The deck forum is a little slow the last few days, so here's something for the weekend.

The three new Skaven allow you to take them from a side strategy to center-stage. Orc/Skaven rush is decent build that may or may not be slightly better than mono-Orc beats, but in any case plays fairly similarly. Chaos/Skaven has to play a bit differently than either the Orc version or non-Skaven Chaos decks; it can't get the huge attack pools that the Orcs can, but it's better at keeping its important-but-fragile attackers (Thanquol, Gutter Runners) alive, thanks to Horrific Mutation, which locks out small defenders and lets you kill mid-sized defenders with the Globadiers or remvoal. Here's my version:

Units: 27
3 Savage Gors (2-C)
3 Savage Marauder (3-C)
3 Bloodsworn (4-C)

3 Clan Rats (2)
3 Gutter Runners (2)
3 Clan Moulder's Elite (2)
3 Poisonwind Globadiers (3)
3 Greyseer Thanquol (3)
3 Rat Ogres (4)

Support: 14
3 Warpstone Excavation (0)
2 Cloud of Flies (0-C)
3 Contested Village (1)
3 Horrific Mutation (1-C)
3 Warpstone Meteor (3-CC)

Tactics: 9
3 Seduced By Darkness (0-C)
3 Blood for the Blood God (2-CC)
3 Flames of Tzeentch (X-CCC)

While your attacks are difficult to defend, you aren't that good at defending, either; so, you have to rely on Seduced By Darkness and Blood for the Blood God to deal with attackers -- not too much of a drawback, since both get rid of their targets for your next turn, too. Flies and Flames give you some all-purpose removal.

Another way to go would be to drop the 3 Bloodsworn, 2 Cloud of Flies, and probably a Flames of Tzeentch for 3 Chittering Horde and 3 Warp Lightning Guns. The Guns aren't bad when your attacks can't be defended, and Chittering Horde can find that all-important first Thanquol or Rat Ogre. You're giving up some Chaos icons, though, so you may have to pay for the odd loyalty cost. Animosity might also be worth considering if you go for less Chaos stuff.

Anybody go a different direction with Chaos/Skaven?

Yes actuully, no better or worse then yours but differenent. I will post it when I have a few more min. But I include chittering hordes to speed up my draw without investment in the zone, and preper nurglings vs blood for bllod god for clearing out the batelfield, and even though they slow one done a tad, I include warpligtning cannon. Also I find the chaos fledgling spawn good because he gtes boosted by attachments, and if he dies he is usefull, and I include cull the weak, for the same reason.

Its just too hilarios when you got a sadisticly mutated chaos spawn with a warplighning cannon attacking a zone.

I am not a hugh fan of cloud of flies in that deck. Only cause the only attractive target units for it are the bloodswarn or the moulder elite. Not to say its bad, just sub par IMO

Yeah, you're certainly right that Cloud of Flies isn't going on anybody other than the Moulder Elites/Bloodsworn. Still, at 6:2, you shouldn't end up with a useless Cloud too often. Fledgling Chaos Spawn would work in that spot, too, though; a free Chaos icon with pinging capability. I thought about Nurglings in the Warp Cannon version. Playing Cannons on their guys isn't all that bad with Blood for the Blood God, and nine total corruption effects can be a lot of guys locked down. Makes you want to find room for Bule, but that's probably reaching.

Nice thought, but you should have won by the time you got enough barrels to feed that big fatty bule!

Dywnarc said:

Really ? You should be able to play him on turn 3 reliably. If you use Wolves of the North then turn 2 is also possible.

Cloud of Flies is a very good card, but if you go for an orclike rush then it's slow. I would include Brutal Offering against BF instead of Blood for the Blood God especially if you could run both Thanquol and Wolwes.. A 2 power sacrifice takes many orcs dead, but your elites and bloodsworns (and non BF attackers) easily survive.

I will post my deck idea if I finished testing. (It will have the above mentioned cards + chittering horde, cannon, nurglings... I'll see how Bule works, but I bet he is still good)

Brutal Offering is worth considering, but is kind of dicey. Sometimes you'll get draws where the Offering is good (as you say, Elites, Bloodsworn, Clan Rats, and Thanquol can all duck it), but sometimes you'll have Savage Gors, Gutter Runners, or Globadiers in play and won't want to wipe them. I can see running 2 of each and dropping Flames to 2 to give you some options.

