1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

You ruled correctly

MM is worded just fine and should not cause any argument whatsoever

You discard your bombs

Em triggers, discarding the tokens instead

End of story, the process does not repeat

EDIT: Jesus "I can hold it" Christ, people, it's LITERALLY in the rules ref (p 8, Card Abilities). Why is this up for debate?

Swear to God this is dumber than people thinking the TIE Adv. Prototype could take the Tie/x1 title. Don't be lazy, read the rules!

Just so you know: it got ruled differently by the head TO at UK Nats.

5 minutes ago, Killerardvark said:

Yeah I was just being funny, though I'm pretty sure you understood that.

For the casual folks, I agree that it would be nice to have all the questions answered, but it's simply not worth FFG's time to exhaustively answer those questions. Now I'm sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but frankly most of the more casual players can just come up with a judgement on their own and continue to play that way. I did it just the other day doing a campaign game of imperial assault. The group agreed on "what they prolly meant" and just moved on.

I do think that's funny and a great way to stop silly questions.

:/p

i heard that on one of the podcasts the other day. Though I totally don't have any sense of humor on the internet....

no your post really made me think all players for x-wing want an FAQ not just the torny kids ;-)

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Just so you know: it got ruled differently by the head TO at UK Nats.

And my store would have no idea which is correct or the leader of my HOTAC group.

7 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Just so you know: it got ruled differently by the head TO at UK Nats.

great, they didn't read the rules ref either

the head TO didn't design the game OR write the rules to it. A TO is a TO, the weight of their rulings is neither sacred nor more significant other than the fact that they're expected to have read the rules (which they clearly have not because, again, it's outlined with explicit clarity on page 8)

****, I remember the Omega Leader thread I started. He seemed complicated, but all the answers could be definitively answered by the rules reference. Then some guy emails somebody at FFG and their answer differs not only from what could be found in the rules ref but also the final, actual FAQ

This is why we have rules to begin with, people

I think he privately conferred with FFG before he made it.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think he privately conferred with FFG before he made it.

the entire organization or one person?

FFG answers (via email) have been wrong before, specifically regarding OL and palp interaction way back before he first came out

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

great, they didn't read the rules ref either

the head TO didn't design the game OR write the rules to it

Right, but this is why it's still a Frequently Asked Question. Because people are still getting it wrong, including people with massive influence over their respective national championships.

There are a lot of things in the FAQ that probably wouldn't have needed to be there if people just thought about the Rules Reference. The whole reason the FAQ exists is to end arguments. Frankly, it's mind-boggling that we're this far out after the release of wave 11 and it's not out yet.

10 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

It’s not about how many bombs you have. It says you can discard Bomb “Upgrade Cards”. You only have 1 bomb upgrade card per...bomb upgrade card. Extra munitions doesn’t give you an extra card, it just lets you discard it instead of the card. So you discard the EM token instead, and now you’ve already had the opportunity for that upgrade card and can’t resolve it again, so you move on.

News flash:

MY SHIP DOESN'T HAVE ANY BOMBS AT ALL. I'M PRETENDING A CARD IS A BOMB, BUT FOR SOME REASON I AM NOT ALLOWED TO PRETEND A TOKEN IS A BOMB EXCEPT WHEN I CAN PRETEND A TOKEN IS A BOMB.

().

I am not arguing the ruling, and I am sure all you guys are right.

I guess what I am saying is that this token/card thing fcks with my "suspension of disbelief" in a way that matters for my enjoyment of the game.

10 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

It’s not about how many bombs you have. It says you can discard Bomb “Upgrade Cards”. You only have 1 bomb upgrade card per...bomb upgrade card. Extra munitions doesn’t give you an extra card, it just lets you discard it instead of the card. So you discard the EM token instead, and now you’ve already had the opportunity for that upgrade card and can’t resolve it again, so you move on.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/7/13/new-approaches-to-battle/

when I read the preview article it leads me to believe each token and the card count towards a bomb for each item. The fact there is confusion and different ruling between lots of people that are TO/Judges leads us to we need a FAQ not just on this but how tokens work when a card is removed. Example cloaking as stated on page one.

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

News flash:

MY SHIP DOESN'T HAVE ANY BOMBS AT ALL. I'M PRETENDING A CARD IS A BOMB, BUT FOR SOME REASON I AM NOT ALLOWED TO PRETEND A TOKEN IS A BOMB EXCEPT WHEN I CAN PRETEND A TOKEN IS A BOMB.

().

I am not arguing the ruling, and I am sure all you guys are right.

I guess what I am saying is that this token/card thing fcks with my suspension of disbelief.

