7 hours ago, Pooleman said:

I think we are expected to use a little common sense here.

Common sense does not apply to rules, only rules do

7 hours ago, joelgb said:

common sense says you can't use Feedback Array when cloacked, but you can

Where does it say you can use the feedback array while cloaked?

1 hour ago, bgrelle said:

Where does it say you can use the feedback array while cloaked?

Nowhere in any official documents. The only ruling we have is an email from FFG that said you can since you can use Feedback Array with blinded pilot, even though it makes far more sense to treat a cloak token like a weapons disabled token.

OK, yea that makes no sense at all with the new blinded pilot. I could see how it would still be used with the old one that just said you would roll 0 dice the next time you attacked, so then you still have an attack you can skip to use feedback, of course if you did that you would still have the old blinded face up since you didn't actually make an attack. But when it is the exact same wording on all four (asteroids, cloak token, new blinded pilot, & weapons disabled token) it should work the same for all four not be half one way and half another way. The only hope there is that emails have been wrong before.

The Tractor Beam reference card says that the ship may overlap obstacles. The word base is not on the card at all.

So which game effect caused this FAQ entry?

RULES REFERENCE (OBSTACLES, PAGE 14)
The following section should be added after the third paragraph of the
Obstacles entry:
"After a ship’s base or maneuver template overlaps an obstacle, and the overlap is not from executing a maneuver, it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:
• Asteroid: The ship rolls 1 attack die. On a ? result, it suffers one
damage; on a ? result, it suffers one critical damage. While a ship is
overlapping an asteroid, it cannot perform any attacks.
• Debris Cloud: The ship receives 1 stress token. Then, the ship rolls 1
attack die. On a ? result, it suffers one critical damage."

11 hours ago, Squirl808 said:

RULES REFERENCE (OBSTACLES, PAGE 14)

The following section should be added after the third paragraph of the
Obstacles entry:
"After a ship’s base or maneuver template overlaps an obstacle, and the overlap is not from executing a maneuver , it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:
• Asteroid: The ship rolls 1 attack die. On a ? result, it suffers one
damage; on a ? result, it suffers one critical damage. While a ship is
overlapping an asteroid, it cannot perform any attacks.
• Debris Cloud: The ship receives 1 stress token. Then, the ship rolls 1
attack die. On a ? result, it suffers one critical damage."

Bolded for emphasis.

20 hours ago, Squirl808 said:

The Tractor Beam reference card says that the ship may overlap obstacles. The word base is not on the card at all.

So which game effect caused this FAQ entry?

RULES REFERENCE (OBSTACLES, PAGE 14)
The following section should be added after the third paragraph of the
Obstacles entry:
"After a ship’s base or maneuver template overlaps an obstacle, and the overlap is not from executing a maneuver, it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:
• Asteroid: The ship rolls 1 attack die. On a ? result, it suffers one
damage; on a ? result, it suffers one critical damage. While a ship is
overlapping an asteroid, it cannot perform any attacks.
• Debris Cloud: The ship receives 1 stress token. Then, the ship rolls 1
attack die. On a ? result, it suffers one critical damage."

This entry in the FAQ arrived soon after the Tractor Beam hit the game, as the associated "movement" was not from an action or maneuver. They followed this up with an updated Tractor Beam Token Reference Card.

6 hours ago, Parravon said:

This entry in the FAQ arrived soon after the Tractor Beam hit the game, as the associated "movement" was not from an action or maneuver. They followed this up with an updated Tractor Beam Token Reference Card.

As someone who likes playing Tractor Beam Vessery, I have an interest in the outcome of this discussion.

The Tractor Beam reference card says that you are able to have your maneuver templates overlap obstacles as part of a non-maneuver.

The rules reference entries for Boost and Barrel Roll say that your maneuver template cannot overlap obstacles.

A cannot trumps a may. So I unfortunately agree that you are only able to toss someone on a rock if the template is in the clear.

1 hour ago, Squirl808 said:

As someone who likes playing Tractor Beam Vessery, I have an interest in the outcome of this discussion.

The Tractor Beam reference card says that you are able to have your maneuver templates overlap obstacles as part of a non-maneuver.

The rules reference entries for Boost and Barrel Roll say that your maneuver template cannot overlap obstacles.

A cannot trumps a may. So I unfortunately agree that you are only able to toss someone on a rock if the template is in the clear.

Just a small point, but the rulebook actually says:

Quote

Card abilities can override the rules listed in this guide. Mission rules can override both card abilities and rules from this guide.
If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

There's no actual blanket rule that says "cannot trumps may" when it's in reference to rules , only card abilities and mission rules.

The Tractor Beam Reference card clearly overrides the rules in this case, because the rule says you cannot boost or barrel roll if your ship or maneuver template would overlap an obstacle. Now the reference card only mentions the ship being able to overlap and does not say anything about the template. This may be an oversight, or it might not be, but the Obstacles entry in the FAQ directly beneath the Tractor Beam Reference Card entry, would tend to imply that the template can overlap an obstacle when a ship is tractored.

Tractor Beam effect is specified as a Boost or a Barrel roll. These two procedures are not maneuvers.

