1 hour ago, kmanweiss said:

From what I've seen, the Armada crowd tend to be more mature, and definitely more mellow. The X-wing crowd contains a lot of younger players, more immature players, and hotheads. On more than one occasion I witnessed situations that nearly ended in table flipping rage quits. I've seen several people banned from stores and competitions. Never witnessed a negative Armada interaction however.

Well said. I have younger family that play X-Wing and they burned me out on tournaments because they had to win and would bring winning builds ALWAYS, never "Flew Casual". I have seen rage stories online over X-Wing games. I have seen someone at our local Armada Store Championship win with an illegal build and all of that played were "well crap we should have caught that, we'll do better next time", those that played were asked what action they wanted to take and everyone said nothing. If this happened at our local X-Wing there would have been blood.

23 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is why I think it's important for established players at this point to loan out ships and upgrades as needed to newer players while they get established, and to make that policy very clear to anybody considering buying in. We all know that, once you start playing the game, it's only a matter of time before the issue shifts from "do I have enough to complete a fleet" to "how am I going to store and transport all of this crap??", but you have to make it as easy as possible for new players to get over that initial hump.

I made a point of buying both factions so I could support opponents who had absolutely nothing. I'm happy to provide the entirety of my opponent's fleet every single game, as long as they're emotionally 'bought in' to the game (and so will do all the kind of list building that's needed to properly be involved in the game at a strategic level). ****, at this point, I've easily got enough ships to run 6 or more fleets (Mostly Rebel, though, and i'd be short of the core components). It's always been my plan to hold on to this game forever so that in a few decades time I could pull the entire collection out the cupboard and play complete and unhindered games with friends or small relatives.

I'm lucky enough to live in a place where it's relatively easy to find opponents (London) but next year I'll be moving to CanadaLand so will need to see what the scene is like in Halifax, N.S. At that point I'll be offering out my models to anyone who even throws a passing glance at the game. If there was a smaller core box with essential components and a suite of starter upgrade cards, like others have suggested, then I think it would be an easier sell to say "Get this and a couple of ships you like and you can borrow what ever you need whilst you build up your collection". Plus I could grab another set so I could run multiple games at the same time (for a CC campaign, for example).

Define "too much?" Too much is relative isn't it?

Does the game more need a box that just has the tools everyone needs from the core? Dice, maneuver tool, obstacles, damage cards , rule books, objectives, and range ruler. Then you get your fleet in expansions.

2 minutes ago, ManInTheBox said:

It's always been my plan to hold on to this game forever so that in a few decades time I could pull the entire collection out the cupboard and play complete and unhindered games with friends or small relatives.

Same here man!

If I'm dropping hundreds of dollars on a spaceship game, I'm hanging on to it for the long term. If it ends up dying in 3 or 4 years, I'll still be all set to con my son into games when he's old enough 7 or 8 years down the road...

In the uk I am generally the youngest player at regionals or nationals by a distance.

Think that is a worthy point on demographics.

Thanks for all of your input.

While we discussed several different aspects of why people buy in and stay into Armada I think you all have helped put a fine point on the cost issue. Sure, people won't like every game for various reasons but people not even trying because due to initial cost is a precise issue which can be modified without affecting the core game play mechanics at all.

I think the best solution you all have put forth is release of single faction starter sets which include damage decks, rulers, and all the basic items needed to play the game. I believe that a starter with a corvette and a guppy and some squadrons for rebels and a starter with a raider and a vic for imps would likely generate a lot more interest. Heck, FFG could even take the opportunity to slip some exclusive upgrades in those starters to get OUR money too!(I mean c'mon folks, we know how they do)

Someone had mentioned that game stores would have issues with new starters due to more shelf space and additional SCU's, however I can tell you that Armada starters sit on the shelf for a LONG time out here in Tucson if they're even stocked at all, it's mostly us continuing players that purchase the product. At most of the stores older expansions continue to gather dust because us old timers them already and no new players are picking up the game. I believe that selling a more attractive starter set would get those older models sold and because the player base is increased you'll sell more later models and BOOM, revenue increase, which leads to continued support for the game from FFG.