Wolves of the North is a fun card. I hesitate to put Thanquol + Horrific Mutation on it, just because Thanquol is already a target, but that would be pretty hilarious. Two attacks per turn for 5+, with all their guys at -1 HP? That's pretty good. I think if you're going to run Wolves, you probably want to make room for Chaos Knights, who are the easiest guys to use with it. Bule should be in there too, for sure.

Wrong deck topic to bring it up. But I like Malus Darkblade on the quest, cause with his special power he can clear out an light deffenders that are hanging arround, they are forced to block and get killed, or they just get killed. He clears the zone and leaves it empty for the BF attack. Problem is he is too pricey for the deck with all those DE loyality icons

Problem with bule, is not his loyalty icons, its his raw price. I woudl rather get out a clanrat and grey seer for the same price, and hit hard that turn. If you are playing him, chances are your deck is already slowing down. Keep the chaos/skaven fast, sheap and nasty.

Again not that he is a "bad" choice, he is so good its hard to shoot him down, I just feel he is subpar for this deck build.

Brutal Offering is fantastic in this deck. It is an auto-win against Orc rush. It allows you to develop your position and ignore the battlefield for a few turns. Once the Orc rush makes a big push to burn a zone (normally turn 3), sacrificing a single 2 power unit will wipe out their entire battlefield and easily allow you to overwhelm them before they can rebuild. I play with 3 Brutal Offerings in every Chaos deck as it's their best option for controlling any sort of rush.

I've played Brutal Offering quite a bit. The biggest problems with Brutal Offering are that it doesn't kill the Greyseer and you have to sac a large unit you really wanted to keep around. It is better against pure Orc rushes than Skaven, since all the Orc stuff will likely be in the battlefield. You do not want Brutal Offering in the Skaven deck itself, that's for sure.

Here's the version of Chaos/Skaven rush I'm testing right now. It's slower than the Orc/Skaven rush (although still very fast) but has more disruption - Seduce at 0 is particularly nice.

3 Contested Village
3 Warpstone Excavation
1 Warpstone Meteor

7 supports

3 Innovation
3 Flames of Tzeentch
3 Seduced by Darkness

9 tactics

2 Wolves of the North

2 quests

3 Veteran Sellswords
3 Servants of Khorne
3 Gutter Runners
3 Clan Rats
3 Clan Moulder's Elite
2 Festering Nurglings
3 Spider Riders
3 Greyseer Thanquol
3 Lobber Crew
3 Savage Marauders
3 Deathmaster Sniktch

32 units

50 total

I don't think that this is the 100% optimal build, but the best build is probably only a few cards away from this list.

In testing, I found Order decks have problems against this deck - first turn Greyseer, second turn Deathmaster is usually game over against Order unless they can Judgement or Witchhunter the Deathmaster very fast (losing a unit as well as taking 5+ a turn is fatal very fast).

I can see Chaos/Skaven going in quite a few different directions. I mean, the first 12-15 cards are Skaven; then you've got your Excavations, Villages, Seuductions, and Flames. And I guess Marauders are still automatic, even with the Deathmaster. So that's 27, probably 30 cards. But I think there are some options in the other 20 cards and there may be very little overlap in those 20 cards between one deck and the next. You can do a straight rush, you can go for more control, you can borrow from Orcs, you can borrow from DE, you can go pure Chaos/Skaven, you can run more Skaven or not, etc.

A few thoughts on your particular build:

-I REALLY don't like the Sellswords in this version as they limit you to popping Lobber Crews on your turn. You don't have anything that can pump their attack, so they never really do that much for you, and against Orc rush, they are going to help your opponent *more* than they help you. Random things like Grudge Throwers or Rock Lobbers make them bad, too.

-I know you like the Innovation, but I still don't think it quite makes the cut for me. It's OK if you draw dupe heroes and have the guts to develop them, I guess. But even then, I think Savage Gors might make better use of them.

-Nurgle's Pestilence rocks this deck pretty hard. Everybody but the Clan Moulder's Elite is either 1 HP or 2-HP and potentially self-corrupting. I think the bodies are just a little too fragile in general. Ripped Bloodthirsters happen. Seduced is good, but you're leaning on it pretty hard.