Tractor Beam declares these procedures are followed, but they are not actions or maneuvers. Just like Dutch Vanders Target Lock is not an action. This clause is to prevent you getting 'after action' or 'after maneuver' triggers, and to specify that you are still allowed to perform these procedures as 'actions' later in the turn (possible with Asohka and Aireen Cracken).

Collision detector specifically allows the overriding of the basic Barrel Roll/ Boost procedure, and shows the text you would need in order for it to be the case. (No, the attacker would not be able to use this card if it was equipped on the defender).

Net result: Tractor Beam moves may not have the boost/barrel roll template used overlap an obstacle.

Tractor beam tokens have been a pain in the **** since before they were released. Just poor wording all around.

that said I vote for templet being able to overlap since the many many rules quoted in this thread so in fact allow it, following the convoluted logic.

On 10/14/2017 at 11:01 PM, GrimmyV said:

Tractor beam tokens have been a pain in the **** since before they were released. Just poor wording all around.

that said I vote for templet being able to overlap since the many many rules quoted in this thread so in fact allow it, following the convoluted logic.

I'd assume that's the intent and that's how FFG would FAQ it if they ever actually got round to it.

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 8:57 PM, Pooleman said:

I think we are expected to use a little common sense here.

The problem is that "common sense" means many things to many people. There are some things which are truly intuitive to the vast majority of people, but there are also many instances where a reading is not intuitive at all, and people simply use "common sense" to mean " my way of reading it" in an attempt to shame others into not arguing.

Furthermore, many rules and rulings are counter-intuitive altogether. A common sense reading may be fine for casual play, but someone who adheres too rigorously to them can often end up quite surprised in organized play when an opponent insists on enforcing rules-as-written. If you have a ruling that you and your play group can agree to, that's great; but it doesn't mean others can't or shouldn't continue seeking an official ruling, because the rules DO seem to disallow it, as written.

To clarify, no, you're not doing a maneuver or an action, but the card does explicitly say that the target performs a barrel roll or boost, and the rules for barrel roll and boost say that the template can't overlap.

On 11/10/2017 at 7:08 AM, joelgb said:

common sense says you can't use Feedback Array when cloacked, but you can

"I went to McDonald's instead of going to Burger King, as Burger King was blocked by traffic."

"I performed Feedback Array instead of performing an Attack, as attacks were blocked by a card effect."

Following the basic rules if the English language, I still fail to understand why people think you can't Feedback Array when cloaked. Common sense actually makes it perfectly clear that you can.

?

?2

?3

The rules only mention the template when the template coming in contact with something has an effect. Like a bomb, or preventing an action or maneuver. For the boost and barrel roll is specifies the movement template because the end result of the ship cannot overlap an obstacle. A result that causes overlap of either the ship or template prevents the action. They MUST specify the template because if they didn't and you were to perform a boost that would put you over a asteroid without touching it, it would be deemed a legal move as it IS legal in the case where you boost though another ship or going off the board and back on.

But in the case of the tractor beam, obstacles do not prevent the movement. As they do not prevent the movement, there is no reason to mention that the template is also allowed. The template is always allowed to go anywhere the ship is. Indeed the template is allowed to go places the ship cannot unless it is expressly forbidden.

3 hours ago, ge0rd1eb4lls said:

"I went to McDonald's instead of going to Burger King, as Burger King was blocked by traffic."

"I performed Feedback Array instead of performing an Attack, as attacks were blocked by a card effect."

Following the basic rules if the English language, I still fail to understand why people think you can't Feedback Array when cloaked. Common sense actually makes it perfectly clear that you can.

On 10/11/2017 at 10:16 AM, bgrelle said:

OK, yea that makes no sense at all with the new blinded pilot. I could see how it would still be used with the old one that just said you would roll 0 dice the next time you attacked, so then you still have an attack you can skip to use feedback, of course if you did that you would still have the old blinded face up since you didn't actually make an attack. But when it is the exact same wording on all four (asteroids, cloak token, new blinded pilot, & weapons disabled token) it should work the same for all four not be half one way and half another way. The only hope there is that emails have been wrong before.

No, common sense doesn't make it perfectly clear that you can use feedback array when cloaked because (see the bold section of my quoted post) half of the time you can't per the rules and half the time you can per somehow the same rule.

7 hours ago, xbeaker said:

in the case of the tractor beam, obstacles do not prevent the movement

The rules don't actually say that, you're twisting your interpretation to get the result you want. The tractor beam rules say to perform a straight boost or barrel roll, and that the ship may overlap obstacles, while the boost and barrel roll rules prohibit both the ship and template from overlapping obstacles.

7 hours ago, xbeaker said:

the template is allowed to go places the ship cannot unless it is expressly forbidden.

That's not a rule but a generalization based on all the movement rules, minus the case we're debating. Upgrade cards and pilot abilities all exist to change the rules to allow players to do things that weren't previously doable, so using that generalization as an argument is basically saying "you can't do X because up until now X has always been prohibited by the rules, even though this new card says to do X".

