On 10/14/2017 at 10:05 AM, Talamare said:That's not really a great example...
There exist more reasonable Tournament lists that don't require a Huge Ship and Both Core Sets.
More realistically we are talking about 1 Core Set for $40, 3 Small Ships for $15 each, and 1 Large Ship for $30. ~$115
But not all those small ship expansions may have the necessary upgrade cards you need. I used Han shopped first for the calculations.
https://randolphw.github.io/han-shopped-first/
All they need (and I've said this multiple times) is to print the map on a double folded colored piece of paper with the scenarios printed on the paper. The campaign stuff could be on the back. One extra sheet of paper and you get rid of 60+% of the cardboard and the need for a core box ( rules are online, you could have a cheap skirmish only starter box with dice and a few figures ) and the game would be open to anyone at any price point. The most you would need is 4 clamshells and borrow some dice, you'd have which ever guys you purchased, at least 8 scenarios plus the ones your opponent brought and if you want to change any of that, buy one more clamshell and you get new figures and command cards and maps, if something happens to your map you have to replace a $10-15 set not a $100 set. No building silly puzzles with a magnifying glass with mistakes in it, etc
I was introduced to IA through skirmish. My friends who introduced me to it were also introduced through skirmish; they don’t even like campaign. I’m surprised that more people don’t enjoy skirmishes. I personally love both, but skirmish much more. The mat/tile dilemma makes sense to me: mats, being much cheaper and easier to obtain and set up, should be used in competitive play. The set-up time for the tiles really takes a chunk out of total play time.
For me one reason skirmish stalls at taking off is the number of deployment and command cards given in the sets . I play campaign with my kids and group and have most expansions but when it come down to command cards then we can't build two tourney level lists . So after owning this 2 year have only play skirmish once against an opponent .
Can't see the reason FfG limits cards in sets past maximising profits from multiple purchases. Never know a game that requires 2 set. Shame as would have loved to play more skirmish and also the main reason I haven't looked into some other FFG miniature games that look great
6 hours ago, gingapanda said:Can't see the reason FfG limits cards in sets past maximising profits from multiple purchases. Never know a game that requires 2 set.
Well... there are some FFG card games that 'require' 3 sets for competetive play
10 hours ago, Jarema said:Well... there are some FFG card games that 'require' 3 sets for competetive play
You mean all of them?
That's a bit of an overstatement. You probably need 2x Core for a game like Netrunner (only Desperado was worth the third core), but all other expansions give you enough to play with - unlike IA where every expansion kinda gives you too little.
This has been hurting IA skirmish since day 1.. the fact they never released a "skirmish starter pack" has been crippling the playerbase all along.
The reason for this would be that skirmish was an after thought, the game was already designed when they decided to add skirmish. I believe it came about when they were testing figures up against Probe Droids (who were the original bench mark?) and thought wow this is pretty fun, building lists and all. So it snowballed from there.
Unfortunately IA skirmish is heavily scrutinized because it doesn't have that actual 'open terrain' concept, but it is in fact a very well designed and highly entertaining system. I've tried running Skirmish demos at my LGS multiple times, everyone loves it, they love the idea of using iconic characters, but they just don't want to pay the price for half of a game. Then they say something like, well how do I get my friends to buy it if we all end up having to buy every single expansion but only actually needing one copy to play the campaign?
Group of 5 friends end up with a useless campaign core and 4 boxed expansions, its really hard to argue that. And the fact that certain skirmish cards/figures are only available through those expansions means if they want to enjoy the full wide range of list building they need to buy it all, even if they never plan to play a campaign game. So .... ya that really sucks, and it is the main reason why this game has a very limited playerbase.
I think with Legion coming out now anyone that is looking to scratch that player vs player itch will go that route instead, because why not? Yes the systems are different but the average person doesn't understand that, they just see a Star Wars themed skirmish game that doesn't require them to buy these 'useless' campaign components.
So this isn't a IA SKIRMISH IS DOOMED !!! post, those who play the game will continue to play it and the people who buy campaign first and discover skirmish will continue to come about, as it has always been, but as far as attracting a wide range of new players goes.. I think FFG shot themselves in the foot in this regard with their current business model and then Legion cut our legs out from under neath us by being the new 'easy buy' for Star Wars minis combat. If my only thought is to play skirmish and I am standing at my LGS with Legion and IA cores in my hands, which route would you go? Campaign? Who cares about that, I want to skirmish, why pay money for something I won't ever use?
I did a poll on here a while ago, I don't care to try and dig the thread up but the majority of players who play skirmish bought the game for the campaign and then discovered skirmish. So the skirmish will survive in its very limited player base size on this alone.