Tabletop games are generally an expensive hobby in general honestly. I do agree that the core is probably the biggest point against starting easily in Armada. I would want to phase out the old core in favor of 2 60$ Faction starters with the core components and same models from the core but with an extra ship or squadrons. Maybe toss in an Arquitens for the Imperials with some new stuff and another CR-90 with a task force for the rebels. That way you get some new stuff for the older players and you can still get the stuff from the Core without spending on the Core later just for some ships/ship you probably won't use. Lots of important stuff in the core honestly.

Their are problems with the split core response. Split the existing core into two factions, but you can't split the core components, so the sum of two faction cores would be more than $100. You'd probably be looking at like $65 a piece minimum. Each core will need dice, measuring tool, damage deck, rules, objectives, cardboard, obstacles, and more than just half the cards from the standard core. But who are you going to play against with your half of a core? So now you buy the other faction core so your friend can play...well now that $100 box became 2 boxes at $120-$130. Didn't really help the price point much now did we?

I'm more likely to get someone to try and start something if I pay the $100 starter fee. Give them a taste for free, then convince them to join. It just got more expensive to do that. And trying to sell your buddy on "Look, I pay $65, you pay $65, and then we can try this game to see if we like it." "How about we just play one of the other 150 games you have on the shelf..."

I'm also not sure if "For only $65 you can buy half a game that you can't even play!" is a great sales pitch.

Beyond all that, you know FFG would just make the core with new ships, or new versions of the old ships forcing us to buy them too.../sigh.

As for then adding more ships to the faction cores? Holy **** man. Now you're talking $85-$90 faction cores minimum...that's not helping the price point.

Really like the $60 introductory faction idea for the game. It is similar to what is done in Warmahordes. You want a different faction?, buy a different starter set. This should be even easier for Armada as there is only two factions. People won't be buying expansions if they can't bring themselves to ante up $100 just to get started. In marketing, there is the concept of the "Loss Leader" to get people into store with the premise that while they are there they will buy other items that will generate a profit. I'm surely not telling FFG how to market Armada but expanding the appeal a little can only be a good thing when they have a product this good. I understand it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but maybe some players of other FFG games (like X....) will come over for starters. I'm just saying.

In reply to buying two split cores, l did assume that each player would have their own copy. But so did FFG as per the "Learn to Play" booklet, at the bottom of page 24. I'm old enough to know there are no perfect solutions. ?

FFG does their cores at a loss (not likely, but a bargain compared to individual expansions).

Vic, CR90, Neb B, dice, and movement tool are $98. A fighter pack of 8 fighters is $20, while the core has 10 fighters, so that brings it up to $120. Include the rules, the range ruler, objectives, damage cards, obstacles, etc and you can see that FFG is already sacrificing some profit margin to make cores as cheap as possible in comparison to expansions. Again, they likely make profit on the core, they just make more profit from selling the parts individually.

As for pg 24, that assumes (if I'm thinking of the right page), that you'll both have a full core and will share the contents. Again, to do a split core, the same scenario would cost considerably more.

Not sure the faction-specific core set is the best idea for a 'reduced cost starter'.

IMHO, the better idea really is to just put out a no-game-here 'core components' set. IE., the tokens, objective cards, rulers, dice, and rules. Everything you need EXCEPT the ships, and players can then just buy the ships they want. (FFG already sells the dice and maneuver tool for $18 total - add a bunch of cardboard to to that to cover the needed objective and victory tokens, range ruler, etc - some objective cards - the quick start and rules reference - think you could still bring the whole thing in around $30)

Rune Wars has that “essentials” pack. Perhaps they will see how that sells before expanding the list to Armada?

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

In the uk I am generally the youngest player at regionals or nationals by a distance.

