The initial thread got locked due to chant discussions, which I am NOT trying to start here.

I just noticed that the 3 Grand Kotei are associated with a convention, and I assume this means you need a badge for each, considering that I know GenCon does, and it looks like PAX Unplugged does. Is this a good idea? Lets ignore GenCon, because that kind of is the point of GenCon, though for AEG, it was often their big tournament for the year, where FFG does it at their own personal Worlds. But given this requires a badge, I was doing the math, and the Grand Kotei become super expensive. I remember doing DragonCon Kotei in the CCG, and honestly, they had poor turn out (had to buy a badge to play!), and ate most of one of your precious con days. I don't go to DragonCon for gaming, I go for all the other stuff, and maybe a little bit of gaming. To be fair, it looks like PAX is more gaming focused (Though tending towards video games) rather than something like ComicCon or DragonCon.

Is this good for the community? That the "big" events become super expensive, and feel exclusive then? It definitely exposes more people to the game, but I'm not sure it does that in a useful manner, since tossing someone into a tournament right after/as they learned to play isn't always fun.

Big prizes means more interest means larger venue. Gencon had a huge expense for it, people needed to buy tickets WELL in advance, then badges, then travel, and so on and there STILL was a massive demand for the ticket sales.

L5R pushed Gencon to their absolute max, breaking records. Now that they are having these huge events, where similar ranks and prizes will be administered, they are clearly placing the Grand Kotei at these larger venues that can hold them and the sheer amount of numbers expected.

And, in a sense, they SHOULD feel exclusive and special. These are the Grand Kotei, there are like 5 of them in a year or so as far as I can see, you get a playmat just for being there and can achieve the glorious Hatamoto status... it should be a big deal to attend these. Its not like there wont be overwhelming demand for them after all.

In a word yes it is good for the community that wants to compete. If you are a casual player there are plenty of local events to attend that will not put the same strain on a person financially. But when you are thinking of grand events they need space and a dedicated staff. As mentioned above just registering they are giving a really nice looking playmat and if you do well the prizes increase also.

If they had an event at a non convention area how many seats do you think are really available? Even at gencon the 700+ seats were sold out in the span of a few seconds. Not every event will come close to those numbers but even my local launch event had over 30+ players and we JUST fit. Premiere events need to be grand and extravagant and they need to be able to hold a fair amount of players along with the attending staff (that needs to be paid/accounted for) in order to keep it running fairly smooth.

Just like any hobby it's up to the individual to decide how much money they can feasibly allocate to that hobby while maintaining their regular lifestyle. Not everyone can make it to the bigger tournaments due to other commitments (children/family/health/money) but i don't think that's a 'community problem'.

This, in the past where functional promo cards were distributed at big tournaments it was one thing. In the land of alt arts and full bleeds making it to all the tourneys isn't a big necessity.

Sure, I agree with the sentiment that these should be special, but tying it to a convention just adds to the cost for everyone. Besides an audience, I don't really think it gains much for making it a good tournament. Compare it to the other option: Hold it on an independent weekend from a convention (or even hold it outside the convention on the same weekend, but then I think you are just shooting yourself in the foot, since then you compete with the convention). I also think that the big tournaments should be accessible, otherwise they wouldn't be big.

Having it at a convention adds 3 types of players. People who already happened to be going and decide to do the touney, people who decide to go to the convention expressly to play in the tourney, and people who would like to go, but can't afford it. I feel like, but admittedly have absolutely no data to back this up, that groups 2 and 3 are far more populous than group 1 (really the comparison is that that group 3 is probably greater than group 1, since clearly group 2 isn't as relevant), and groups 2 and 3 would go to a tournament on a separate weekend, all other things equal. I went to GenCon to play L5R. Other stuff was basically incidental, though not insignificant, but the biggest draw of GenCon to me was L5R. If I were to go to PAX Unplugged, I would go to play L5R. If/when I go to GenCon again, I am going to go to play L5R. However, if the event was some other weekend, when hotels are and possibly travel is cheaper, I would be much more likely to go to a Grand Kotei, especially one as reasonable as Philly to me, especially if I then don't have to pay an extra $100-$150 a night for a hotel room.