Edited by FrogTrigger20 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:This has been hurting IA skirmish since day 1.. the fact they never released a "skirmish starter pack" has been crippling the playerbase all along.
The reason for this would be that skirmish was an after thought, the game was already designed when they decided to add skirmish. I believe it came about when they were testing figures up against Probe Droids (who were the original bench mark?) and thought wow this is pretty fun, building lists and all. So it snowballed from there.
Unfortunately IA skirmish is heavily scrutinized because it doesn't have that actual 'open terrain' concept, but it is in fact a very well designed and highly entertaining system. I've tried running Skirmish demos at my LGS multiple times, everyone loves it, they love the idea of using iconic characters, but they just don't want to pay the price for half of a game. Then they say something like, well how do I get my friends to buy it if we all end up having to buy every single expansion but only actually needing one copy to play the campaign?
Why does something need open terrain? I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just wondering why people feel that way. As you said, IA is a well designed system for squad level combat. I actually lament the introduction of skirmish, because IA started going the route of Star Wars Miniatures, which is, having to include "iconic" figures because people wanted their pet teams, including me. I think because of skirmish we have characters we otherwise wouldn't have had if it has remained a campaign game. I think Legion is a good idea. I won't play it, and i wish it would have come out a long time ago and used shared miniatures with IA, but divergent rules, because I want skirmish players to have the game they want.
As some will point out, rightly, I don't have to buy the characters I don't want to play, and that is true, and I don't, but I feel for the skirmish players who are pouring all this money into having competitive teams. And, because I think without it, the campaign would have evolved differently. For instance I don't think there wouldn't be as many rules changes as their have been had balancing skirmish not been an issue.
Edited by RikaloniusI've seen a ton of people posting the new core sets they got for Christmas (some on here, but especially on the Facebook groups).
It's so great to see new people getting into this game. Welcome, anyone who happens to stop be here, too! 
I bought IA for campaign, and I still haven't so much as tried skirmish; I will eventually, but it just hasn't called to me, yet.
17 hours ago, MarekMandalore said:I bought IA for campaign, and I still haven't so much as tried skirmish; I will eventually, but it just hasn't called to me, yet.
Try it. I've only played a couple of times but it was a blast.
Edited by The Cocky RoosterOn 10/11/2017 at 4:03 PM, kingargyle said:
Honestly, if somebody wanted to run a competitive X-Wing list you are looking at a similar price entry point. Consider the Fair Ship Rebel list.
You are looking at needing the following to run the list:
- original core set - $39.95
- force awakens core set - $39.95
- rebel transport expansion pack - $59.95
- heroes of the resistance expansion pack - $39.95
- arc-170 expansion - $19.95
- sabine's tie fighter - $14.95
This adds up to about $214.70 for a competitive skirmish list. This assumes paying retail price.
If we look at Imperial Assault. The largest up front cost is the Core Set Box. A competitive list for Imperial Assault can be built using the following expansions:
- Core Set - $99
- Jabbas Realm - is $60.
So yes, $160 for the map tiles. Add in a few expansions for figures, which I'll argue are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY less expensive than X-Wing. And you maybe coming close to what It costs for a good competitive list of X-Wing without adding in play mats, acrylic maneuver templates, etc.
So let's add the cost of the 3 tournament maps that are currently in rotation.
- In rotation 3 x Skirmish Maps @ $24.95 a piece = $75 (rounded up)
So this brings us to $235. Not too far off from the $214.70 for X-Wing to get a current competitive meta list.
You talk about competative lists, like that is what is needed to break into the game and enjoy it... X-Wing can be expensive if you want to collect everything, or competitive with the current meta, but if you just want to fly ships about? Ok, you need the force awakens core set for the rules etc, and that only really provides a taster of the game. However, you can get a playable legal 100 point list for only a little bit more. And then you can expand gradually.
Now, saying you want to play Imperial Assault, even if you are not going to do it at events you need to get the core set to even play... welp, and if you want to play in official events even more so.
However, it doesn't effect me too much, as the main reason I got the game was for the campaign, so...
Edited by borithan4 hours ago, borithan said:You talk about competative lists, like that is what is needed to break into the game and enjoy it... X-Wing can be expensive if you want to collect everything, or competitive with the current meta, but if you just want to fly ships about? Ok, you need the force awakens core set for the rules etc, and that only really provides a taster of the game. However, you can get a playable legal 100 point list for only a little bit more. And then you can expand gradually.
Now, saying you want to play Imperial Assault, even if you are not going to do it at events you need to get the core set to even play... welp, and if you want to play in official events even more so.
