attacking, the contested ring gains the Void element. If this character wins the conflict as an attacker, instead of choosing an element to resolve, resolve each of that ring's effects.

Quote

Ring Effects

Void: The attacking player chooses a character and removes 1 fate from that character.

If indeed all "insteads" are replacement effects, can we apply the same logic to Kaede?

I am attacking with Kaede and Seeker of Knowledge. There are no characters in play with fate on them. I don't have any eligible targets for resolving the Void ring. Does that mean that I don't have enough eligible targets for Kaede's replacement effect to resolve, hence, applying the same logic as to Duelist Training, " the replacement effect aspect of [Kaede's ability] fails to resolve", and so I choose between Air and whatever ring I declared?

19 minutes ago, mplain said:

If indeed all "insteads" are replacement effects, can we apply the same logic to Kaede?

I am attacking with Kaede and Seeker of Knowledge. There are no characters in play with fate on them. I don't have any eligible targets for resolving the Void ring. Does that mean that I don't have enough eligible targets for Kaede's replacement effect to resolve, hence, applying the same logic as to Duelist Training, " the replacement effect aspect of [Kaede's ability] fails to resolve", and so I choose between Air and whatever ring I declared?

Yes and no. Yes it is a replacement effect. Instead of choosing an element to resolve this step is replaced with resolving each of that ring's effects. No, it doesn't say to "choose" anything, so it isn't checking that there are targets enough to actually resolve the effects. The difference between this and Duelist Training is that Duelist Training states you can instead "choose and discard the required number of cards from their hand." Kaede doesn't say "choose and resolve each ring effect" but just "resolve each ring effect."

That said - the Ring of Void does resolve if her player wins the conflict as the attacker whether you want it to or not - if you are the only player with a character with fate on it you must choose them for its effect if they are the only valid target.

I believe that we are all over looking the wording of the card. If this has already been brought up I apologize. For clarity, the text of the card: Attached character gains: "Action: While this character is participating in a conflict, choose a participating character controlled by your opponent - challenge that character to a (Military) duel, instead of giving honor for this duel's bid , a player may choose and discard the required number of cards from hand. Bow the loser of the duel.

The bold words are my emphasis. Instead (implies an interrupt), within the duel action timing. Bid Under duel timing section D.5 "The player with the higher bid must give an amount of honor to the player with the lower bid. May (RR 11), " the word "may indicated that a specified player has the option do that which follows. Required Merriam-Webster online dictionary. definition 2b. "to demand as necessary or essential"

So it seems to me: The player with the higher bid must pay the honor, unless she decides to discard the required number of cards, if the required number are not discarded then she must pay the honor.