I also don't see that using a convention space during an existing convention, versus just having it happen separate being cheaper for the organizing party. I agree they have to rent space (assuming it won't fit in the store), pay employees, and make sure to have the necessary equipment to setup. I don't see that being convention specific. Now, on top of that, they have to pay for employee badges, as well as pay the convention for the ability to do their thing. Maybe FFG is footing the bill for the convention, but given the $40 a head ticket price on top of the $25-60 for the badge, I feel like FFG is letting them handle it, and unless Cascade Games is a truly awful game store, this is to cover the cost of them setting up this tournament. I'm pretty sure I've not paid more than $30 for a normal Kotei run by a game store in the past, and typically would pay $20-25. The Kiku Matsuri was only $45 and it came with a Core Set. (To be fair, FFG doesn't have to pay FFG much to get their tournament kit, but I feel like if you get to run a Grand Kotei, FFG isn't going to they try to screw you over on support).

The entire point is to have it at a convention, because that gives people more of an excuse to go to the tournament and purposely give it the exclusivity it needs to have. People wont fly out in vast numbers for a single event, burning vacation days or flyer miles JUST to miss the cut on Saturday and have jack **** to do. The point of having it at a convention is because you aren't just doing a tournament, your doing an entire con with merchants, other events, exciting announcements and other back up awesome stuff that can also entertain you. Its more of a vacation with less risk to the consumer as, if they do poorly on Saturday, they still have exciting events and merch stands to look at and enjoy.

For example, I will be at PAX and if I don't make the cut there are going to be MTG booths and boardgames and all sorts of cool stuff, so even if I scrub out I will still have fun and can hunt down some rare foils for my decks on day two.

Its not designed to be like a normal Kotei, its supposed to be a moment in the spot light, FFG's chance to show off the passion and scale of their player base to a convention that draws tens of THOUSANDS of players. If they just rented a hall for JUST the Grand Kotei, normal players just show up. That happens in every store championship and normal Kotei, the Grand Kotei seem designed to be different.

One thing I'd like to see is going back to having event tournaments that can affect a story line in stores simultaneously on the same weekend (i.e. Race To Volturnum back in the day). That can be a big draw, and give out huge prizes PLUS it helps your FLGS. That being said I do like to travel to the big tournaments when I can afford to. I'm a little sad the Philadelphia GK is coming up so quickly. As to the OP question these big tournaments are good for the game and would only be a problem if there are some kind of prizes that are unavailable elsewhere and effect game balance, which FFG doesn't do as far as I can tell. I've been lucky enough to go to 3 GenCon's (for Raw Deal) and can honestly say that to me they were well worth the money spent.

To be clear, I don't think people going to PAX Unplugged to play are wrong to do so. My issue is that FFG is adding in a much higher cost to players to be able to engage with their second highest level of competitive play. I'm glad they will get to play. If I can somehow leverage it with time off and such, I will try and show up, but it is unlikely. My personal issue with it is the timing more than anything, given that I think the weekend before thanksgiving is a terrible time to hold something like PAX Unplugged, since you are back-to-backing holiday travel with the convention, assuming you aren't lucky enough to decide to do your holiday travel to that area. But my reaction to the GK being AT a convention was "Urgh, that is going to make this more expensive". If it was just a normal weekend, I would highly consider driving up there, paying normal prices for a hotel room, driving back that weekend. Given now that PAX is going on, dealing with that extra hassle and cost makes me not want to do it. I somewhat feel like the people who want to go to a convention versus the people who want to play in a Grand Kotei don't overlap as much as you think. I am someone who is both, but I know a number of my playgroup is more on the "I don't want to go to a convention".

Also, note FFG has added additional tournament structures so that people have something to do once they are out/done with the main Kotei tournament (The Proving Grounds), with prize support. They acknowledge this problem and want to officially give you something to do.

I definitely understand not wanting to deal with a convention just to play a game. What I'm hoping is they'll add more regular Kotei's to the list so that people who don't want the expense and hassle of a full convention experience but still want to play in a Kotei environment have other options.