However, it doesn't effect me too much, as the main reason I got the game was for the campaign, so...
Price is one of the biggest fallacies about IA that everyone seems to bring up because of one thing: sticker shock. I always HIGHLY encourage anyone who asks to look past the sticker shock and do some math. IA is competitively priced to match X-Wing and it beats it in the long run. A complete collection of X-Wing is going to set you back a lot more than a complete collection of IA. I've posted this before. I went to each of the games' respective pages on FFG and added together one of every unit. Here's the result (rounded to the whole number, of course):
IA: One core, one extra set of dice, one of each expansion and ally/villain pack, and one skirmish mat: $826 ($976 with all the other skirmish maps)
X-Wing: One of each core set, one of each ship including epic ships, and one mat: $1,745 ($1,355 without epic ships)
It excludes a lot of factors like duplicates, acrylic tokens, paint, and other luxury items. I did that for a better 1 to 1 comparison. But even comparing both games for just getting into them:
IA: $100 for the core. You get quite a bit of material and everything you need to play a campaign and the app, the main focus of the game.
X-Wing: $40 core. Much better and you can fly around a bit... until you realize you need more ships to fill out 100 point lists. So you go and buy a second core and a 3rd Rebel ship. You could alternatively buy a couple different ships to compliment the X-Wing and/or a couple more TIEs for a swarm. Maybe a large-base ship for some flavor. It's $60 to get 2 blisters and 1 large expansion on top of the core. It's also $55 to get a second core and 1 blister for a 3rd Rebel ship. You're already in the ballpark and even matching the price tag of the IA core. Pay that again in either case to expand for more variety in X-Wing and you could've paid for the first expansion in IA or multiple blisters to fill out your IA core.
Talking strictly price and not including value, the style of game, people's tastes, etc., IA is competitive to start and definitely cheaper in the long run. The biggest barrier people run into is that sticker shock. They see the IA $100 core and $60 expansions next to X-Wing's $40 core, $15 blisters and $30 expansions and think it's a no-brainer. Imo (cause I've done it), X-Wing is a black hole that sucks in your money with it's "$15 here and $30 here" price structure. As Ackbar said, "IT'S A TRAP!"
And ultimately, did we only buy one core and a few ships for X-Wing or did we start collecting more when we realized we wanted different lists, duplicates of the same ship to fly squadrons, and/or needed those upgrade cards? Did we buy a core IA and said we would hold off on expansions and blisters or did we want more once that first campaign ended? I would tell anyone to really consider how far down the rabbit hole they want to go before investing in X-Wing or IA. The odds are VERY likely that one will keep buying regardless of how soft the entry and the final bill may not be what they expect or want to pay.
3 minutes ago, The Archangel said:Price is one of the biggest fallacies about IA that everyone seems to bring up because of one thing: sticker shock. I always HIGHLY encourage anyone who asks to look past the sticker shock and do some math. IA is competitively priced to match X-Wing and it beats it in the long run. A complete collection of X-Wing is going to set you back a lot more than a complete collection of IA. I've posted this before. I went to each of the games' respective pages on FFG and added together one of every unit. Here's the result (rounded to the whole number, of course):
IA: One core, one extra set of dice, one of each expansion and ally/villain pack, and one skirmish mat: $826 ($976 with all the other skirmish maps)
X-Wing: One of each core set, one of each ship including epic ships, and one mat: $1,745 ($1,355 without epic ships)
It excludes a lot of factors like duplicates, acrylic tokens, paint, and other luxury items. I did that for a better 1 to 1 comparison. But even comparing both games for just getting into them:
IA: $100 for the core. You get quite a bit of material and everything you need to play a campaign and the app, the main focus of the game.
X-Wing: $40 core. Much better and you can fly around a bit... until you realize you need more ships to fill out 100 point lists. So you go and buy a second core and a 3rd Rebel ship. You could alternatively buy a couple different ships to compliment the X-Wing and/or a couple more TIEs for a swarm. Maybe a large-base ship for some flavor. It's $60 to get 2 blisters and 1 large expansion on top of the core. It's also $55 to get a second core and 1 blister for a 3rd Rebel ship. You're already in the ballpark and even matching the price tag of the IA core. Pay that again in either case to expand for more variety in X-Wing and you could've paid for the first expansion in IA or multiple blisters to fill out your IA core.
Talking strictly price and not including value, the style of game, people's tastes, etc., IA is competitive to start and definitely cheaper in the long run. The biggest barrier people run into is that sticker shock. They see the IA $100 core and $60 expansions next to X-Wing's $40 core, $15 blisters and $30 expansions and think it's a no-brainer. Imo (cause I've done it), X-Wing is a black hole that sucks in your money with it's "$15 here and $30 here" price structure. As Ackbar said, "IT'S A TRAP!"