Think that is a worthy point on demographics.

I'm one of the oldest in the demographic I think. I usually get taken for mid 40s but I'm actually 52. The players here are mostly in their 40s and 50s. I think a more mature player base makes for a more pleasant atmosphere both at tournaments and in casual games. It may be a function of getting older but I look at X Wing's 23 page FAQ and think "I can't be arsed with this".

I know I had advocated for a bare essentials core pack before, in the interests of the lowest price point possible, but I've developed second thoughts since Dras brought up the RuneWars pack. I remember seeing it in a FLGS, and somehow an "essentials pack" just doesn't have the same impulse-buy appeal as "Armada Core Set" did for me.

Having a "Rebellion Core Set" or "Imperial Core Set" sounds mighty sexy marketing-wise, I think.

Now, maybe they can do that with decorative backing for the damage decks or some such cosmetic dressing, for an essentials style starter set. I know I'd buy both just for that.

3 minutes ago, Maturin said:

I know I had advocated for a bare essentials core pack before, in the interests of the lowest price point possible, but I've developed second thoughts since Dras brought up the RuneWars pack. I remember seeing it in a FLGS, and somehow an "essentials pack" just doesn't have the same impulse-buy appeal as "Armada Core Set" did for me.

I think you'd have to charge $10 more than you'd otherwise ship it for, and include a $15 manufacturer rebate for any other Armada SKU, to get that same sort of 'hey this is cool after all' sort of feeling with it. Prominently advertised on the box, of course, with some suggested purchases to pair it with. So, say, $40 with a $15 rebate.

Why not make a standard core set, with only the rule books, dice, tools, Objective, damage deck. + A voucher for buying a small ship expansion pack for free/discount.

This way you have a as low cost as possible starter set, with one ship expansion pack of free choice. Then its not tied to a specific Faction.

24 minutes ago, Kiwi Rat said:

Why not make a standard core set, with only the rule books, dice, tools, Objective, damage deck. + A voucher for buying a small ship expansion pack for free/discount.

This way you have a as low cost as possible starter set, with one ship expansion pack of free choice. Then its not tied to a specific Faction.

Now that's kind of cool. $30 for all the non-ship/fighter stuff and a $10 coupon towards any armada purchase.

Still not sure if it would help really.

We keep discussing the price, but you still can't play the game for that $30, even if you use the coupon. You still need to drop another couple hundred to field a fleet. You can't play the game with a faction starter. The $100 starter box is relatively expensive, but it gives a good feel for the game in a reasonable price range. All the other options we are discussing have a lower price point, but they also don't give you enough to do, well, anything. For $100 I can actually play a minimalized version of the game....or for $30, or $60, or whatever I can learn that I need to spend more money just to even try it out. Not sure if that will attract or just aggravate more people.

I'm looking at this as an attempt to attract uninitiated people that don't know much about the game. The initiated likely aren't detoured by the sticker shock of the core as they already know they are in for an expensive hobby. A smaller core might be more beneficial for the initiated, but could be less than customer friendly to the uninitiated.

31 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Now that's kind of cool. $30 for all the non-ship/fighter stuff and a $10 coupon towards any armada purchase.

Still not sure if it would help really.

We keep discussing the price, but you still can't play the game for that $30, even if you use the coupon. You still need to drop another couple hundred to field a fleet. You can't play the game with a faction starter. The $100 starter box is relatively expensive, but it gives a good feel for the game in a reasonable price range. All the other options we are discussing have a lower price point, but they also don't give you enough to do, well, anything. For $100 I can actually play a minimalized version of the game....or for $30, or $60, or whatever I can learn that I need to spend more money just to even try it out. Not sure if that will attract or just aggravate more people.

I'm looking at this as an attempt to attract uninitiated people that don't know much about the game. The initiated likely aren't detoured by the sticker shock of the core as they already know they are in for an expensive hobby. A smaller core might be more beneficial for the initiated, but could be less than customer friendly to the uninitiated.

