The alternative to non-bumping K4 is to make it an action rather than an acquisition to make it a stress issue. You probably don't want to double down like the x7 nerf, mind, but it has always been a bit too much for an offensive crew slot in my opinion. In general I feel like any 'freebie' acquire effect should always have one way for your opponent to turn it off.

Personally I'd be fine with making Advanced Sensors action bar only to take the edge off some of the 'perfect information' issue, even though I don't think it would have a massive effect on most of its uses.

Turret Accuracy Correctors has been pretty dumb since the Ghost came out as well. So those changes makes sense to me, even if they're not at the top of everyone's list.

These suggestions treat the symptoms, not the cause. Nym, the Jumpmaster, and the Lancer are the reasons the cards in question are complained about. It's the same as Mindlink - the card itself is not the problem, it's the underpriced and over-capable ships that can take it (in this case the Lancer and Fenn 'Underpriced-As-All-****' Rau).

Accuracy Corrector in particular has only ever been a problem when allowed to combine with Autoblaster Turret - a combination that FFG should never have put together, yet they've now done it twice.

5 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

Accuracy Corrector in particular has only ever been a problem when allowed to combine with Autoblaster Turret - a combination that FFG should never have put together, yet they've now done it twice.

But the trouble with saying that is that it basically means that these cards put an automatic stop on certain combinations of upgrade slots. If the reason we can't combine turret upgrades and system upgrades is accuracy correctors' interactions with both TLTs and ABTs then it seems like a better choice to change it.

2 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

But the trouble with saying that is that it basically means that these cards put an automatic stop on certain combinations of upgrade slots. If the reason we can't combine turret upgrades and system upgrades is accuracy correctors' interactions with both TLTs and ABTs then it seems like a better choice to change it.

The reason we can't combine turret upgrades and system upgrades is a PS10 barrel-rolling pilot at an aggressive points cost & efficiency. It's been completely fine on the Ghost.

I would like this K4 nerf, though. It retains the power to TL through stress for Zuckuss YVs, but removes the defensive power for Expertise Dengar to bump, removing one source of damage, and then attacking the other with full mods anyways.

I understand where the K4 nerf calls come from, but there's so many other things that work when bumped that nobody seems fussed by. It feels like K4 is getting caught in the Dengar crossfire rather than being a problem himself - you've paid good points for K4 you should get a good ability.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The reason we can't combine turret upgrades and system upgrades is a PS10 barrel-rolling pilot at an aggressive points cost & efficiency. It's been completely fine on the Ghost.

Fine in the grand scheme of meta-wing, maybe, still as dumb as whatever I can get away with saying in terms of an individual match. In both Heragator and ABT flavours it's an obnoxious combo to have in the game.

24 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

These suggestions treat the symptoms, not the cause. Nym, the Jumpmaster, and the Lancer are the reasons the cards in question are complained about. It's the same as Mindlink - the card itself is not the problem, it's the underpriced and over-capable ships that can take it (in this case the Lancer and Fenn 'Underpriced-As-All-****' Rau).

Accuracy Corrector in particular has only ever been a problem when allowed to combine with Autoblaster Turret - a combination that FFG should never have put together, yet they've now done it twice.

AC is also problematic - if anything, more problematic, especially in the current low agility meta - with TLT. It's not quite such a reliable 32 damage, but it takes place over 10-ish times the area.

The Ghost has also been a problem in a couple of cases - Herahsoka and Kanan/Biggs. The former went away with the PS races because Ahsoka Just Dies, but Kanan/Biggs is still kind of problematic. I suspect it's a lot better than its showings on Meta-Wing indicate, but it's not played at high level mostly because it's BORING not because it's bad.

11 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I understand where the K4 nerf calls come from, but there's so many other things that work when bumped that nobody seems fussed by. It feels like K4 is getting caught in the Dengar crossfire rather than being a problem himself - you've paid good points for K4 you should get a good ability.

Yup. it's priced on a par with basically every other 'get a free aciton with some restrictions' ability - EI, PTL, Comm Relay, Predator, Dengar, RecSpec, etc etc etc. 3 points is the going rate for a bonus action. it's semi-broken because it combines so well with Expertise, unhinged, and multiple torpedoes, not because it's broken on any other platform than the Jumpmaster and maybe the Shadowcaster - and even there, only ketsu, Assaj wants Latts far more, and Ketsu isn't that good.

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

AC is also problematic - if anything, more problematic, especially in the current low agility meta - with TLT. It's not quite such a reliable 32 damage, but it takes place over 10-ish times the area.

More an issue with TLT than Accuracy Corrector. Even if you nerf AC, you're still going to see TLT causing very reliable amounts of damage against low agility ships. Treat the cause, not the symptom.

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The Ghost has also been a problem in a couple of cases - Herahsoka and Kanan/Biggs. The former went away with the PS races because Ahsoka Just Dies, but Kanan/Biggs is still kind of problematic. I suspect it's a lot better than its showings on Meta-Wing indicate, but it's not played at high level mostly because it's BORING not because it's bad.

And this is more to do with another meta-warping pilot than it does AC, in this case Biggs.

Biggs, the JM5K, TLT... all known (for a long time) to be major influences on the meta - so why are we tip-toeing around the issues they cause and trying to nerf them by proxy? We've already seen that nerfing contributing factors doesn't work with Deadeye, with R4 Agromech etc - all that happens is players turn to another combination of upgrades and keep using the problematic platforms. Treat the cause, not the symptom.

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Treat the cause, not the symptom.

The system/turret combination is still another cause, no matter how many times you try to mantra chant us to death.

2 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

More an issue with TLT than Accuracy Corrector. Even if you nerf AC, you're still going to see TLT causing very reliable amounts of damage against low agility ships. Treat the cause, not the symptom.

