5 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

This is a false assumption, that the more the merrier, and it showed at the Kiku Matsuri in Gencon. You don't want too many players, things become far more difficult to pair off into brackets each time. They want the dedicated and competitive minded players to show up. The high costs do shift out those that don't want to spend the money. EVERY major game does this, its why Super Bowl Tickets are super expensive, because the players that are willing to pay the costs are usually the most devoted. In the same way, by making the price as it is, taking travel and all the other expenses, they know that they are getting some SOLID players for this one, because they will be dedicated enough to make the trip to be there. If you want the offerings, you pay to get them, it comes with every major card game.

I didn't know that professional Football players had to pay to play at the Super Bowl.

I think if you are going to have a big event, it should be big and welcoming to all. If you want to make an exclusive event, you should then make it exclusive. I don't think something called a Grand Kotei should be exclusive, but big. On the whole Kiku Matsuri, yes, that was a mess, but its not like you couldn't handle said mess by planning ahead better. Its not like there aren't 1K sized magic tournaments that aren't at a convention that happen multiple times a year. They seemed to have figured out how to run a big tournament. To be fair, it sounds like those are more

5 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

This is all part of YOUR subjective values, wants and needs. If you think the risk of not enjoying yourself is not worth the potential reward, then don't go and save the money. Its all part of being a smart consumer. I am going because I am confident enough that I believe that I can achieve Hatamoto on Saturday, I know what I'm sacrificing and that is FINE with me, just like it will be with the other players. The demand for this tournament will far exceed the supply of seats, FFG is doing just fine.

My own value on this is actually not what I'm worried about. I am not really worried about the value of a player like you, since you are clearly the targeted audience of such a competition. Also, I might show up to the Philly Grand Kotei. I'm more worried about others being excluded and discouraged from playing. I'm not saying that this isn't a viable method, but I am saying that I don't think it is the best method. More players is always better competition.

My main point really is to argue that I feel like excluding people is bad, regardless the reason for it. The L5R Community has always tried to be inclusive and welcoming, at least in person (Online community had its issues). Going to a Kotei was always a lot of fun not just because of playing competitively, but because a lot of different and interesting people show up that I generally enjoyed hanging out with. They were generally nice people who I only saw by going to the surrounding area Kotei. The phrase "Grand Kotei" makes me think it should be that, but bigger. By sticking it behind the wall of a convention, you discourage some of those people from showing up, without what I feel is not much gain, since I feel like most people don't go to conventions other than GenCon for stuff other than tournaments. I agree there is a cost to any hobby you do, and you need to judge the hobby based on that. However, I do think being able to make stuff easily accessible is in the best interest of the health of the game.

On 10/11/2017 at 5:04 PM, Mirith said:

I didn't know that professional Football players had to pay to play at the Super Bowl.

I think if you are going to have a big event, it should be big and welcoming to all. If you want to make an exclusive event, you should then make it exclusive. I don't think something called a Grand Kotei should be exclusive, but big. On the whole Kiku Matsuri, yes, that was a mess, but its not like you couldn't handle said mess by planning ahead better. Its not like there aren't 1K sized magic tournaments that aren't at a convention that happen multiple times a year. They seemed to have figured out how to run a big tournament. To be fair, it sounds like those are more

My own value on this is actually not what I'm worried about. I am not really worried about the value of a player like you, since you are clearly the targeted audience of such a competition. Also, I might show up to the Philly Grand Kotei. I'm more worried about others being excluded and discouraged from playing. I'm not saying that this isn't a viable method, but I am saying that I don't think it is the best method. More players is always better competition.

My main point really is to argue that I feel like excluding people is bad, regardless the reason for it.

While I totally get where you're coming from here, what is the solution to this? Understand that the idea of Grand Kotei's (and to a lesser extent, regular ones) is to find the best players and reward them. The way to do that is to pull from the largest player pool, and the way to do that is to do it at a Con. How would you do this and still reduce the cost/travel expense for the average player?

12 minutes ago, ChuckBTY said:

While I totally get where you're coming from here, what is the solution to this? Understand that the idea of Grand Kotei's (and to a lesser extent, regular ones) is to find the best players and reward them. The way to do that is to pull from the largest player pool, and the way to do that is to do it at a Con. How would you do this and still reduce the cost/travel expense for the average player?