And ultimately, did we only buy one core and a few ships for X-Wing or did we start collecting more when we realized we wanted different lists, duplicates of the same ship to fly squadrons, and/or needed those upgrade cards? Did we buy a core IA and said we would hold off on expansions and blisters or did we want more once that first campaign ended? I would tell anyone to really consider how far down the rabbit hole they want to go before investing in X-Wing or IA. The odds are VERY likely that one will keep buying regardless of how soft the entry and the final bill may not be what they expect or want to pay.
Absolutely agreed with everything here.
I do think that one attractive thing IA lacks that X-Wing has, though, is that it is a bit easier to buy exactly what you want. Let's say you want to run an entirely B-Wing squadron, because B-Wings are awesome (at least in the movies, idk about the game)! You're gonna pretty much have to take the burn on the core set, but once you're in you can start buying those B-Wings. Or, if you want, you can throw in the Ghost and some Y-Wings, or a K-Wing or E-Wing. Basically, you can but whatever you want.
Let's say you're running IA. In a worst case scenario, let's say you're looking at a list that includes some gamorreans, HKs, a clawdite, Tusken raiders, and an ugnaught (probably not a great list, and maybe not even possible, but stick with me). You'd have to buy every single boxed expansion to get that stuff- expensive, yes, though at least you're getting a lot of other cool stuff, albeit stuff you may not have even wanted.
And if, for instance, you wanted more of one of those units than the box contained? Buy another, I guess!
I can't complain, because I play for campaign and I love how IA does its releases. I'm one of those "completionist" players who wants at least one of everything- there's a good reason I'm sticking far away from X-Wing, because that would be a nightmare! But I think it could be a pretty big problem for skirmish players who would prefer a more modular setup like X-Wing has.
2 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:I'm one of those "completionist" players who wants at least one of everything- there's a good reason I'm sticking far away from X-Wing, because that would be a nightmare! But I think it could be a pretty big problem for skirmish players who would prefer a more modular setup like X-Wing has.
This is why people kinda hit a nerve with me when they mention price. X-Wing was my introduction into the tabletop gaming world. I'm also a "completionist" and in my ignorance tried to do it for X-Wing while buying duplicates. Never finished my collection and I can personally vouch it is indeed a nightmare. It's just amazing how fast those $15/$30 purchases add up even if you're not going for a complete collection. That's why I'm a big advocate of telling people to look past the sticker prices and really think about the overall investment. Btw, anybody want to buy an incomplete X-Wing collection? 
I agree with you on the skirmish issue. It's definitely annoying having to buy whole big box expansions just to get one unit or their duplicates. Obviously a byproduct of FFG throwing in skirmish at the last minute. A person could make it work by borrowing missing units like X-Wingers do for cards. It's certainly a horse of a different color for competitive skirmish though.
I don't play X-Wing. I play miniature wargames of all sorts though. You name it I've probably tried it. I think I've painted around 20 armies and probably 12 skirmish forces in my life. On the whole, miniatures is actually a very cheap hobby compared to most. Among miniatures, $100 is a cheap buy-in. People who only play card games, or small boardgames, will find IA to be very pricey. It's not. Considering that argument you also "need" the tiles from Jabba's Realm now, $160 is also a cheap buy-in. $160 won't even get you going in a lot of systems. Certainly not popular ones like Warhammer.
One out of two members of a gaming group needs a core set. Honestly, by the time you buy enough clampacks to make an army, you are getting over halfway to buying your own core set, so a little budgeting and delayed gratification would go a long way. If you can afford clampacks (which are good cost, but terrible value) you can afford the amazing value that is the core set and eventually boxed expansions. If you are on a tight budget, you can play this game without buying anything but boxed sets (which are a great plastic-to-dollar ratio) and make your own skirmish maps. Those $10, $15 and $20 clampacks add up fast and you won't see much plastic for your money.
Imperial Assault is cheap. It's cheap to get into skirmish. If you can't afford a competitive list for this game, you also can't afford to travel to big tournaments. Since you can't make it to tournaments, and since even if you can it's only a game, you should be fine with nothing but a core set, and additional models as you fancy them.
Like I said before. Hasbro got the price point for D20 pre-painted 28mm Star Wars miniatures gaming all the way down to $9.99, and it didn't help recruitment in local stores one iota. You've either got a bunch of grown men who want to push little Star Wars dolls around a table in your town, or you don't.
