I am just curious what experiences you guys have had when starting with a lightsaber specialization. Are they viable or does it make a character too combat focused?

That depends almost entirely on the player. Also characteristics and skills pay a large role in what options the characters have. If they are all Brawn, Athletics, Resilience, Vigilance, and Discipline they don't have much options outside of combat.

Edit: On the other hand, if they have other characteristics/skills like Presence, Charm, Deception, etc. they have options outside of combat (or to avoid combat), even if they only have lightsaber trees.

1 hour ago, JinFaram said:

I am just curious what experiences you guys have had when starting with a lightsaber specialization. Are they viable or does it make a character too combat focused?

There are many combat oriented specs already in the game, they are not something new, marauder, gunslinger, heavy most of the soldier specs, infiltrator is a flat out melee spec with a few talents for stealth, none of these have issues, most of the saber specs also have other talents that might not relate as much to combat (well not offense at least, excepting shi cho)

A great Lightsaber spec if you're wanting a more social character would be Makashi Duelist. You'd want your highest attribute to be Presence, and Mystic can start with Charm, Knowledge (Lore), and Knowledge (Outer Rim), which are all neat for a less combat-centric campaign. Human or Twi'lek would both be decent choices here.

And just remember, being combat-focused means it'll be hilarious when the party is split up or you're put on the spot and have to be the one to deceive that Hutt crime lord or fix that broken hyperdrive. Being bad at stuff isn't a weakness, it's a feature.

3 hours ago, JinFaram said:

I am just curious what experiences you guys have had when starting with a lightsaber specialization. Are they viable or does it make a character too combat focused?

Depends on the spec really. I mean, Niman Disciple isn't really about carving up your enemies with a glow stick of death. It's more focused on "OMG don't shoot me!" kind of stuff. So given it's defensive nature in general, you really wouldn't be very combat focused. I mean, not to the same level as other saber specs. And given the Characteristic it's tied to, you would probably be the kind of character who is good at social/mental related stuff, or at least have the most potential along that line.

Personally, I really like to lock in a second force die. Even saber-monkeys want to be able to reliably put Sense and Force Leap into play without having to flip destiny points and take conflict. As a result, if I am only starting with one spec and want some saber-fu I'm going to start with Niman Disciple. The other saber-trees give fantastic abilities (and may from a strictly combat perspective edge Niman out), but they really need to be paired with another tree if you want to grow your force potential as well. Core-book-wise, You can pair Niman with Sage or Mystic to get to FR 4 or the other non-saber trees to get to FR 3. If you want to give a little buff to Niman's parry and reflect the you can stay in the consular career and take Arbiter. That will get you to FR-3, give you two Dedications, and a few neat tricks, including improved sunder. I also feel Niman-Arbiter is one of the most "Jedi" feeling tree-combos to start with, if you want a combo, but that's just me.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Depends on the spec really. I mean, Niman Disciple isn't really about carving up your enemies with a glow stick of death. It's more focused on "OMG don't shoot me!" kind of stuff. So given it's defensive nature in general, you really wouldn't be very combat focused. I mean, not to the same level as other saber specs. And given the Characteristic it's tied to, you would probably be the kind of character who is good at social/mental related stuff, or at least have the most potential along that line.

While Niman isn't flashy compared to other saber-trees, Draw Nearer can be absolutely devastating . I've also had Force Assault save my Jedi mid-fight more than once by force-shoving a foe away after a miss. And, those two levels of defense are quite nice. I think, overall, it's an underappreciated tree.

4 hours ago, JinFaram said:

I am just curious what experiences you guys have had when starting with a lightsaber specialization. Are they viable or does it make a character too combat focused?

Not really, or at least it's no worse than starting with one of the combat-heavy specs from EotE or AoR.

Shii-Cho Knight and Soresu Defender are really the only ones that don't offer much outside of combat, but that's due in no small part to them being attached to Careers (Warrior and Guardian respectively) that are already focused on combat. It's not different than a PC starting as a Bounty Hunter/Assassin, a Hired Gun/Marauder, a Soldier/Commando, or Soldier/Sharpshooter.

I've played a couple of Sentinel/Shien Experts that had plenty to do outside of combat, thanks to having ranks in skills such as Computers, Deception, Skulduggery, and Stealth, with one of them not even drawing his lightsaber until several sessions into the campaign.

A Consular/Niman Disciple has plenty to do outside of combat due to the Consular's career skills, and are probably closest to being the archetypal Jedi in terms of their skill set.