2 minutes ago, ChuckBTY said:

I definitely understand not wanting to deal with a convention just to play a game. What I'm hoping is they'll add more regular Kotei's to the list so that people who don't want the expense and hassle of a full convention experience but still want to play in a Kotei environment have other options.

And that is the assumption of the normal Kotei. It looks like the 2 that they list are like that (Though we can't be positive). But is that fair that those people who can't/won't deal with tens of THOUSANDS of players aren't able to participate in a Grand Kotei, which is the most premier event below FFG Worlds?

I understand being concerned about the financial angle. I was forced to give up on going to Worlds this year because it was too many expenses jammed together in a short span of time. That being said, the difference in prize support between Kotei and Grand Kotei is so small that I don't feel you're missing out on much of anything if you can't make it to a big convention. As long as the twenty or so Kotei are reasonably spread out and accessible geographically, I'm not too concerned.

They need to consider monetary prize support with this many hidden participation costs.

I mean, it's not outright money, but top 16 at grand koteis get a free seat at winter court. But I'm new, I forgot the prize support for this sucks. So I guess in old5R you got an actual chair too, right?

16 hours ago, Mirith said:

But is that fair that those people who can't/won't deal with tens of THOUSANDS of players aren't able to participate in a Grand Kotei, which is the most premier event below FFG Worlds?

Yes, it completely is fair. FFG has chosen a venue, the most advantageous and opportunistic venue to truly honor the scale and size of the event they are holding. They pick the event and plan it to entertain and support the largest amount of players possible intentionally, understanding that they cant appease everyone. The vast majority of their target demographic can handle the crowds and there is nothing inherently discriminatory about anything. You just buy a ticket and your in. By every definition it is fair.

If there are people that dislike crowds, cannot handle the noise, or anything else it is an issue that THEY have, not FFG. They can not like the venue nor how the event is being run, but that does not make things "unfair", because its just their subjective opinion. Sure, there are some who would have actual issues with crowds that would prevent them from attending, but they are an actual exception, not the norm and would have to accept that or simply ask FFG if concessions could be made on their part.

But if the complaint is "I don't like large crowds, so FFG shouldn't hold an event at a con." That doesn't make FFG unfair, it's just someone not liking the choice of venue.

Just like I don't like that Worlds isn't held in New York City, where I can easily access it, instead of at their headquarters across the continent. Does that make FFG "Unfair"? Not at all! They own the game and can choose where, when, and for how much they run their events. As long as they don't actively discriminate and allow anyone with the means and the will to participate then its all fair.

Going to Grand Kotei were already going to be a financial consideration since for most people they'll need to worry about travel and lodging expenses as well. There are plenty of local events if you aren't interested in attending or can't afford to attend these larger tournaments.

21 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Yes, it completely is fair. FFG has chosen a venue, the most advantageous and opportunistic venue to truly honor the scale and size of the event they are holding. They pick the event and plan it to entertain and support the largest amount of players possible intentionally, understanding that they cant appease everyone. The vast majority of their target demographic can handle the crowds and there is nothing inherently discriminatory about anything. You just buy a ticket and your in. By every definition it is fair.

If there are people that dislike crowds, cannot handle the noise, or anything else it is an issue that THEY have, not FFG. They can not like the venue nor how the event is being run, but that does not make things "unfair", because its just their subjective opinion. Sure, there are some who would have actual issues with crowds that would prevent them from attending, but they are an actual exception, not the norm and would have to accept that or simply ask FFG if concessions could be made on their part.

But if the complaint is "I don't like large crowds, so FFG shouldn't hold an event at a con." That doesn't make FFG unfair, it's just someone not liking the choice of venue.

Just like I don't like that Worlds isn't held in New York City, where I can easily access it, instead of at their headquarters across the continent. Does that make FFG "Unfair"? Not at all! They own the game and can choose where, when, and for how much they run their events. As long as they don't actively discriminate and allow anyone with the means and the will to participate then its all fair.