Not doing it during a con would reduce the cost to players. Hotels are cheaper and the cost to admission is lower. Additionally, I don't think doing it at a convention actually adds a significant number of people to the competition, while actually actively discouraging others who might have gone. I don't think the number of people who say, "Oh, hey, they added L5R to this convention I'm going to, great, sign me up!" is tiny. There might be some playesr who think, "Oh I wasn't going to go to that convention, but now that they added an L5R tourney, sure, I'll go", but I also don't think that they would be that many, especially that wouldn't have also thought, "Oh the Philly Kotei is in 2 weeks, we should go". I think the only people who benefit from having a tournament during a convention is the convention itself, since they get more attendees.

I can at the very least point at the dragon-con Kotei the one or two years towards then end when I could do it, where the attendance was typically tiny as compared to the other nearby Kotei. (Charlotte/Fort Mill was typically 60-90 while I played, DragonCon had 20-30?). I know some of the Atlanta players wouldn't show up to the DragonCon Kotei since they had to get a badge. Later they moved away from DragonCon and had some pretty good turn-out (Similar to the Charlotte Kotei if I remember right). Sure its easier to get your Kotei win with a smaller pool, but is that the best for the community or just yourself?

My proposed solution would be to have Grand Kotei (and smaller Kotei) as separate events that are not held during conventions.

Having the big tournaments distinct form major cons would cost less for someone only interested in the tournaments, but someone who wanted to go to a con and to a tournament would actually have to pay more to attend both.

The problem is I think (and granted I'm making assumptions here) that they want the Grand Kotei's to be just that...Grand. They want big events. you don't get that by watering it down, and the only places that can really house the sort of attendance they're looking for is at Conventions. No matter where you have that sort of thing people are going to have to pay travel expenses and SOME kind of entrance fee. Granted saving the $60 on the con fee would be nice, but I doubt THAT is the dealbreaker for anyone. If you're looking for something smaller there's going to be the regular Kotei's and the store championships.

I will probably go to two Kotei's next year...I'm assuming there will be a regular Kotei in Dallas and then the Grand Kotei at GenCon. I wouldn't fly to Indy for a Kotei alone and honestly, I probably wouldn't have the itch to go to GenCon if it didn't have the Grand Kotei. The two together, however, are enough for me to start planning for the airfare, hotel, etc.

36 minutes ago, Laurence J Sinclair said:

Having the big tournaments distinct form major cons would cost less for someone only interested in the tournaments, but someone who wanted to go to a con and to a tournament would actually have to pay more to attend both.

I think that is a more valid concern than the others brought up.

26 minutes ago, rzlittle said:

I will probably go to two Kotei's next year...I'm assuming there will be a regular Kotei in Dallas and then the Grand Kotei at GenCon. I wouldn't fly to Indy for a Kotei alone and honestly, I probably wouldn't have the itch to go to GenCon if it didn't have the Grand Kotei. The two together, however, are enough for me to start planning for the airfare, hotel, etc.

I sort of put GenCon separate from all of this, and that maybe unfair. GenCon already was established as being THE competition for AEG L5R, at least half the time. And even if it wasn't the big tournament of the year, it was the second biggest. And I did the same thing for GenCon this year. I wasn't going, then I was for L5R. However, my difference here is sort of distance as well. But you aren't considering flying out to PAX Unplugged or the UK Games Expo.

But let me give you a hypothetical. Assume this is during some free weekend where you can get time off or whatever.

1) Grand Kotei in Local, but during a convention, (Assume you have to pay the badge cost)

2) Grand Kotei in Local, but not during a convention

3) Grand Kotei 6 hour drive away, during a convention (Assume you have to pay the badge cost) that isn't GenCon.

4) Grand Kotei 6 hour drive away, not during a convention that isn't GenCon.

If 6 hour is too far, consider it being the max distance you would be willing to drive, and probably have to get a hotel if you make it to day 2, assuming you just aren't willing to drive outside of local (Which to me I consider about 1-2 hours).

Which of these are you willing to go to?