1 minute ago, Vondy said:

While Niman isn't flashy compared to other saber-trees, Draw Nearer can be absolutely devastating . I've also had Force Assault save my Jedi mid-fight more than once by force-shoving a foe away after a miss. And, those two levels of defense are quite nice. I think, overall, it's an underappreciated tree.

Yes, that one talent is very combat oriented, out of what, 25+ talents? By simply ratio, it's not a "combat heavy" tree. Compared to others, that have multiple talents that all, or mostly, improve your combat lethality.

I didn't say Niman was a bad tree, just that it's not the tree you normally take if you want to be a saber blendering murder hobo. The devs have even said it's the more "passive" style of all of them, by the simple nature that it's talents focus on defensive things, and not offensive.

2 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yes, that one talent is very combat oriented, out of what, 25+ talents? By simply ratio, it's not a "combat heavy" tree. Compared to others, that have multiple talents that all, or mostly, improve your combat lethality.

It's not an offensively focused tree. That is true. But, it also depends on whether you envision your combat approach as being solely dependent on offensive saber-tricks or not. Talents can be important, but they aren't the only road to buffing your outcomes. Many force powers will also buff your saber skill. Two that immediately come to mind are Seek and Enhance, which both have branches that can buff your saber outcomes.

Our consular, due to his higher force rating, starts almost every saber fight with an automatic triumph on every saber check dialed in as well as a force die allocated to the sense branch that lets him upgrade incoming and outgoing attacks by two, twice in the fight. And, he's still got plenty of dice to put into those measly Draw Nearer and Force Assault talents. Or to leap around or use Move to launch objects at foes Darth Vader style.

You are absolutely right: if your measure is the tree and only the tree , Niman is not the best saber combat choice and lags behind most of the others. And in early sessions with very new characters that will show. Several trees are better out-of-the-gate offensive options in of themselves. But, having been lured by their flash, I maintain they aren't necessarily the most effective choices, even with a saber, "big picture-wise." In the mid-to-long-term Niman gives you the force dice you need to use your powers in concert with the saber, or even without it.

My personal opinion is that Niman is great, I'm simply talking about what the design focus was. But I think this is a moot point, you're trying to convince me that Niman is an effective and powerful combat style, something I never contested.

On 10/11/2017 at 0:14 PM, Underachiever599 said:

A great Lightsaber spec if you're wanting a more social character would be Makashi Duelist. You'd want your highest attribute to be Presence, and Mystic can start with Charm, Knowledge (Lore), and Knowledge (Outer Rim), which are all neat for a less combat-centric campaign. Human or Twi'lek would both be decent choices here.

Or a pantoran, they're in endless vigil, they're like cold twi'leks with an extra 10 xp

By the way Niman disciple (consular) and sentry (sentinel) in either order is the only 2 spec way to get a movie quality Jedi (it will get you 5 reflect 3 parry, improved reflect, force rating 3, 2 dedication, and a bunch of other cool stuff like you will almost always go first. It's my favorite 2 spec combo in the game.

It's also part of my favorite 4 spec combo in the game

Green nikto bounty hunter:martial artist/force sensitive emergent/Niman disciple/sentry

For about 2000 xp you can be pretty much unstoppable, you'll have a never ending supply of destiny points thanks to precision strike, coordination dodge makes you pretty much unhitable (because spend a dp and you can add 5 failures to the attack role, after you see the role but before it's been adjudicated), 5 ranks of parry and unarmed parry (so you can parry for 2 strain instead of 3 as long as you have 1 hand free), 5 ranks of reflect, improved reflect, 4 boost dice to vigilance checks and you can always use vigilance for initiative, willpower is your primary Stat so you'll be awesome at using and resisting force powers, 4 force rating, force of will (once per session you can use willpower for any skill check), can recover strain equal to willpower by spending a destiny point with mind over matter, use willpower for lights abres thanks to Niman technique, can have a 4 in brawn and 6 in willpower, 3 in agility and 3 in it or cunning, with close to maxed out move, sense and enchance, you'll be stealthy and be able to blend into a crowd. Oh and 2 ranks of defensive training.

And if you spent your xp appropriately you can have the unmatched devastation signature ability, shoot with a pistol, draw closer lightsaber (I presume draw closer against npcs with jet packs would be a cool move, no mr. Gm you can't keep your flying npc out of engaged range), if you miss you can throw him if you hit you can brawl which has a critical rating of 1 which you can use to make another attack with the same dice pool (a good time to use a repulsor fist if you have it to stagger him) then get back to unmatched devastation your gm might let you hit him a few more times with other body parts (e.g. kick him with stun boots) and you can be rolling 4 yellow 1 green and 4 white on brawl attacks so watch the crits pile up.

