So, stupid idea, but: does Grit alleviate the "unengaged" requirements for Squall and Fighter Coordination Team?

I mean, I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but what is the rules justification? I feel like it can't be the requirement that they be unengaged, because that's still engagement preventing them from moving, which is what Grit explicitly overrides. On the other hand, if you were to permit this, you're paving the way for Heavy to not prevent those abilities, which opens up a whole can of worms for things like Mauler+Intel+a bunch of FCTs, which ain't nobody wants to see.

The question basically boils down to this: in what way is the text governing Squall /FCT movement distinct from the engagement text in the RRG such that Grit (and, by extension, Heavy ) applies to the latter but not the former?

Relevant text:

Grit : "You are not prevented from moving when you are engaged by only 1 squadron."

RRG pg 6 Engagement: "... An engaged squadron cannot move."

FCT: "After you execute a maneuver, you may select a number of unengaged friendly squadrons up to your squadron value at close-medium range. Those squadrons may move up to distance 1."

Squall : "When you activate, you may choose up to three unengaged friendly squadrons at close-medium range. Those squadrons may move up to distance 2..."

Note: please don't just give me your opinion on what the ruling is ("no, Grit doesn't let you FCT cause that would be stupid!"). I agree that it doesn't work . The question is mostly an academic one: why ?

This might be baseless, but to me the wording of Squall and FCT wouldn't explicitly prevent the squadrons from moving, rather the way Squall and FCT are worded you wouldn't even be able to choose an engaged squadron at all. In other words: Squall and FCT have targeting restrictions on the squadrons you may choose to move. For example: you move a ship with FCT, there are three squadrons nearby- two unengaged and the third engaged but with grit. The first two move as normal, but the third can't because FCT says "select a number of UNENGAGED squadrons" and therefore the third squadron couldn't be selected to move at all, regardless of whether or not it is capable of movement

Hmm. I feel this is in the same vein as the Grit vs 1 heavy and 1 non heavy.

It does not let you not have the condition, only to ignore the consequences of the condition in certain circumstances.

FCT does specify unengaged. The Grit condition allows you to move while engaged, but at no point in that scenario are you unengaged for fct to even trigger for you.

Grit would help if you were able to move “move able” squadrons, rather than Unengaged. It would also work with Admiral Chiraneau at that point.

but FCTs trigger is unengaged. Not “engaged but able to move” or any variant of it.

Yeah, I think you guys are both kinda saying the same thing in different ways. For whatever reason I just got hung up on some kind of mental gymnastics I guess, but the idea of them never having been a candidate to resolve the card in the first place makes sense.

Thanks!

5 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

The question basically boils down to this: in what way is the text governing Squall /FCT movement distinct from the engagement text in the RRG such that Grit (and, by extension, Heavy ) applies to the latter but not the former?

Relevant text:

Grit : "You are not prevented from moving when you are engaged by only 1 squadron."

RRG pg 6 Engagement: "... An engaged squadron cannot move."

FCT: "After you execute a maneuver, you may select a number of unengaged friendly squadrons up to your squadron value at close-medium range. Those squadrons may move up to distance 1."

Squall : "When you activate, you may choose up to three unengaged friendly squadrons at close-medium range. Those squadrons may move up to distance 2..."

Grit requires engagement. Squall and FCT require unengagement.

While a squadron is at distance 1 of one or more enemy squadrons, it is engaged with all of those enemy squadrons.

And

If line of sight between two squadrons is obstructed, those squadrons are not engaged even if at distance 1 of each other, though they can still attack each other.

Squall and FCT allows you "something new" as long as those squadrons don't fulfill the engagement requirement. Grit remove an effect from the engagement state as long as its requirements all fulfilled.

The interesting dilemma would be with Tycho:

You are not prevented from moving or attacking ships while you are engaged.

In some way I could see someone arguing that as long as engagement also prevent FCT movement (after a logical process) it wouldn't prevent Tycho from moving though FCT.

But about that I would say that per RAW is FCT the effect that prevents Tycho from moving if engaged, not the engagement state so, no, Tycho doesn't move either.

Maybe I'm missing something but this seems pretty simple. Grit and Tycho both say something to the effect of movement is ok even while engaged. They say "engaged" in the card text. Engagement has never been broken so they are still engaged, just not prevented from moving (I'm treating moving here as normal squad activation) etc. Both Squall and FCT list unengagement as a requirement for the effect. If engagement hasn't been broken then I feel like it dies there.

Tycho is still engaged. He just ignore it and can move. But FCT is not allowed to be used on him when he is engaged.

If the text on Tycho would be: you cannot be engaged or is not engaged it would be something else.

Edit:

The same is with grid. Grid says: "You are not prevented from moving while you are engaged by only 1 squadron". But you are still engaged. So FCT does not work, because you are engaged.
If the text from grid would be: You are not engaged by only one squadron (or something like this) it would be different as well.

Being "engaged" is a condition/state that is pretty well-defined in the rules. The effects of being in this state are there are limits on that squadron's ability to move and attack.

The upgrades, keywords, and abilities you list don't change the condition the squadron is in ("engaged"). They simply change some of the effects of being engaged (i.e. relaxing the restrictions that being "engaged" would normally produce).

Since, "Squall" and "Fighter Coordination Team" team refer to the state of the squadron involved, it is irrelevant how other upgrades might change the effects of being "engaged."

That's my take on how some effects affect effects, or don't. Clear?

In other words, I agree with @durandal343 .

This is probably unnecesary to post but it’s a two stage test:

stage 1) select an unengaged team

then

stage 2) move the team you selected in stage 1.

as the squad with grit or tycho or next to intel etc are engaged they cannot be used to satisfy stage 1, so cannot go on to stage 2. It wouldn’t matter if stage 2 were something completely unrelated to movement or anything else (pick an unengaged squadron then give your openent a wedgie? Just wait until I win worlds), you can’t go on to it without satisfying stage 1