-I think I like Chaos/Orc Banner x2 with the Rider/Lobber pacakge. Those guys generally don't hang around too long, so you might end up paying a couple-three in Orc loyalty, and you aren't exactly long on Chaos icons (8 units + 3 support/quest and you want 2 on the board for Flames). Always good to have removal resistant Quest icons, too.

-While it's not quite a "must," I have a hard time getting away from Horrific Mutation. A way to get Thanquol's damage through without losing him is pretty big, and Deathmaster only makes it better. It's pretty hard to remove on the Elites. And it's a Chaos icon for one.

-While also not quite a "must," I think Globadiers are pretty darn solid. Just counting for Deathmaster/Thanquol and shutting down their Thanquol/drawing a Seduced is reason enough to play them in my book.

-I do really like Wolves of the North to "probe" for defensive tricks like Seduced, Rip, and Sigmar's Intervetion. And Thanquol is a one-man army; obviously the best unit for that quest by a wide margin, though only if they can't defend him.

cyberfunk said:

cyberfunk said:

* playing a Clan Rat to kingdom, hoping it survives till next turn and then playing the Deathmaster

* Innovate, play the Deathmaster right now , attack, corrupt to kill their blocker.

cyberfunk said:

-Nurgle's Pestilence rocks this deck pretty hard. Everybody but the Clan Moulder's Elite is either 1 HP or 2-HP and potentially self-corrupting. I think the bodies are just a little too fragile in general. Ripped Bloodthirsters happen. Seduced is good, but you're leaning on it pretty hard.

cyberfunk said:

Don't worry about the loyalty on the Spider Riders. Ok. I can see I'll have to resort to hypnosis. You are feeeeeling sleeeepy... They are not an Orc card... they are a Chaos card like this:

Savage Riders

2C

2/1. Cannot defend. Battlefield only.

You'd play that guy, right? And I think that's much better than Savage Gors given that you really don't want to be developing your battlefield just for them. So think of them as Savage Riders who randomly occasionally cost 1 less.

cyberfunk said:

cyberfunk said:

cyberfunk said:

Clamatius said:

I agree, it is in some sense a meta call, though for me the call is not close. Right now I'm pretty much worried about beating 1) other Skaven decks, 2) Chaos and/or Troll Vomit board control, and 3) Orc rush. It seems like Sellswords rates anywhere from "less than ideal but playable" to "automatic development" in those matchups. They certainly pull their weight in some other matchups, but even there are not superstars (in this deck I agree a lot of Orc builds can get their money's worth and more).

Clamatius said:

If turning X cards into X-1 barrels is a good idea for me, it generally indicates that I didn't plan properly on the previous turn. If I'm holding the Deathmaster, in your example, I'm probably going to make sure I have four barrels going into a turn where I want him on the table (which would be pretty much any turn other than the first one). Admittedly, an odd cost-distribution on the draw can throw a wrinkle into your plans, or an opponent playing removal on your Kingdom (fairly unlikely, but it happens) and Innovation can help with that. And there is a bit of a positive feedback loop with Innovation in that the more cards you draw, the more Innovations you are likely to see, thus upping your chances of getting (X-2)*2 barrels instead of X-1 barrels.

Then again, sometimes you don't see one in the first ten cards and have to choose between developing in the hopes of drawing one or not developing in the hopes of not drawing one. It also encourages playing with an empty hand, which an easy way to lose to mass removal. Say I draw Deathmaster, Thanquol, Clan Rats, Innovate, and random card x3-4. I go T1: Thanquol to Kingdom, develop, T2: DM to Quest, develop, Innovate, Rats to Quest. That's a pretty good Innovation, because it means I kill a bigger guy with DM and draw two extra cards next turn. However, it also leaves me ready to scoop to a Troll Vomit or Pestilence. If I take back those two developments, bring the Clan Rats back into hand, and turn the Innovate into a guy, I can still recover pretty easily from a Troll Vomit.

Clamatius said:

I agree it's near the bubble. I've been running a singleton in some Orc builds for the randomly free Seduced. Second wouldn't do you any good, but the first will probably save you a barrel or two and make them think about Seduced all the time. Makes more sense with Tactics, but then you've got twice as many splash cards here. I'm certainly not "worried" about the loyalty on the Spider Riders. But, if you can get 'em at half price, might as well.