6 minutes ago, Mirith said:

I think that is a more valid concern than the others brought up.

I sort of put GenCon separate from all of this, and that maybe unfair. GenCon already was established as being THE competition for AEG L5R, at least half the time. And even if it wasn't the big tournament of the year, it was the second biggest. And I did the same thing for GenCon this year. I wasn't going, then I was for L5R. However, my difference here is sort of distance as well. But you aren't considering flying out to PAX Unplugged or the UK Games Expo.

But let me give you a hypothetical. Assume this is during some free weekend where you can get time off or whatever.

1) Grand Kotei in Local, but during a convention, (Assume you have to pay the badge cost)

2) Grand Kotei in Local, but not during a convention

I'm going to stop you here So the problem is where is this hypothetical "not during a convention" taking place. As someone who has run a FLGS and run some pretty successful events I can tell you that most stores can maybe run about 70-100 people before you start having to deal with fire code issues. Yes you can rent a hall, but then you have to start considering charging extra for that space ect.

I really think the point you're missing is "Grand". I don't think that FFG would consider a tournament held at your FLGS or local VFW to be big enough for what they have in mind, so how does this "local" GK get done?

I've seen plenty of big events held outside of conventions (I'm talking about several hundred players). The biggest was a European Championship for L5R CCG. The next biggest were European Championships for AGoT (before FFG took organization in hand and held the EC at a con).

I suspect that part of the deal with the Grand Kotei's is that they will be at least partially staffed and attended by FFG. There is a limitation to the number of events that the company can send their staff to and it makes sense for them to tie the events to other conventions that the company will already have a presence at.

4 hours ago, ChuckBTY said:

I'm going to stop you here So the problem is where is this hypothetical "not during a convention" taking place. As someone who has run a FLGS and run some pretty successful events I can tell you that most stores can maybe run about 70-100 people before you start having to deal with fire code issues. Yes you can rent a hall, but then you have to start considering charging extra for that space ect.

I really think the point you're missing is "Grand". I don't think that FFG would consider a tournament held at your FLGS or local VFW to be big enough for what they have in mind, so how does this "local" GK get done?

I have seen Kotei run by game stores at non-Game store locations in the US as well as the craziness of the Europeans. Yes, I expect the ticket price to go up, but not another $30-60 for a badge + tournament costs. There is admittedly a level of risk that the game store then takes on then since they probably pay out of pocket then recoup costs from ticket sales.

4 hours ago, rzlittle said:

I suspect that part of the deal with the Grand Kotei's is that they will be at least partially staffed and attended by FFG. There is a limitation to the number of events that the company can send their staff to and it makes sense for them to tie the events to other conventions that the company will already have a presence at.

I agree that could very well be, but is that best for the players? That being said, why is Cascade Games running the tournament, not FFG, at PAX Unplugged. Their name is clearly splashed all over this tournament, and PAX Unplugged seems like it should know how to handle ticket sales, given that while the convention is new, PAX is not. I'm sure some of FFG's staff will be there, but its not like FFG is trying to run it.

And to be fair, my argument is what is best for the players. This is different than what is best for FFG, since FFG is a company and it's goal is to make money. They will work towards that goal always.

Based on this thread, the vocal minority of people who want Grand Kotei at conventions outweighs the vocal minority of people who think it is a bad idea, but I at least thought it was worth the discussion.

In Europe there's the additional factor that winning a Grand Kotei is the only way most people will ever be able to go to Worlds (since without the free flight/accommodation the majority of players can't really justify the cost). If the GK itself becomes cost prohibitive then you've priced out most non-Americans from having even that slim shot of reaching worlds, regardless of skill level.

We already know that Worlds will be a primarily American affair, and that if it turns out the best player in the world is from a country without a GK and isn't loaded, we'll actually never know because they'll never attend. However, don't you want it to atleast vaguely resemble a competition between the best of the best? Making GKs accessible gives it a chance.

I also dislike there being only 3 non-US GKs for this reason. Even their small LCGs usually managed to fund getting a few folk across to Worlds from outside the US. Given the Winter Court decides clan roles, story choices and all sorts, this becomes an even bigger deal.