Pretty much.

THe way x-wing's rules work is exception-based. I.e. the core rules set up what you CAN do, and specific individual elements provide exceptions to those rules. Unless there's a specific exception on a game element then, the general rule applies.

The general rule is 'when you perform a boost or barrel roll, neither the template nor the ship base can overlap an obstacle. If either would, the boost or barrel roll doesn't happen and you reset back to wherever you were before you tried.'

The specific exception on the Tractor Beam Token reference card is 'the ship base can overlap obstacles'. It says nothing about the template, so the template is not excepted from the general rule.

I'd share the suspicion that it was INTENDED to be excepted from the general rule, but that's not what's actually *written*.

12 hours ago, darthlurker said:

"Ship" and "ship base" are the same thing when referring to movement, it's just loose language by FFG. The reason I believe that can be found in Collision Detector: "[...] your ship and maneuver template can overlap obstacles ". This example breaks your precedent doubly, because 1) "ship" is clearly referring to "ship base" (and not both base and template), otherwise they wouldn't have been addressed separately, and (2) both are addressed separately despite being CAN abilities.

I've read that 3 times and still don't get what you're trying to say, but maybe it's because it's late here.

I completely agree that it makes no sense from an implementation standpoint, which is why I sent an email asking about this last week, but the rules as intended and rules as written appear to disagree. I'm probably the person that uses tractor beams the most often in my play group and would be very sad to not be able to overlap the template with obstacles, but my interests have no bearing on what the rules say.

Please read this knowing it is in no way meant as hostile.. but I know long paragraphs can come off as angry rants on the internet.

Ship and ship base are not the same thing being used as loose language. The ship is a general term for all things involving the ship. movement, declaring a target, activation order, anything that refers tot he ship as a whole entity. The ship base is a very specific game component which is used for measurement. Referencing the 'ship' is the base, the pilot, the ID tokens, etc.. and in this case the template as the same thing UNLESS they are addressed separately. And again, I know people are reading this as tractor says 'barrel roll' and barrel roll says you can't hit and obstacle with the template or the ship base and tractor only releases the ship base from that equation. But barrel roll DOES specify BASE and TEMPLATE. They are calling them out individually, and specifically. By releasing the SHIP from that restriction, it releases both. There is never an instance in which the template can cause an effect but the ship base cannot. There are only instances in which the ship base can cause an effect AND the template can, or the ship base can and the template can not. If the 'ship' cannot cause an effect, then by definition the template cannot either, as the template does not exist in the game space and only represents the path the ship took. If the ship can touch something without triggering an effect, the template can too. The effect in this case is preventing an action. I am not taking this as RAI, I am reading it as written. The ship can be moved on to an obstacle. It does not say the ship can be moved on to an obstacle but the template can not. I also get that a lot of the people arguing against the template touching do not agree that that is how it should be played, only that their interpretation of the RAW say that and FFG should fix it.

I will also concede that it would have less confusing to say the tractor moves a small ship forward 1 (instead of using the term 'boost') or to the sides as you would a barrel roll (instead of short handing it to calling it a barrel roll)

And what I meant by that was :"You can't be made to hit the obstacle (with your ship) if you hit the obstacle (with the template) when you hit the obstacle (with your ship) unless you hit the obstacle (with your ship) without hitting the obstacle (with the template) . After all, you can't normally CHOOSE to hit the obstacle by either hitting the obstacle (with your ship) OR by hitting the obstacle (with the template) !" My point is that in both cases it represents the a ship hitting an obstacle.

53 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Pretty much.

THe way x-wing's rules work is exception-based. I.e. the core rules set up what you CAN do, and specific individual elements provide exceptions to those rules. Unless there's a specific exception on a game element then, the general rule applies.

The general rule is 'when you perform a boost or barrel roll, neither the template nor the ship base can overlap an obstacle. If either would, the boost or barrel roll doesn't happen and you reset back to wherever you were before you tried.'

The specific exception on the Tractor Beam Token reference card is 'the ship base can overlap obstacles'. It says nothing about the template, so the template is not excepted from the general rule.

I'd share the suspicion that it was INTENDED to be excepted from the general rule, but that's not what's actually *written*.

The exception is NOT 'the ship base can overlap obstacles' it is the 'the SHIP can overlap obstacles' it is a vital distinction. If it said 'ship base' I would 100% be on the side that FFG made a glaring omission in not allowing the template to overlap as well buy that is the rule. As it allows the "ship", the template is allowed too.