Clamatius said:

I agree, I would be very careful about putting it on the Greyseer (as I say earlier). Although, the Deathmaster is usually going to be removal target numero uno, unless Thanquol is killing them that turn or something. Especially other Skaven decks just cannot sit there and take the Deathmaster. I might put Mutation on the Greyseer in some spots just to tempt them to spare the Deathmaster.

When do you envision a metagame where Orcs are not featured prominently? I don't like the Sellswords in this deck either.

I do love Innovation though. Dropping that first turn Snikth or Rat Ogre is really good. And, if you were referring to first turn with your example, remember that Sniktch wouldn't be able to corrupt and kill a unit if he's the only Skaven in play. It WOULD be awesome to be on the draw in the mirror match, Innovation into a first turn Sniktch and corrupt to kill an opposing Clan Rats, though

I don't run any banners but I do like 3x Warpstone Meteors. You simply CANNOT have units as your only source of resources and cards. Troll Vomit becomes even more brutal when it decimates all three of your zones. So even though the Warpstone Meteors ability isn't too impressive, it is two hammers that survive a Troll Vomit.

I'm not in love with Globadiers they look overcosted on paper, but they do occasionally just own some games, especially in pairs. At the least they're like 2/2's since they can ping a defender, allowing another point of damage to make it through to their capital.

I'm also not a fan of the Wolves Quest. It seems unnecessary to me and puts an even bigger bullseye on Greyseer. If it's anyone else on there, maybe you squeak two damage on to an undefended zone just doesn't seem worth it.

And finally, I think you need to be running Chittering Horde. Sometimes you just gotta dig for one of the rat heroes or (more often in my playing) a Rat Ogre, to turn Sniktch and Clan Rats into super rats.

Interesting that you came to the same conclusion as me about the tier-1 metagame (skaven, orcs, anti-unit control). I still hold out some hope that there's an Order deck somewhere but I haven't managed to find it. The biggest problem is simply that the Destro side simply has all the undercosted cards (WE, Spider Riders, Clan Moulder Elite, Greyseer, Deathmaster) but the costing on the Order side is just about what you'd expect except for Judgement. We've played a zillion different versions of Dwarf decks and they were all pretty bad - I think if there is a hope, it's probably in Empire.

You have a valid point about the Sellswords - if you are mostly worried about other rush decks then maybe you don't want them. However, IMHO this game is new enough that I would expect a fair amount of the field (maybe 40%+) to be playing random junk where the Sellswords will help you seal the deal. Maybe it's a win-more thing - if their deck is not that great then you probably don't need the extra edge the Sellswords give you.

We're back up to 2 Rat Ogres after the last session - now we know how the beginning of turn triggers work, the Ogres are really nasty if you have a Deathmaster or Clan Rat on the board.

The trick to avoid losing to a sweeper like Pestilence or Vomit is to overcommit somewhat to Quest, ideally with Contested Village & Warpstone Excavation, so if they spend their turn killing your guys you can just plonk down a couple more rats and swing. I ended up stopping playing with Troll Vomit in the control decks for exactly this reason - you can't typically do anything else the turn you play TV and then they burn zone #2. Pestilence is excellent against the Skaven but sadly doesn't kill off a lot of the greenskins (or even worse, makes them angry, like Boar Boyz and Squig Herders). I haven't tested the Orc vs. Skaven matchup much yet but I've played a ton of control vs. Skaven and control vs. Orc. That's probably why I'm overvaluing the Sellswords, come to think of it.

Ideally, the Skaven deck wants 4 barrels a turn and 3+ cards a turn. More than 4 barrels is usually too much - you'd rather have cards instead.

We've tried Chittering Hordes but the problem is that you have to run some of the worse Skaven cards like Warp Lightning Cannon to make it work and not have a solid % chance of missing. Again, overcommitting in Quest seems better.

The Wolves quest gets a lot better when you really like drawing cards (and I love drawing cards). Note that random Skaven are particularly nice on there since the Clan Rats can boost them in time to draw you extra cards as well as have them attack.

Oh yeah, a tip - if they have a destruction board, absolutely do not Innovate into Rat Ogres on turn 1. You will be very sad when they play the Lobber Crew they have in hand (and they always have it in hand. Always.)...