And this is more to do with another meta-warping pilot than it does AC, in this case Biggs.

Biggs, the JM5K, TLT... all known (for a long time) to be major influences on the meta - so why are we tip-toeing around the issues they cause and trying to nerf them by proxy? We've already seen that nerfing contributing factors doesn't work with Deadeye, with R4 Agromech etc - all that happens is players turn to another combination of upgrades and keep using the problematic platforms. Treat the cause, not the symptom.

I love Dengar, I just wish he was on a balanced platform, there are times I would like to fly him, but choose not to because he is on "That ship". I love Imperials but with all the auto damage and green dice not being worth a ****, whats the point of 3 Agi?

They have PS'd and auto damaged a lot of ships out of the game because of the current upgrade shenanigans, I feel they have turned it from a fly your favourite space ships game, to you pretty much have to fly 1-2 lists from each faction if you want to get anywhere in the competitive play scene.

17 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

17 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

15 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

More an issue with TLT than Accuracy Corrector. Even if you nerf AC, you're still going to see TLT causing very reliable amounts of damage against low agility ships. Treat the cause, not the symptom.

And this is more to do with another meta-warping pilot than it does AC, in this case Biggs.

Biggs, the JM5K, TLT... all known (for a long time) to be major influences on the meta - so why are we tip-toeing around the issues they cause and trying to nerf them by proxy? We've already seen that nerfing contributing factors doesn't work with Deadeye, with R4 Agromech etc - all that happens is players turn to another combination of upgrades and keep using the problematic platforms. Treat the cause, not the symptom.

I don't disagree with pretty much any of this.

TLT is a cause, the Jumpmaster being too cheap is a cause, Nym being too high PS is a cause. Bomblet being too cheap is probably a cause as well, although it's only worthwhile on high PS pilots so probably not?

Or to put it another way, if AC was genuinely problematic, it would be problematic on every platform. It's not. Only on the ones that have turret slots.

16 hours ago, pchappel said:

For me the biggest difference is that the x7 was a cost reduction AND and an action equivalent... With the K4, it is a 3 point (and crew) cost for the effect. Pretty similar to the R2-D2 effect, dial in a Green, get "x". Guess I'm just not seeing this as a major problem as it is not a cheap Crew to get the TL... But that's just me I guess...

I disagree, but I see your point.

For me, the x7 has two functions that are independent: one is to reduce the cost because they made a mistake, the other is to improve action efficiency. Taken together they result in a total of -2. Also the requirement of 3+ speed is harsher than ‚green‘, so it should be cheaper.

Changeing K4 to no overlap/bump would put him closer to where he should be, possibly a bit overcorrected.

I would totally adjust R2-D2 by the way

4 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

I notice you never actually answered Ryan's question, and just went straight for the ad hominem attack.

Good for you. If I was defending a suggestion as tenuous as yours, I'd probably have gone for the ad hominem as well.

You make me laugh! your so funny sometimes and you don't even realize it. The fact that you actually have a video saved with the answer tells me all I need to know. Keep it up I need a laugh or two everyday.

1. I don't like it. I'm not sure what fix would be better, or if it needs a fix, but still.

2. I agree with @Stay On The Leader and @ficklegreendice that the issue is Twin Laser Turret.

3. This seems entirely fair. There are a few 3-point upgrades which grant an additional action which also require you not to overlap an obstacle or other ship. Recon Specialist requires this, so does Push the Limit. K4 Security Droid ought to be the same way.

Just now, theBitterFig said:

1. I don't like it. I'm not sure what fix would be better, or if it needs a fix, but still.

2. I agree with @Stay On The Leader and @ficklegreendice that the issue is Twin Laser Turret.

3. This seems entirely fair. There are a few 3-point upgrades which grant an additional action which also require you not to overlap an obstacle or other ship. Recon Specialist requires this, so does Push the Limit. K4 Security Droid ought to be the same way.

But those don't require you to have done a green move. They have their own restrictions.

Complete list of Scum ships with good green dials, crew slots, and ordnance to take full advantage of a target lock from K4 Security Droid:

1. Jumpmaster 5000

5 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

You make me laugh! your so funny sometimes and you don't even realize it. The fact that you actually have a video saved with the answer tells me all I need to know. Keep it up I need a laugh or two everyday.

So are you. You realize finding that gif and using it is the work of maybe a minute? And that, while not the most helpful of questions, it is still a legitimate question. Heck, you aren't even trying to discuss points brought up by @FTS Gecko later in the thread, which is far more edifying to discuss than what you are currently hung up on.

As has been pointed out by several people, you are suggesting nerfs to symptoms, not causes. That has proven to be ineffective in the long run. If you are actually interested in positive change, maybe actually listen and discuss with these people?

11 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Complete list of Scum ships with good green dials, crew slots, and ordnance to take full advantage of a target lock from K4 Security Droid:

1. Jumpmaster 5000

I know you're just trying to be cute about it and everything, but it doesn't really take much in the way of greens to get a good amount of use out of K4.

12 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Heck, you aren't even trying to discuss points brought up by @FTS Gecko later in the thread.

Yeah, there's a reason for that. It's the same reason why he hasn't responded to anyone else's reservations either; it doesn't suit his agenda.

1 minute ago, __underscore__ said:

I know you're just trying to be cute about it and everything, but it doesn't really take much in the way of greens to get a good amount of use out of K4.

Good, because for 3 points and a valuable crew slot I would expect a good amount of use!

Ignore this.

Just now, Rakaydos said:

2. Lok Revinant with Unhinged Astromech.

Go ahead and try to build that on a squad builder of your choice, then get back to me ;-)