5 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

Please read this knowing it is in no way meant as hostile.. but I know long paragraphs can come off as angry rants on the internet.

Ship and ship base are not the same thing being used as loose language. The ship is a general term for all things involving the ship. movement, declaring a target, activation order, anything that refers tot he ship as a whole entity. The ship base is a very specific game component which is used for measurement. Referencing the 'ship' is the base, the pilot, the ID tokens, etc.. and in this case the template as the same thing UNLESS they are addressed separately. And again, I know people are reading this as tractor says 'barrel roll' and barrel roll says you can't hit and obstacle with the template or the ship base and tractor only releases the ship base from that equation. But barrel roll DOES specify BASE and TEMPLATE. They are calling them out individually, and specifically. By releasing the SHIP from that restriction, it releases both. There is never an instance in which the template can cause an effect but the ship base cannot. There are only instances in which the ship base can cause an effect AND the template can, or the ship base can and the template can not. If the 'ship' cannot cause an effect, then by definition the template cannot either, as the template does not exist in the game space and only represents the path the ship took. If the ship can touch something without triggering an effect, the template can too. The effect in this case is preventing an action. I am not taking this as RAI, I am reading it as written. The ship can be moved on to an obstacle. It does not say the ship can be moved on to an obstacle but the template can not. I also get that a lot of the people arguing against the template touching do not agree that that is how it should be played, only that their interpretation of the RAW say that and FFG should fix it.

I will also concede that it would have less confusing to say the tractor moves a small ship forward 1 (instead of using the term 'boost') or to the sides as you would a barrel roll (instead of short handing it to calling it a barrel roll)

And what I meant by that was :"You can't be made to hit the obstacle (with your ship) if you hit the obstacle (with the template) when you hit the obstacle (with your ship) unless you hit the obstacle (with your ship) without hitting the obstacle (with the template) . After all, you can't normally CHOOSE to hit the obstacle by either hitting the obstacle (with your ship) OR by hitting the obstacle (with the template) !" My point is that in both cases it represents the a ship hitting an obstacle.

The problem I have with this argument is I cannot find anything in the rules that say the template is part of the "ship" as you calim it is. Granted "ship" and "ship base" might not be exacly the same thing, but where can we find the defenition of "ship" then? And does it realy include the template?

3 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

Ship and ship base are not the same thing being used as loose language. The ship is a general term for all things involving the ship. movement, declaring a target, activation order, anything that refers tot he ship as a whole entity.

I agree that ship can mean all of those things depending on the context of the rules in question, but I stated that ship and ship base are the same in the context of movement, and gave an example of that.

6 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

There is never an instance in which the template can cause an effect but the ship base cannot.

Irrelevant, just because there hasn't been one yet doesn't mean that there cannot be or never will be.

10 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

Please read this knowing it is in no way meant as hostile.. but I know long paragraphs can come off as angry rants on the internet.

No worries, we're just explaining our respective interpretations

Just now, Smuggler said:

The problem I have with this argument is I cannot find anything in the rules that say the template is part of the "ship" as you calim it is. Granted "ship" and "ship base" might not be exacly the same thing, but where can we find the defenition of "ship" then? And does it realy include the template?

I agree there, it should be called out. It's a tough life for the copy editors at FFG not seeing how nit picky we can be lol. My point is that the crux of the 'template can't touch' argument is that the ship and ship base are the exact same thing and as the TB excludes the 'ship' from the restriction, the exception proves the rule that the template is not excluded. But hey are not one in the same. Ship is a general term for all things involving the 'ship' in question.

3 hours ago, xbeaker said:

The exception is NOT 'the ship base can overlap obstacles' it is the 'the SHIP can overlap obstacles' it is a vital distinction. If it said 'ship base' I would 100% be on the side that FFG made a glaring omission in not allowing the template to overlap as well buy that is the rule. As it allows the "ship", the template is allowed too.

Nonsense. The ship and the template are clearly distinct elements in the barrel roll rules, and only one is mentioned in the tractor beam rules.

You're making things up.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nonsense. The ship and the template are clearly distinct elements in the barrel roll rules, and only one is mentioned in the tractor beam rules.

You're making things up.

Not only that, but the fact that the template can overlap another ship during movement while the moving ship itself cannot is pretty clear evidence that the ship and the template are two different things. Allowing something for one does not automatically allow it for the other.