However, this doesn't really cover the main issue that a Grand Kotei costs at least twice as much to attend as a normal Kotei. Just to get in the door, the PAX tournament costs at least $65 (Single Day + Seat), if not, probably $90 or $100 (2-3 Day + Seat). On top of that, Hotel rooms are going to be at least twice what is is, especially for something scheduled across 2 days. Cost is a major factor in people deciding to do this sort of thing. I'm not saying people won't, but I think the "Big events" should, at least to some extent, try to make it as reasonable as possible to attend. I feel like the more people who show up to play, the better an event you'll get (Of course assuming the associated staff/space can handle it, but that would be a separate issue). I want people to play this game, and I want people to play competitively. I don't want the tournaments to be this exclusive pay-to-play thing with a $100 entry fee. Most of this cost, I feel, derives from it being at a convention.

Just now, phillos said:

Going to Grand Kotei were already going to be a financial consideration since for most people they'll need to worry about travel and lodging expenses as well. There are plenty of local events if you aren't interested in attending or can't afford to attend these larger tournaments.

There are ways to minimize the travel and lodging cost (Carpool, Share a hotel, etc). By hosting it during a convention, you double these, since most of the cost is hotel room, and hotels at least double during a convention, even the cheap ones.

I don't know what else to say. They are setting these high profile events at conventions for a reason. You can piggyback on people's already planned travel and it gives the game much more exposure which can help gain new players since it's staying in the public eye. They do plenty of events that aren't attached to cons. It's really only these Grand Kotei which are equivalent to their Nationals level LCG tournaments. I've never attended a Nationals level tournament in any of the LCGs I've played and I'm fine with that. I still competed quite a bit at the local level and the option to enter the World's lottery is always open.

Speaking of costs, there are plenty of ways to cut corners that people glance over because it is not as convenient. Gen Con for example yes there are people who have disabilities but i simply refuse to believe EVERYONE has a disability and they can't walk or get a hotel room that isn't connected to the convention itself or the downtown area. There were people who refused to get a hotel out of downtown simply because it wasn't convenient even if it was cheaper to book including the daily cost of uber to head to the convention to do so.

Saying that there is a 'pay gate' to get through with big conventions doesn't seem like a valid reason. Because one can argue why they can't compete or get a full game experience with one core (or proxy cards) for an official event. That is not the problem of the community or company that's the player.

20 minutes ago, cerealkiller195 said:

Speaking of costs, there are plenty of ways to cut corners that people glance over because it is not as convenient. Gen Con for example yes there are people who have disabilities but i simply refuse to believe EVERYONE has a disability and they can't walk or get a hotel room that isn't connected to the convention itself or the downtown area. There were people who refused to get a hotel out of downtown simply because it wasn't convenient even if it was cheaper to book including the daily cost of uber to head to the convention to do so.

Saying that there is a 'pay gate' to get through with big conventions doesn't seem like a valid reason. Because one can argue why they can't compete or get a full game experience with one core (or proxy cards) for an official event. That is not the problem of the community or company that's the player.

Yes, but the hotels that are far out from GenCon are still twice as expensive that weekend, and now you need to make sure you have a car. But given a non-convention weekend, these hotels, and the closer ones will all still be a cheaper. It still doesn't affect the twice (or more) the price at the door just to play.

Given the cost thing, lets move on to the other side of things, being able to participate in the convention. I assume everyone is playing to win, because as you said before, if you aren't trying to be competitive and win the tournament, you'd just play in tournaments/casually at home. So given that L5R is a 2 day (or at least a day and a half) event, assuming you are doing well, that means you are dedicating a day and a half to playing. PAX Unplugged is only 3 days long. I assume the biggest day for the convention is on Saturday, which you are spending playing L5R and not doing the convention. Sure, if/when you lose, you can leave and go do stuff, and while I appreciate my opponents going in and expecting defeat, I try my best not to. So not only did you pay the extra money to go to the convention, you then paid more money in the hopes that you couldn't go and participate in half of it.

And sure, you can make the argument "This is what you do at a convention anyways, you can't do everything, you have to pick and choose, etc..." However, if the Kotei WASNT during a convention, then you wouldn't have this opportunity cost. Instead you can dedicate the weekend to playing L5R without worrying about "Hey, I didn't get to see this panel" or "I didn't get to participate in any of the campaigns for this new RPG" due to scheduling conflicts.