It’s a simple matter of “do what the card says, don’t do what it doesn’t say”. It says discard an upgrade card. You choose to discard your cluster mine upgrade card (or whatever bomb), EM kicks in and lets you discard the token instead and keep the card, then you’re done.

5 minutes ago, Cubanboy said:

i heard that on one of the podcasts the other day.

That was prolly me O_o

That or my other catch phrase "Who cares, it's the bottom tables. Do whatever you want." Which I know gets some people a little uppity, but I do mean it tongue in cheek. Even people at the bottom tables are worthy of a good ruling. It's more meant to mean "Stop bothering me with hypothetical situations from ridiculous combos you know **** well you aren't going to fly because they aren't any good."

1 minute ago, Killerardvark said:

That was prolly me O_o

That or my other catch phrase "Who cares, it's the bottom tables. Do whatever you want." Which I know gets some people a little uppity, but I do mean it tongue in cheek. Even people at the bottom tables are worthy of a good ruling. It's more meant to mean "Stop bothering me with hypothetical situations from ridiculous combos you know **** well you aren't going to fly because they aren't any good."

I love you

7 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Right, but this is why it's still a Frequently Asked Question. Because people are still getting it wrong, including people with massive influence over their respective national championships.

There are a lot of things in the FAQ that probably wouldn't have needed to be there if people just thought about the Rules Reference. The whole reason the FAQ exists is to end arguments. Frankly, it's mind-boggling that we're this far out after the release of wave 11 and it's not out yet.

sure, it's technically F.A.Q because it apparently keeps coming up, but it really shouldn't be in the particular case of MM. It's some very clear wording with no wiggle room, regardless of how many people get it wrong even people as high up on the proverbial food chain as an FFG representative (which, again, incorrectly interpreted the OL v Palp interaction and believed OL could override palp when he was used on a ship other than the one he was on). Unless FFG explicitly changes the card text, there really is no way for MM to work other than through simple logical error.

and there are some sloppily written rules, don't get me wrong, but MM is not one of them.

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I guess what I am saying is that this token/card thing fcks with my "suspension of disbelief" in a way that matters for my enjoyment of the game.

That's kinda ... weird, though, isn't it? A very strange place to draw a boundary? I mean:

* You accept that a ship without additional upgrades may only carry a single bomb in its chutes (even a ship specifically called a bomber).

* You accept that that bomb is represented by an upgrade card that is discarded on use.

... But you draw the line at "this token is something that allows me to not discard the piece of cardboard that represents a bomb"?

I'm not really negatively judging -- like many nerds, I have my own OCD weirdnesses -- but that just seems like a particularly arbitrary place for suspension of disbelief to get snagged.

6 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

It’s a simple matter of “do what the card says, don’t do what it doesn’t say”. It says discard an upgrade card. You choose to discard your cluster mine upgrade card (or whatever bomb), EM kicks in and lets you discard the token instead and keep the card, then you’re done.

Right, but:

8 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

this token/card thing fcks with my "suspension of disbelief" in a way that matters for my enjoyment of the game.

That's all. I get the gameology; it's ruins my pretendology. If EM doubles my munitions, and I have 2 bombs, then I have 4 bombs. For pretend, and for play, regardless of how they are deployed into play.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Right, but:

That's all. I get the gameology; it's ruins my pretendology. If EM doubles my munitions, and I have 2 bombs, then I have 4 bombs. For pretend, and for play, regardless of how they are deployed into play.

Woe woe woe... you're pretendology? (not arguing the word, I love made up words)

If we're going that route, minefield mapper is what? You mapping out a minefield. Has nothing to do with deploying them. "But what if he was the one who got there first and mapped the minefield by putting them there?!?!" Then the other group of ships wouldn't have been able to be there so they couldn't also have minefield mapper, nor should their ships have any bearing on where the mines get deployed and so on and so forth and other thematic arguments!!!!

I'm completely ok with making it only the number of cards you have available because it then puts a hard cap on the number of bombs that can be on the battlefield to start the game. It's a balance thing at that point for me.

18 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That's kinda ... weird, though, isn't it? A very strange place to draw a boundary? I mean:

* You accept that a ship without additional upgrades may only carry a single bomb in its chutes (even a ship specifically called a bomber).

* You accept that that bomb is represented by an upgrade card that is discarded on use.

... But you draw the line at "this token is something that allows me to not discard the piece of cardboard that represents a bomb"?

I'm not really negatively judging -- like many nerds, I have my own OCD weirdnesses -- but that just seems like a particularly arbitrary place for suspension of disbelief to get snagged.

Yeah, prolly.