Edited by TauntaunScoutThe wotc game was not great.
21 minutes ago, TylerTT said:The wotc game was not great.
No it was not. But it was a time when there was a lot less to pick from than there is now.
On 1/12/2018 at 4:57 PM, The Archangel said:Price is one of the biggest fallacies about IA that everyone seems to bring up because of one thing: sticker shock. I always HIGHLY encourage anyone who asks to look past the sticker shock and do some math. IA is competitively priced to match X-Wing and it beats it in the long run. A complete collection of X-Wing is going to set you back a lot more than a complete collection of IA. I've posted this before. I went to each of the games' respective pages on FFG and added together one of every unit. Here's the result (rounded to the whole number, of course):
IA: One core, one extra set of dice, one of each expansion and ally/villain pack, and one skirmish mat: $826 ($976 with all the other skirmish maps)
X-Wing: One of each core set, one of each ship including epic ships, and one mat: $1,745 ($1,355 without epic ships)
It excludes a lot of factors like duplicates, acrylic tokens, paint, and other luxury items. I did that for a better 1 to 1 comparison. But even comparing both games for just getting into them:
IA: $100 for the core. You get quite a bit of material and everything you need to play a campaign and the app, the main focus of the game.
X-Wing: $40 core. Much better and you can fly around a bit... until you realize you need more ships to fill out 100 point lists. So you go and buy a second core and a 3rd Rebel ship. You could alternatively buy a couple different ships to compliment the X-Wing and/or a couple more TIEs for a swarm. Maybe a large-base ship for some flavor. It's $60 to get 2 blisters and 1 large expansion on top of the core. It's also $55 to get a second core and 1 blister for a 3rd Rebel ship. You're already in the ballpark and even matching the price tag of the IA core. Pay that again in either case to expand for more variety in X-Wing and you could've paid for the first expansion in IA or multiple blisters to fill out your IA core.
Oh, at no point did I say that if you get a complete collection you are going to end up cheaper. However, the entry point is cheaper for X-wing than Imperial Assault skirmish. I could get into playing X-Wing with legal lists for... about £80. Yes, there wouldn't be much choice in your list, and you would have no flexibility, but I can play the game "legally" and get good fun out of it. I can then use that as a basis for expanding for a little more freedom in your lists. Yes, a full collection is extortionately expensive, but you don't need a whole collection. To make a competitive list does cost more, as you will need to buy different ships, and some ships just for cards that you need, so at this point you may start to compare to the IA break in point, but if you don't care about competitiveness and just want to play, it isn't expensive at all. At this point, being a completionist for X-Wing is just insane (I gave up a long time ago... wave 3 I think?).
Compared to IA, where the break in point is the cost of the core set, plus either each of the boxed expansions or a set of the current skirmish maps. At the very minimum this is... what, £160? and that would only let you use miniatures from the core set... no, wait, you need the cards for the missions, so also whatever expansions that have the current cycle of maps in, so that's another... we'll say £30. Nearly £200 to break in (more if you want more flexibility and or competitiveness).
Of course, if you just buy the IA core set you are already getting the campaign, which is the main part of the game, and fun in of itself.
The mission cards come with the skirmish playmats. So if you buy those, you don't need to buy the others. Also, honestly, you don't need the maps to go to your first couple of tourneys. So you can get by with just a Core set for your first couple of plays and small scale tourneys.
On 1/15/2018 at 5:15 AM, aermet69 said:The mission cards come with the skirmish playmats. So if you buy those, you don't need to buy the others. Also, honestly, you don't need the maps to go to your first couple of tourneys. So you can get by with just a Core set for your first couple of plays and small scale tourneys.
And, this is key, most players (of any game) are not tournament players. The core set is all you need. At my suggestion an old high school friend of mine got just the core set and had lots of fun playing with just him and his kids. Imperial Assault might be the best $100 I could tell someone to spend on head to head sci-fi miniature gaming at this juncture. The campaign stuff would be icing on the cake.
On 1/12/2018 at 8:48 PM, TylerTT said:The wotc game was not great.
Rebel Storm was a decent game. It was a nice, elegant, fast system. The problem is that it got convoluted pretty quickly. Instead of defense representing all your defensive capability, with each new iteration you'd have different abilities to drag out the roll because of people's preconceived biases of what a character should or should not be able to do. So between double attack + twin attack against the various saving throws and force points run amok, it got to the point that a single round of combat became tedious. Cards became packed with special abilities that represented every moment of the character's existence in the lore. And worse that all that, by the end, the miniatures went from pretty good quality sculpts to just awful lumps of plastic painted to somewhat resemble the character in question.