One note... I don't think running Warplighting Cannon is a must in order to get full use out of Chittering Horder. REMEMBER!... Chittering Horde is a Skaven card. If you're running 20 Skaven cards, that's 40% of your deck, and you should hit for two cards with CH most of the time. Sometimes you get just one, but sometimes you get four!

Clamatius said:

I don't necessarily think Skaven, Orc Rush, and Board control are the best decks, I just think that Orcs and Skaven are good and not particularly subtle. You can shuffle up all the Skaven cards and the default Neutrals and have a solid deck, regardless of the other stuff you put in. Once you play the deck a few times, you start to think about how to beat it, and board sweepers are a pretty obvious solution. So, for now, at a "competitive" event, I would expect to face primarily Skaven, Orc rush, and board control decks, with a smattering of everything else. You might see Empire/Verena/Shrine piles in fairly large numbers, just because it is also fairly obvious and good at beating bad decks. You might see a few top-heavy Orc decks, Dwarf aggro/fog + rebeats, Dwarf discard/stall, Chaos/DE, Empire w/ big CS, or Dwarf/Empire Alliance with assorted Verena/Valaya/Intervention/development cheese.

Pre-Deathmaster, my Empire decks were 50-50ish against good Orc rush but lost more often than not against board control due to the Shrine or early card draw getting disrupted. Deathmaster is just one more thing to hurt the Shrine combo, so I'm now thinking Empire may be better off without it. Then they can play Thyrus instead of Johannes, and dump the Pistoliers for some damage soakers to buy time against the rush. And they can lose the Shrines. Sigmar's Intervention is a rough card on rush decks, since the Empire player can play it after Seduced is played and often take out 2+ guys while saving a zone at the same time. And Valaya is a fairly easy splash if you want it. Zealot Hunter, Talabheim Detachment, and Sigmar's Blessed help to varying degrees in the Skaven Matchup.

My old Dwarf decks ran twelve to fourteen guys that are now Deathmaster fodder: Miner, Runesmith, Hammerer, Cannon Crew (prolly still worth it) and Rangers. This is a pretty big chunk of their deck, so they'll need some retooling. On the upside, Skaven decks are less likely to have a way to stop Valaya than are Orc rush decks. I think there's a chance you could put together a Dwarf deck that would beat Skaven/Chaos, Board Control, and Empire over 50% if you were willing to basically concede the already-poor Orc matchup. I'll have to do some testing.

Clamatius said:

Figured the timing would allow for at least one extra DM activation (would've needed to be pretty convoluted to avoid it). It's kind of a win-more card, but sometimes it's not. And it's another Skaven. I'd definitely run at least a couple.

Clamatius said:

Yeah, I rarely put Warpstones or Villages in Kingdom with any deck, and I especially try to avoid it with rush. Another hidden cost of Quests in this game. I agree, you do more or less need to get that first Vomit off against rush before they burn a zone. Unless they just have no cards whatsoever.

1. Great discussion.

2. I have not run a rush deck yet. However, I have gone up against a brutal chaos rush recently. From the receiving end, the Globadiers seem really nasty. They give the deck a great chance to "clear the way" for other attackers OR be held back as anti-rush in a mirror image game.

3. If you are running Wolves of the North then I think they become even more important, you now are potentially clearing the path for two strikes on the same zone.

4. I do not recall if this thread has any discussion of Nurgle's Shrine in this deck. I am curious what your thoughts are. As mentioned above the great thing about Chaos-Skaven is you have a lot of different paths to follow for your last 15-20 cards in the deck. Seems like there is a case for Nurgle's Shrine under the theory that it can make it more costly for your opponent to play Nurgle's Pestilence if he is going to be dinging a lot of his own guys for two damage as well.

Alas, the Shrine hardly ever gets a chance to trigger these days, since it only works on combat damage (and almost all the units involved are so fragile). I do use it but usually only if I'm heavy into chaos since they don't have many cheap units for Kingdom and Quest - you've got Nurglings and Savage Marauders and that's about it. I usually run alliances in preference to the Shrines because the Shrine activates so rarely.

I could see the Globadiers being ok, but they are kinda slow and die to Pestilence. I haven't tried them for a while though, as I said.

cyberfunk said: