1 minute ago, Maturin said:

They should be targeting 40k players - a huge population. The games have similar play lengths, and strategic/tactical thinking requirements.

And in this comparison, Armada wins the cost issue hands down.

I was under the impression thats what Legion is all about.

Just now, Darth Sanguis said:

I was under the impression thats what Legion is all about.

Yeah, but there's no cool spaceships in Legion! ;P

I want Armada focused-marketing trying to penetrate the 40k world!

1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I was under the impression thats what Legion is all about.

...From a certain point of view...

In seriousness, kinda . Legion is definitely directly marketing to that crowd, or at least, those who would associate with that crowd.

Armada should , but doesn't right now.

4 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Yeah, but there's no cool spaceships in Legion! ;P

I want Armada focused-marketing trying to penetrate the 40k world!

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

...From a certain point of view...

In seriousness, kinda . Legion is definitely directly marketing to that crowd, or at least, those who would associate with that crowd.

Armada should , but doesn't right now.

From what I've seen Armada just isn't expansive enough for 40K players. Our group lost 3 players last year to 40K. Sold all their stuff to buy into it. We've had a few 40K guys check out the game at a local store but ultimately they seem a little unmoved. Like Armada is TTWG lite...

Just now, Darth Sanguis said:

From what I've seen Armada just isn't expansive enough for 40K players. Our group lost 3 players last year to 40K. Sold all their stuff to buy into it. We've had a few 40K guys check out the game at a local store but ultimately they seem a little unmoved. Like Armada is TTWG lite...

Y'see, that's where I make my argument that they're not really the type of people suited for it.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

Y'see, that's where I make my argument that they're not really the type of people suited for it.

40K players not suited for Armada?

Just now, Darth Sanguis said:

40K players not suited for Armada?

Those players.

To accept Armada is to accept a certain amount of Stability, and to have a requisite amount of Patience.

Not only in the game, but in the gameplay itself... It lends itself towards minds which enjoy the idea, or the concept, of setting a plan in motion and stroking ones beard or chin as it slowly unfolds, for better or worse, before them. With little you can do to compensate for a bad plan but barge your way through on luck alone.

It is not a game of snap, rash decisions. It is not a game of expecting there to be everything all at once. It is not a game of minimal discrepencies.

That sets it apart from most other games of the era. Which are generally about snap decisions, or decision change events.

Before most other things, I strongly believe the themes for Armada is Tempo and Inertia . The very fact that you have to actively do something in order to change speed shows that Intertia aspect that is often so lacking from games and systems.

But then, I'm pretty biased. I've worked hard to generate and encourage the group we have here in Hothgary, and honestly, I can only take part of the credit for it.

Most of the time, when I hear things like "its boring", "its slow", "its not expansive enough"... My first thought echoes "Go then, we don't serve your kind here... You'll have to wait outside."

Becuase I'd rather have people who enjoy the game for the game as opponents, rather than someone roped in who is going through the motions.

I very much agree with what @Drasnighta says in terms of the types of people who will enjoy Armada.

But out where do we find those types of players, and how do we get them to try this game that's going to be perfectly suited to them? Lowering the entry cost is clearly one way. Another is mining the games that may have a subset of players amenable to Armada-think....such as 40k.

I would suggest Firestorm Armada players, etc but they have even smaller populations than we do!

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

It lends itself towards minds which enjoy the idea, or the concept, of setting a plan in motion and stroking ones beard or chin as it slowly unfolds, for better or worse, before them. With little you can do to compensate for a bad plan but barge your way through on luck alone.

Well said.

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Before most other things, I strongly believe the themes for Armada is Tempo and Inertia .

I hadn't really given that any thought, but I'd have to agree, completely.

5 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

But then, I'm pretty biased. I've worked hard to generate and encourage the group we have here in Hothgary, and honestly, I can only take part of the credit for it.

Most of the time, when I hear things like "its boring", "its slow", "its not expansive enough"... My first thought echoes "Go then, we don't serve your kind here... You'll have to wait outside."

Becuase I'd rather have people who enjoy the game for the game as opponents, rather than someone roped in who is going through the motions.

I definitely agree with this. Two of the players we lost to 40K rarely ever invested time or real thought into what they were doing, most of the time they seemed uninterested in the game as it was happening. Definitely not the most challenging or even entertaining mindset to play against. I've put a TONNE of effort into cultivating our local group, I've TO'd tournaments I wanted to play in, done all the outreach for the LGS, run demos, shared ships, built fleets, I'll likely even be running the regional event, even though I have a bye and wanted to play, so I get the bias. I'm happy to say all our players currently are deeply interested, no one just "goes through the motions" anymore.

11 minutes ago, Maturin said:

@Drasnighta

I would suggest Firestorm Armada players, etc but they have even smaller populations than we do!

God I love that game. Could not get it started a my old flgs (God did I try bought 2 fleets n everything). I found it was much easier to get ppl to try Armada over firestorm though. Star wars is a huge pull.

Mini gaming is pretty cheap by any standard of cost.

But like anyone, the costs are relative. I don’t prefer to put the cost of the game at the starter, but at how much it’s going to realistically cost you to get into and play a competitive tournament.

With Armada that is going to be around $220-$250.

That is extremely cheap comparted to Warmachine/Hordes, they I’d put at $450-$600. GW is around $500-$1500 as its costs can be enormous.

Xwing is cheaper, but it gets most expensive. That should be a factor.

I'm a new convert to Armada. Cost was one factor keeping me away from the game since it was launched, but it wasn't the only one. The other things holding me back were breadth of the factions, game length, and mindspace.

I didn't really get into X-wing until wave 6 either because when I tried it around wave 2 there just wasn't that much to it as I saw it. Coming from 40k, it felt like "tastes great, less filling." Later on I found out about swarms and really got into X-wing.

After playing x-wing for a while, I got used to the shorter games and enjoyed being able to get more games in one session. Even though I knew Armada wouldn't take any longer than 40k did, I didn't really want to go back to longer games.

The last factor was simply that I was totally focused on x-wing and did not want to devote any mental energy to a new system.

So what pushed me over the hump to finally get into Armada? A couple of locals got out and had collections or remnants of collections I could grab relatively cheaply, the game has enough content now at wave 6 to hold my interest, and I am growing disillusioned with the state of scumtastic x-wing.

1 hour ago, Noosh said:

God I love that game. Could not get it started a my old flgs (God did I try bought 2 fleets n everything). I found it was much easier to get ppl to try Armada over firestorm though. Star wars is a huge pull.

Firestorm and spartan games as a whole died at the beginning of this month. While the rights have been bought by another company now would be a great time to tempt those players over to the dark side.

6 hours ago, MIheatplaya25 said:

Us early adopters benefited from the tournament point max being 300 until wave 2. That helped with not needing to spend as much early on. Does nothing for newbies coming into the game now though. I think even if the cost upfront was similar, X-wing would still be more popular. It is just much easier to pick up and play and takes way less table space. That's alright though, I much prefer the crowd that plays Armada. X-wing drew in too people with sour attitudes.

Absolutely agree. Armada seems to attract a more mature crowd with better manners. I do occasionally post on the X Wing forum but some of the behaviour there over the years has been disgraceful. Speaking as a widower myself, when somebody posted "so what if the guy's wife died" about somebody they disagreed with, and everyone piled in to back the miscreant up and drive the victim from the forum, that was the low point for me. Would they have said it to his face all these angry twenty Something year olds? I very much doubt it! Cyber bullying is an issue I feel very strongly about and there is often something deeply cliquey and unpleasant about FFG's X Wing forum, I've yet to come across that here.

8 hours ago, MIheatplaya25 said:

Us early adopters benefited from the tournament point max being 300 until wave 2. That helped with not needing to spend as much early on. Does nothing for newbies coming into the game now though. I think even if the cost upfront was similar, X-wing would still be more popular. It is just much easier to pick up and play and takes way less table space. That's alright though, I much prefer the crowd that plays Armada. X-wing drew in too people with sour attitudes.

Interesting, at least in my local group X-wing is very dead, most have sold off all there stuff or are actively trying to do so right now (but no one wants any X-wing stuff here). On the other hand our armada group is looking to pick up new players who just bought stuff and are looking for a group to play with.

The entry cost is maybe not the cheapiest for a core set (125-150$ CAD), but this game is the best tabletop game that I ever played.

Could this bring more player to the game, I'm not so sure about this. For all my friend who tried the game, not many where interest to continue. Not because of the price but because of the fact that this game is not for every kind of player. It's like playing chest, not for every one

Could this game be more cheap? Why not, it could be good for my wallet.

I already spent around 2000$ CAD for my 2 fleets (Reb's and Imp's), but... every penny worth it!!!

Well, I am moving to Tucson in a few months so maybe I can bolster the armada ranks!

9 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

It lends itself towards minds which enjoy the idea, or the concept, of setting a plan in motion and stroking ones beard or chin as it slowly unfolds, for better or worse, before them. With little you can do to compensate for a bad plan but barge your way through on luck alone.

That's one of the things that brought me to the game, and something I do like about it...

...but at times, it can definitely be frustrating, and I can see how a new player might be strongly turned off by it.

I mean, setting a plan in motion is SO many parts - not just your fleet and objective selection, but then deployment being probably a full third of your victory or loss, and the in-game maneuvering just icing on the cake. It's happened far more than once where you go into the game with a plan for your list and objectives, and the enemy has theirs, and by halfway through the second turn it becomes clear the enemy plan will win. And now you've still got another hour and a half to slog through with defeat inevitable, and the only question being the margin of it.

That's...not a great feeling.

46 minutes ago, xanderf said:

That's one of the things that brought me to the game, and something I do like about it...

...but at times, it can definitely be frustrating, and I can see how a new player might be strongly turned off by it.

I mean, setting a plan in motion is SO many parts - not just your fleet and objective selection, but then deployment being probably a full third of your victory or loss, and the in-game maneuvering just icing on the cake. It's happened far more than once where you go into the game with a plan for your list and objectives, and the enemy has theirs, and by halfway through the second turn it becomes clear the enemy plan will win. And now you've still got another hour and a half to slog through with defeat inevitable, and the only question being the margin of it.

That's...not a great feeling.

And that, I feel, as my true elitism shows, is the difference between an “Armada Player” and “Someone who plays Armada”, in essence.

i am a true believer, I only play Armada now. I foster and encourage and openly state that it’s not for everyone, but the occasional plan gone awry you must grind through is not only the great challenge... it is the great lesson. You will not improve until you learn to respect it and pay attention and even pseudo-glorify it a little bit, if not outright enjoy it.

3 hours ago, xanderf said:

That's one of the things that brought me to the game, and something I do like about it...

...but at times, it can definitely be frustrating, and I can see how a new player might be strongly turned off by it.

I mean, setting a plan in motion is SO many parts - not just your fleet and objective selection, but then deployment being probably a full third of your victory or loss, and the in-game maneuvering just icing on the cake. It's happened far more than once where you go into the game with a plan for your list and objectives, and the enemy has theirs, and by halfway through the second turn it becomes clear the enemy plan will win. And now you've still got another hour and a half to slog through with defeat inevitable, and the only question being the margin of it.

That's...not a great feeling.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

And that, I feel, as my true elitism shows, is the difference between an “Armada Player” and “Someone who plays Armada”, in essence.

i am a true believer, I only play Armada now. I foster and encourage and openly state that it’s not for everyone, but the occasional plan gone awry you must grind through is not only the great challenge... it is the great lesson. You will not improve until you learn to respect it and pay attention and even pseudo-glorify it a little bit, if not outright enjoy it.

That was my national tournament. I went with my Demonger fleet to wreck everything. My first two player brought heavy squadron force so I spent most of the timing shooting down them. The first game I could manage to partially ignore those Sloane Aces and destroy Demo and the flag victory. During the second I got just a tiny window to shoot down Mothma Foresigh with Demo. I failed.

But I enjoyed those game. High skilled players for highly intense games. Those game could only be better if were casual.

Hmm.

I played 40k since Rogue Trader days and Warhammer Fantasy since third edition. I've played Flanes of War, Warmahordes.....any number of games. I grew up playing the old Avaln Hill wargames (Third Reich was a favorite of mine). Maybe because of this, the size or length of playtime do not bother me.

I will agree that price point is an issue. I've had several people seem enthusiastic about the game, only to balk when confronted with the starter price point. A few ditched because they couldn't grasp the play flow concept. And yes, I've had players ditch for Xwing, mostly because "I can play five games of Xwing in the time it takes for one Armada game".

Not sure what, if anything can be done to alleviate this. But as far as I'm concerned, Armada is the greatest game ever.

My two Imperial credits, for what it's worth.

The problem with trying to get more people to like the product (or service or idea or anything) is that in order to get new people on board, you either have to keep plugging away and finding the odd few who haven't bought in yet but happily would, or change your product to cater to the interests of those who are intrigued but not satisfied with the current iteration.

Therefore the initial cost of armada is indeed a barrier, but we should be careful in how we envision changing the game to make it more accessible. If you cater to all those varied interests and opinions other have in order to attract them, you will end up with a watered down or mediocre product no one is fully satisfied with or excited by.

This is a critical problem in my professional field (city planning). In the Armada case I think the ideas that are least disruptive, such as faction specific starter packs, are the most likely to be useful. Trying to shorten the play time for instance could easily backfire and cause us to have an over simplified version of the game that lacks the depth we enjoy.

Conversely there are people, myself included, who would love to have more intricate and complex rulesets to better simulate various aspects of Star Wars. But I know that would just kill the broader appeal and I wouldn't be getting any more awesome plastic minis; I can always house rule.

I have to wonder if the high initial price point is actually a positive thing.

I can't throw a stone without hitting someone that's tried and given up on X-wing. You can find the starters in walmarts, targets, and gamestops. Lots of people pick up the game naively thinking it's a full game. The low entry price attracts a lot of people, but then you also have a lot of people just giving up on the game once they learn the actual cost. They play a few games, get interested, start looking at picking up some other expansions and realize that it would cost a fortune. Or they open the box and realize that it's a bit more complicated than they were expecting.

Check Ebay. Armada has 63 results, mostly single expansions (almost all new), almost no collections/lots or used starters. X-wing on the other hand...2835 results. Lots of collections/lots. One guy is selling 4 separate lots of his stuff for almost 2300 total (that's the USED price). The number of used core sets is staggering, and the prices are ridiculous. MSRP of starter is $40, discounted price usually around $32-35. The used ebay prices are in the 27-30 range. There is a starter that is missing the ships for $27. There is a used Y-wing missing tokens and some of it's cards for the low low price of $15 plus $3.60 shipping. How about a new Tie Advanced for only $25 plus $4 shipping! Even better, just found another at $28 + $5! It's a Wave 1 ship that no one uses that retails for $15 and is discounted to around $12 in many places...and it's in stock at almost every place I checked.

The higher entry price means the only people playing the game are actually interested in it. You don't have people selling scraps on ebay or tossing the game away. You don't have people trying to scalp ships that are readily available at retailers for 3x the price. The high entry point means we've kept the rabble out.

From what I've seen, the Armada crowd tend to be more mature, and definitely more mellow. The X-wing crowd contains a lot of younger players, more immature players, and hotheads. On more than one occasion I witnessed situations that nearly ended in table flipping rage quits. I've seen several people banned from stores and competitions. Never witnessed a negative Armada interaction however.

Agreed with what is said with the core set it is hard to get into..

but upkeep is no so bad once you have a good fleet. As stated FFG has done a great job of releasing items that makes older ships good in the Meta like D-Caps for the Vic's, boarding troopers etc etc.

And with the larger ships you only need 1 or 2 in your fleet depending on what you want to do. So per year you are only looking at $200 which is not bad. If you try to maintain both sides maybe like $400 but still pretty good.

As someone that never really gamed in the past and started about 4-5 years ago with X-Wing, I will say there is a perceived high cost with Armada. it is $100 core and then you have to add other ships to be competitive. But after being in Armada for a little bit, it is a lot cheaper than X-Wing and other games. If you look at the secondary market for entry it is even cheaper. I bought a 95% complete at the time, with some doubles and Feldherr foam for about 50% off MSRP. Each ship might be more expensive than X-Wing, but you don't typically have to buy multiples or as many as in X-Wing.