I guess this is how I look at it: Card = Bomb. EM = +1 Bomb. Use Token instead of a new card. Thus, Token = Bomb. If Card = Bomb, and Token = Bomb, then Token = Card.

But, in gameplay, that's not true. I have 1 Real Bomb and 1 Ersatz Bomb that may or may not function like a Real Bomb depending upon the circumstances of play.

Thus, the gameplay mechanic is ruining my notion that Extra Munitions are in fact, Extra Munitions aboard my ship.

I agree with @ficklegreendice that it is a timing thing that is clearly stated on the cards. Think of it like this (of course I could be stirring up another can of worms here but...)

Omega Ace says "When attacking, you may spend a focus token and a target lock you have on the defender to change all of your results to Critical Hit results."

Targeting Synchronizer Says "When a friendly ship at Range 1-2 is attacking a ship you have locked, the friendly ship treats the 'ATTACK (TARGET LOCK):' header as 'ATTACK:'. If a game effect instructs that ship to spend a target lock, it may spend your target lock instead."

Now my understanding is that because Omega Ace specifically says a target lock "you" have on the defender this means that Omega Ace cannot use TS to turn all results to Crits. Same as OL can't use it to activate his Pilot ability, however if I want to use the TS target lock to reroll dice that Omega Ace rolled then I can do that. (although if you have a tl and a focus why would you since you can just spend them and turn the dice to crits)

I could be wrong here but to me this is a clear distinction on the card text. With MM and EM there is no distinct wording to say anything other than the way @ficklegreendice has interpreted it.

EM says "When you equip this card, place 1 ordnance token on each equipped Torpedoes, Missiles, and Bomb Upgrade card. When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead."

So based on this wording we as a community have used it to give ourselves an extra whatever we equip, i.e. 2 proton torpedoes, 2 cluster mines etc. Each card specifically states to discard the card to use the munition.

Cluster Mines says. "ACTION: Discard this card to drop 1 cluster mine token set.

When a ship's base or maneuver template overlaps a cluster mine token, that token detonates."

MM says " During setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards. Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships."

I guess the hiccup is the phase any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards. However if you only can equip one Bomb upgrade card because you only have one Bomb slot then you can only discard one bomb card. This is where EM comes in, you are instructed to discard a bomb upgrade card, EM says wait a minute you can discard the token instead.

So based on that the logic then goes to ships that can carry more than one Bomb Upgrade, The way MM reads to me is that now you have a decision to make, do I drop 2 sets of clusters or do I drop just one set.

No where in the wording do I read Go ahead and drop all 4 because you have EM equipped you now have 4 bomb upgrade cards, no you only have 2 EM just lets you discard the token instead of the card so you have a second Bomb to use later.

Sorry for the wall of text. Let the flaming begin.

ALSO ALL HAIL THE GUNBOAT

12 minutes ago, smccaughan said:

I agree with @ficklegreendice that it is a timing thing that is clearly stated on the cards. Think of it like this (of course I could be stirring up another can of worms here but...)

Omega Ace says "When attacking, you may spend a focus token and a target lock you have on the defender to change all of your results to Critical Hit results."

Targeting Synchronizer Says "When a friendly ship at Range 1-2 is attacking a ship you have locked, the friendly ship treats the 'ATTACK (TARGET LOCK):' header as 'ATTACK:'. If a game effect instructs that ship to spend a target lock, it may spend your target lock instead."

Now my understanding is that because Omega Ace specifically says a target lock "you" have on the defender this means that Omega Ace cannot use TS to turn all results to Crits. Same as OL can't use it to activate his Pilot ability, however if I want to use the TS target lock to reroll dice that Omega Ace rolled then I can do that. (although if you have a tl and a focus why would you since you can just spend them and turn the dice to crits)

I could be wrong here but to me this is a clear distinction on the card text. With MM and EM there is no distinct wording to say anything other than the way @ficklegreendice has interpreted it.

EM says "When you equip this card, place 1 ordnance token on each equipped Torpedoes, Missiles, and Bomb Upgrade card. When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead."

So based on this wording we as a community have used it to give ourselves an extra whatever we equip, i.e. 2 proton torpedoes, 2 cluster mines etc. Each card specifically states to discard the card to use the munition.

Cluster Mines says. "ACTION: Discard this card to drop 1 cluster mine token set.

When a ship's base or maneuver template overlaps a cluster mine token, that token detonates."

MM says " During setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards. Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships."

I guess the hiccup is the phase any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards. However if you only can equip one Bomb upgrade card because you only have one Bomb slot then you can only discard one bomb card. This is where EM comes in, you are instructed to discard a bomb upgrade card, EM says wait a minute you can discard the token instead.