50 minutes ago, darthlurker said:

The rules don't actually say that, you're twisting your interpretation to get the result you want. The tractor beam rules say to perform a straight boost or barrel roll, and that the ship may overlap obstacles, while the boost and barrel roll rules prohibit both the ship and template from overlapping obstacles.

That's not a rule but a generalization based on all the movement rules, minus the case we're debating. Upgrade cards and pilot abilities all exist to change the rules to allow players to do things that weren't previously doable, so using that generalization as an argument is basically saying "you can't do X because up until now X has always been prohibited by the rules, even though this new card says to do X".

The template doesn't "exist" in the game. It is an abstract that represents ship movement. The only time it is mentioned is when it has a function, such as PREVENTING a move or action or triggering a bomb. The fact that the card says the ship CAN be placed on an obstacle means there is no need worry about the template. It is like arguing that boosting over another ship's base prevents a boost, as the boost card says the ship can't stop on the base and does not SPECIFICALLY state the template can cross it. I mean the barrel roll card doesn't specifically say that placing the template over open space is ok, so by this argument you can't barrel roll in open space. I know barrel roll and boost rules point out that the template cannot touch an obstacle. And I understand the argument that the tractor beam specifically calls out the ship (note is it says ship, NOT ships BASE) without mentioning the template. It is a flawed argument because it since it says the ship CAN touch an obstacle the template is a non-factor. They are one in the same in this case. Again, when the template has special rules, they are called out. You are breaking that precedent to shoehorn your argument in.

The best part about this particular rules lawering argument is that people are essentially saying "You can't be made to hit the obstacle if you hit the obstacle when you hit the obstacle unless you hit the obstacle without hitting the obstacle. After all, you can't normally CHOOSE to hit the obstacle by either hitting the obstacle OR by hitting the obstacle!"

I hate playing against Tractor Beams as much as anyone, but it makes absolutely no sense to me that the ship could be made to overlap but not if the template does. That seems like a super nit picky way to read the rules, purely out of a desire to nerf the ability. It’s annoying, sure, but there are plenty of ways to avoid it.

37 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

I understand the argument that the tractor beam specifically calls out the ship (note is it says ship, NOT ships BASE) without mentioning the template. It is a flawed argument because it since it says the ship CAN touch an obstacle the template is a non-factor. They are one in the same in this case. Ag ain, when the template has special rules, they are called out. You are breaking that precedent to shoehorn your argument in.

"Ship" and "ship base" are the same thing when referring to movement, it's just loose language by FFG. The reason I believe that can be found in Collision Detector: "[...] your ship and maneuver template can overlap obstacles ". This example breaks your precedent doubly, because 1) "ship" is clearly referring to "ship base" (and not both base and template), otherwise they wouldn't have been addressed separately, and (2) both are addressed separately despite being CAN abilities.

1 hour ago, xbeaker said:

The best part about this particular rules lawering argument is that people are essentially saying "You can't be made to hit the obstacle if you hit the obstacle when you hit the obstacle unless you hit the obstacle without hitting the obstacle. After all, you can't normally CHOOSE to hit the obstacle by either hitting the obstacle OR by hitting the obstacle!"

I've read that 3 times and still don't get what you're trying to say, but maybe it's because it's late here.

44 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

I hate playing against Tractor Beams as much as anyone, but it makes absolutely no sense to me that the ship could be made to overlap but not if the template does. That seems like a super nit picky way to read the rules, purely out of a desire to nerf the ability. It’s annoying, sure, but there are plenty of ways to avoid it.

I completely agree that it makes no sense from an implementation standpoint, which is why I sent an email asking about this last week, but the rules as intended and rules as written appear to disagree. I'm probably the person that uses tractor beams the most often in my play group and would be very sad to not be able to overlap the template with obstacles, but my interests have no bearing on what the rules say.

12 hours ago, xbeaker said:

The template doesn't "exist" in the game. It is an abstract that represents ship movement. The only time it is mentioned is when it has a function, such as PREVENTING a move or action or triggering a bomb. The fact that the card says the ship CAN be placed on an obstacle means there is no need worry about the template. It is like arguing that boosting over another ship's base prevents a boost, as the boost card says the ship can't stop on the base and does not SPECIFICALLY state the template can cross it. I mean the barrel roll card doesn't specifically say that placing the template over open space is ok, so by this argument you can't barrel roll in open space. I know barrel roll and boost rules point out that the template cannot touch an obstacle. And I understand the argument that the tractor beam specifically calls out the ship (note is it says ship, NOT ships BASE) without mentioning the template. It is a flawed argument because it since it says the ship CAN touch an obstacle the template is a non-factor. They are one in the same in this case. Again, when the template has special rules, they are called out. You are breaking that precedent to shoehorn your argument in.

The problem is, the Tractor Beam rules explicitly say to do a Barrel Roll or Boost, and the rules for those explicitly say the template can't overlap. You can't just say "this overrides part of the rule,so it overrides the rest of the rule, too!" otherwise, what's the point in even referencing the rule?

I agree that allowing the template to overlap is likely the intent , and I don't think I'd personally have any issue with people playing that way in casual play, but it's not the rules-as-written.