Well it would cut away parts of the investment you are not interested in and only focus on the parts that you want the most, which you would invest in anyway.

The voucher could also include a sqd pack and/or a second small ship, and the rules could have a starter game option for 200pts fleet. "Call it Patrol fleet battle"

Im just suggesting, that if marketed right, in a package bundle deal, the basic minimum starter set, can be bought together with exactly the ships/sqds of your choice, rather than "Here is 3 ships your are not interested. But you have to buy them before you buy that ISD you are more interested in"

If you had the choice of a TV package of ten channels you cant choose which are and a TV package of five channels of your own choice. Which would you pick, if the average cost per channel is the same?

5 hours ago, ManInTheBox said:

... It's always been my plan to hold on to this game forever so that in a few decades time I could pull the entire collection out the cupboard and play complete and unhindered games with friends or small relatives.

...

5 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Same here man!

If I'm dropping hundreds of dollars on a spaceship game, I'm hanging on to it for the long term. If it ends up dying in 3 or 4 years, I'll still be all set to con my son into games when he's old enough 7 or 8 years down the road...

I thought that the plan for any game people bought, I can only think of one game that I have gotten rid of in my life (not counting kid board games) and that is X-Wing.

Just now, CDAT said:

I thought that the plan for any game people bought, I can only think of one game that I have gotten rid of in my life (not counting kid board games) and that is X-Wing.

Eh, it seems to me like there are two types of buying-in. Some buy into just--or primarily--one faction or the other, and just enough to support one fleet, which is an entirely reasonable approach if you're on a more constrained budget and/or only mean to play while the game is supported.

3 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Eh, it seems to me like there are two types of buying-in. Some buy into just--or primarily--one faction or the other, and just enough to support one fleet, which is an entirely reasonable approach if you're on a more constrained budget and/or only mean to play while the game is supported.

I was talking more about this part.

8 hours ago, ManInTheBox said:

... It's always been my plan to hold on to this game forever so that in a few decades time I could pull the entire collection out the cupboard and play complete and unhindered games with friends or small relatives.

...

8 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

... I'm hanging on to it for the long term. ...

I can understand not getting everything for a game especially before you play it much. But it is just weird to me thinking that I am only go to buy a bit of this or that game and only hold on to it for a short time. Now maybe that was not what they were saying but that is how it looked to me and I just find that weird. How ever it might just be me that is weird, last time I played 40K was 3rd edition, but I still have all my stuff.

I know as someone on a strained budget currently that a faction specific split core sounds like an amazing thing i would most definitely buy now if they did bring one out and wish they had when i first brought in, i only run rebels and my friend only runs imperials so we got lucky, but i would of hated buying the core and having a ship i cant use.

Of course with patience even on my budget i have a massive amount of rebel ships and my friend is the same with imp gear- enough to run 3/4 games simultaneously, though we both need more squads and transports (and mc30c's...)

The first time I saw the Core set, I was like ''wow, 125$, that's too much!''. After this, I saw the box 2 or 3 times on the shelf and it was always that voice calling me ''it worth it!!!''

So I just went to a FLGS and there was 2 persons playing. That was it... When I saw the space mat, the ship and squadron, I just realised how it really worth it!

I understand the position of those who think we should separate by faction the core set to reduce the initial price. But as already mention before, it's not everyone that will like to buy a game that you can't play with, unless you know somebody else that have that game. Could they offer both? Why not, I don't think this idea could be bad and to be sure that we (player already in the game) want them, put new ship on those new starter pack.

For my own experience, I just bought 2 core set at the start for two reasons : 1, I want the rule book in french (I'm a french-canadian) and in english, just to be sure my friend won't try me on the rules. 2, As said, the core set is full of stuff that, buy appart, will cost you more. So why not. This way I have 2 range rulers, 2 maneuver tools (one in range 2 in one in range 4), more obstacles, and at this point what it's really important, more ships and squadrons.