So based on that the logic then goes to ships that can carry more than one Bomb Upgrade, The way MM reads to me is that now you have a decision to make, do I drop 2 sets of clusters or do I drop just one set.

No where in the wording do I read Go ahead and drop all 4 because you have EM equipped you now have 4 bomb upgrade cards, no you only have 2 EM just lets you discard the token instead of the card so you have a second Bomb to use later.

Sorry for the wall of text. Let the flaming begin.

ALSO ALL HAIL THE GUNBOAT

????????????????????????????????

the fire rises.

7 minutes ago, smccaughan said:

MM says " During setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards. Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships."

I guess the hiccup is the phase any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards. However if you only can equip one Bomb upgrade card because you only have one Bomb slot then you can only discard one bomb card. This is where EM comes in, you are instructed to discard a bomb upgrade card, EM says wait a minute you can discard the token instead.

So based on that the logic then goes to ships that can carry more than one Bomb Upgrade, The way MM reads to me is that now you have a decision to make, do I drop 2 sets of clusters or do I drop just one set.

For me, the hiccup is "any number." Which, for me means: Do I have a bomb upgrade card? Yep. O, wait, EM lets me use a token. Begin again. Do I have a bomb upgrade card? Yep. O, wait, EM lets me use a token. Begin again. Do I have a bomb upgrade card? Yep. Discard bomb upgrade card. Begin again. Do I have a bomb upgrade card? Yep. Discard bomb upgrade card. Any number = 4.

9 minutes ago, Killerardvark said:

Woe woe woe... you're pretendology? (not arguing the word, I love made up words)

If we're going that route, minefield mapper is what? You mapping out a minefield. Has nothing to do with deploying them. "But what if he was the one who got there first and mapped the minefield by putting them there?!?!" Then the other group of ships wouldn't have been able to be there so they couldn't also have minefield mapper, nor should their ships have any bearing on where the mines get deployed and so on and so forth and other thematic arguments!!!!

I'm completely ok with making it only the number of cards you have available because it then puts a hard cap on the number of bombs that can be on the battlefield to start the game. It's a balance thing at that point for me.

Totally agree it is a balance thing. But, to get back to the OP, no one is using MM because of FAQ fears and thus the card is not getting any post-playtest playtest to see how it impacts the game.

Does 4 sets of Cluster Mines from a TIE Punisher ruin the game? Or does it put that ship on game tables?? Right now, we have no idea.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

For me, the hiccup is "any number." Which, for me means: Do I have a bomb upgrade card? Yep. O, wait, EM lets me use a token. Begin again. Do I have a bomb upgrade card? Yep. O, wait, EM lets me use a token. Begin again. Do I have a bomb upgrade card? Yep. Discard bomb upgrade card. Begin again. Do I have a bomb upgrade card? Yep. Discard bomb upgrade card. Any number = 4.

Totally agree it is a balance thing. But, to get back to the OP, no one is using MM because of FAQ fears and thus the card is not getting any post-playtest playtest to see how it impacts the game.

Does 4 sets of Cluster Mines from a TIE Punisher ruin the game? Or does it put that ship on game tables?? Right now, we have no idea.

I can respect this. I even understand the thought however i disagree. I will leave it at that as well and will agree to disagree and all we can do now is wait on an FAQ.

The actual workings of mapper are pretty clear if you read the rules. That being said, I think most of the confusion is coming from RAW vs RAI. Did FFG intend to allow munitions tokens to work or not? With the text that they wrote it does not, but this would certainly not be the first time they changed card text to make it work how they intended vs how they wrote it, even if it was working fine and worded clearly before.

1 minute ago, smccaughan said:

I can respect this. I even understand the thought however i disagree. I will leave it at that as well and will agree to disagree and all we can do now is wait on an FAQ.

It is very much a thought process issue.

In my argument, I process the action as a series of events. Discard, reassess, discard, reassess, etc. Sorta like the stack in MtG.

The other way is to process it as a single action: Assess number of cards. Cards = 2. EM = use a token instead. Done.

I would have to say that a lot of people have thought process #1, even if it is against the RAW.

"FFG we don't hate you"

Speak for yourself.

2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

It is very much a thought process issue.

In my argument, I process the action as a series of events. Discard, reassess, discard, reassess, etc. Sorta like the stack in MtG.

The other way is to process it as a single action: Assess number of cards. Cards = 2. EM = use a token instead. Done.

I would have to say that a lot of people have thought process #1, even if it is against the RAW.

I can see this argument, and even understand how it would work. I just think that thought process #2 is the way it is intended to work. I could very well be very wrong, and I will be the first to sing from the rooftops when I am if I am.