Also, given how FFG does it's Worlds tournaments, its not like FFG is opposed to the idea of pulling people together outside of conventions to play their games for a big thing.

I wish we eventually get a Grand Kotei in the European Union.

1 minute ago, Barbacuo said:

I wish we eventually get a Grand Kotei in the European Union.

I hope you do too.

53 minutes ago, cerealkiller195 said:

Saying that there is a 'pay gate' to get through with big conventions doesn't seem like a valid reason. Because one can argue why they can't compete or get a full game experience with one core (or proxy cards) for an official event. That is not the problem of the community or company that's the player.

That's a skewed comparison, because you need to pay entry fees for each tournament you go to. Travel and accomodation as well, unless you live where the tournament happens. But once you've bought cards, you don't need to buy them again.

1 hour ago, Mirith said:

I feel like the more people who show up to play, the better an event you'll get (Of course assuming the associated staff/space can handle it, but that would be a separate issue). I want people to play this game, and I want people to play competitively. I don't want the tournaments to be this exclusive pay-to-play thing with a $100 entry fee

This is a false assumption, that the more the merrier, and it showed at the Kiku Matsuri in Gencon. You don't want too many players, things become far more difficult to pair off into brackets each time. They want the dedicated and competitive minded players to show up. The high costs do shift out those that don't want to spend the money. EVERY major game does this, its why Super Bowl Tickets are super expensive, because the players that are willing to pay the costs are usually the most devoted. In the same way, by making the price as it is, taking travel and all the other expenses, they know that they are getting some SOLID players for this one, because they will be dedicated enough to make the trip to be there. If you want the offerings, you pay to get them, it comes with every major card game.

28 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Given the cost thing, lets move on to the other side of things, being able to participate in the convention. I assume everyone is playing to win, because as you said before, if you aren't trying to be competitive and win the tournament, you'd just play in tournaments/casually at home. So given that L5R is a 2 day (or at least a day and a half) event, assuming you are doing well, that means you are dedicating a day and a half to playing. PAX Unplugged is only 3 days long. I assume the biggest day for the convention is on Saturday, which you are spending playing L5R and not doing the convention. Sure, if/when you lose, you can leave and go do stuff, and while I appreciate my opponents going in and expecting defeat, I try my best not to. So not only did you pay the extra money to go to the convention, you then paid more money in the hopes that you couldn't go and participate in half of it

This is all part of YOUR subjective values, wants and needs. If you think the risk of not enjoying yourself is not worth the potential reward, then don't go and save the money. Its all part of being a smart consumer. I am going because I am confident enough that I believe that I can achieve Hatamoto on Saturday, I know what I'm sacrificing and that is FINE with me, just like it will be with the other players. The demand for this tournament will far exceed the supply of seats, FFG is doing just fine.

33 minutes ago, Mirith said:

However, if the Kotei WASNT during a convention, then you wouldn't have this opportunity cost. Instead you can dedicate the weekend to playing L5R without worrying about "Hey, I didn't get to see this panel" or "I didn't get to participate in any of the campaigns for this new RPG" due to scheduling conflicts.

They HAVE these events, they are store championships and the 15 normal kotei. This option exists to allow the Grand Kotei, only 5 in the world reminder, to be these bigger events. Its kind of the reason they are called GRAND Kotai.

A lot of this sounds like you just not wanting to spend a lot of money, its fine, but this is a hobby, and there are things that are high cost, it just comes with the game. Complaining that its expensive is relative, what is expensive to some is not to others.

5 hours ago, Barbacuo said:

I wish we eventually get a Grand Kotei in the European Union.

We do.

It was one of the first announced.

June 1-3, 2018 Grand Kotei Birmingham, England

Or are you assuming Britain won’t be part of the Eu then...

5 minutes ago, Shiryo no Otaku said:

We do.

It was one of the first announced.

June 1-3, 2018 Grand Kotei Birmingham, England

Or are you assuming Britain won’t be part of the Eu then...

Continental Europeans never considered the UK to be part of Europe anyway is the sentiment I sussed out when European Championships for ANR and AGOT were announced to be at the UK Games Expo this year.