This will also depend on the force powers you choose. A Lightsaber focused character with Sense and Foresee will add different options than one who focused on Enhance and Move, for example.

The species selection will also play a factor, as most give a rank to one or two skills that may not be "core" to the spec but can make for a very interesting character build.

I think, gameplay wise, It might be better to start with the hybrid class like arbiter, sentry, protector, or armorer. These have a lot of uses out of combat and are more than just combat improvement classes. Then when you max out the tree, you can get a pure lightsaber form and have it feel like character progression

Does coordination Dodge really happen after you've seen the roll??

On 10/11/2017 at 2:43 PM, Stan Fresh said:

And just remember, being combat-focused means it'll be hilarious when the party is split up or you're put on the spot and have to be the one to deceive that Hutt crime lord or fix that broken hyperdrive. Being bad at stuff isn't a weakness, it's a feature.

This is an underappreciated point of view. I've always been of the opinion that half the fun of min-maxing was the min.

16 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

By the way Niman disciple (consular) and sentry (sentinel) in either order is the only 2 spec way to get a movie quality Jedi (it will get you 5 reflect 3 parry, improved reflect, force rating 3, 2 dedication, and a bunch of other cool stuff like you will almost always go first. It's my favorite 2 spec combo in the game.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's the only way. I've done it with Soresu Defender and Seer in a campaign I'm taking part in. Not exactly identical, but the end result will be FR 3, two ranks of Uncanny Reactions, 4 ranks of Parry, 3 ranks of Reflect, Improved Parry, Improved Reflect, and Supreme Parry. One less Dedication, but I'll take the trade-off for Supreme Parry. If I were to do it differently, I'd go with Shien instead of Soresu, as that gives me Supreme Reflect, which makes sense for how long Jedi were able to weather waves of blaster fire during the Clone Wars.

10 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Does coordination Dodge really happen after you've seen the roll??

I'm forgetting the source on this but I believe it only has to come before resolution, the step where gm'so say what happened. I'm forgetting which but I believe there are other talents etc. that add successes etc. after the roll and one or more of them says this.

On 10/15/2017 at 10:30 PM, EliasWindrider said:

Green nikto bounty hunter:martial artist/force sensitive emergent/Niman disciple/sentry

For about 2000 xp you can be pretty much unstoppable, you'll have a never ending supply of destiny points thanks to precision strike, coordination dodge makes you pretty much unhitable (because spend a dp and you can add 5 failures to the attack role, after you see the role but before it's been adjudicated), 5 ranks of parry and unarmed parry (so you can parry for 2 strain instead of 3 as long as you have 1 hand free), 5 ranks of reflect, improved reflect, 4 boost dice to vigilance checks and you can always use vigilance for initiative, willpower is your primary Stat so you'll be awesome at using and resisting force powers, 4 force rating, force of will (once per session you can use willpower for any skill check), can recover strain equal to willpower by spending a destiny point with mind over matter, use willpower for lights abres thanks to Niman technique, can have a 4 in brawn and 6 in willpower, 3 in agility and 3 in it or cunning, with close to maxed out move, sense and enchance, you'll be stealthy and be able to blend into a crowd. Oh and 2 ranks of defensive training.

Not to derail this thread, but apparently I am missing something.

How does Precision Strike give you an unending supply of Destiny Points?

22 minutes ago, Godric_Barbarossa said:

Not to derail this thread, but apparently I am missing something.

How does Precision Strike give you an unending supply of Destiny Points?

You can repeatedly give an enemy a "Discouraging Wound" which flips a Destiny Point.

Ah, see I figured I was missing something. **** my lack of photographic memory!

One message I'm taking from all this is that Martial Artist is the best single-spec hand-to-hand build in the game. That Precision Strike + Coordination Dodge + Mind Over Matter combo is nasty.

I guess Doctor could be better if you turn on the cheese...

2 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

One message I'm taking from all this is that Martial Artist is the best single-spec hand-to-hand build in the game. That Precision Strike + Coordination Dodge + Mind Over Matter combo is nasty.

I guess Doctor could be better if you turn on the cheese...

I would certainly hope that a martial artist excels in hand-to-hand combat. Some surgeon with a good idea of where various pressure points are shouldn't be able to deck a karate master in an unarmed fight.