5 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

No dispute there. At the same time, they can only force it if the other player is bidding high. I do understand, there are going to be those situations where the player feels they HAVE to bid high to get a result they want. Maybe it's fair, maybe not. But they are still involved in the process that results in them potentially losing that honor, and should be one of the things they consider when deciding to take that action. That goes for drawing cards as well, not just duels. Do they really need to draw 5 cards? Is it worth the honor they will potentially pay to draw that many cards?

Exactly. There are no "forced swings". If you think your opponent is bidding low on Honor and you cannot afford an Honor swing then bid low also - nothing is forcing you to bid high.

1 minute ago, Joelist said:

Exactly. There are no "forced swings". If you think your opponent is bidding low on Honor and you cannot afford an Honor swing then bid low also - nothing is forcing you to bid high.

And this is why the mechanic is not "broken"...

We can't fix "broken" people...no rules change will ever fix that.

Just now, Zesu Shadaban said:

I think this is at the core of one of the things we'll have to agree to disagree on. Unless one participant is clearly outmatching the other to the point where bidding honor makes little to no difference, the outcome isn't a forgone conclusion...or at least it shouldn't be, if the players are flexible in their strategies.

Wait, I am going to hold your feet to the fire, right here. You didn't like the Shiba Method because it was too random. But here you are arguing that neither player should be able to know the outcome. Take a minute and think about it. Because it sounds like, from this quote, you are arguing for some randomness.

1 minute ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

And since you brought it up, I ask you, why would an honorable clan be dishonorable over card draw? Even if they bid "1" and the opponent bids "1". The instant "Contingency Plan" hits the table on the opponents side...dishonor (ie you lose an honor). There isn't a way for honorable clans to act honorably. It is not an honor dial...it is a "DISHONOR DIAL". That is what we should call it.

Well, call me a pessimist, because I don't believe in a 100% honorable clan. To me, honor is a more relative matter than that. It's not that Lion is 100% honorable, but they are much more honorable than the other clans. Scorpion isn't 100% dishonorable, they are just more infamous and considered dishonorable by the other clans. Any clan is prone to take dishonorable actions, doubly so if they think they can get away with it.

54 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Just to clarify, Contingency Plan is restricted to reducing the bid to 0, can't bid lower than that. Bayushi Manipulator can only increase your own bid, he can't reduce it, and he can't change your opponent's bid. So let's say in the example that 3 Contingency Plans and 3 Bayushi Manipulators are used. We'll say Player A bid 1, and Player B bid 5. Player A can't decrease their bid with Bayushi Manipulator, but let's just say they have their own Contingency Plan and reduce their bid to 0. So now they're at 0 - 5. Yes, Player B can then play 3 Contingency Plans and activate 3 Bayushi Manipulators. So for reasons unknown, Player B increases their bid with these 6 cards to 11. Congratulations, Player B has won the bid 0 - 11. He then loses all his honor and loses the game. But what I fail to understand is, why would Player B do this to themselves unless they are intentionally throwing the game? Unless you have some completely different scenario in mind for how Player A is using the cards to force Player B to lose?

Right? Its like he said "Guys, this is broken! If you bid 5 and don't defend your provinces you'll lose the game! How can a game let this happen?"

Its so crazy I wonder if he is simply trolling with multiple accounts just to garner attention. For what its worth, this chump is a master baiter as I've returned to this topic to respond several times no matter how worthless a topic this even is for discussion. FFG Won't change their system, so what does it matter if this person doesn't like it.

The "Shiba Method" is even worse - he complains about the inability to control the outcome, and then recommends DICE as a solution? That has got to be the worst solution yet. The problem with focus values, and dueling with cards in ol5r is you either had these cards in your deck or not. Like some games would be played without the favor because both players weren't typically in a position to lobby for it, and thus had no real reason to lobby for it even when it was available... Now this guy wants us to carry a cup and dice *just in case* someone duels against my deck that has zero dueling actions in it???

This isn't a "dueling game." The standard method of playing is as detailed in the phases of the game. 1) buy characters, 2) fight characters in MIL and POL conflicts. Play actions, try to win. 3) Discard characters, 4) rinse and repeat.

The only thing of value to come from this thread is that I will certainly include Contingency Plan in my Crane + Unicorn deck I'm putting together for this Thursday L5R night at my lcg. The ability to bid 0 and take an honor in addition to the win condition is great!

6 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Wait, I am going to hold your feet to the fire, right here. You didn't like the Shiba Method because it was too random. But here you are arguing that neither player should be able to know the outcome. Take a minute and think about it. Because it sounds like, from this quote, you are arguing for some randomness.

A die roll is Random...

A head to head choice is still a choice, even if the result is variable.

1 minute ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Well, call me a pessimist, because I don't believe in a 100% honorable clan. To me, honor is a more relative matter than that. It's not that Lion is 100% honorable, but they are much more honorable than the other clans. Scorpion isn't 100% dishonorable, they are just more infamous and considered dishonorable by the other clans. Any clan is prone to take dishonorable actions, doubly so if they think they can get away with it.

And THIS is what the entire Honor system in the game is premised on and they have been open about it for some time.

Honor in the game exists only in relation to the Honor of the opposing Clan. Those honor chits do not represent your absolute "Honor score" but represent your Honor relative to the opposing Clan.

1 minute ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Wait, I am going to hold your feet to the fire, right here. You didn't like the Shiba Method because it was too random. But here you are arguing that neither player should be able to know the outcome. Take a minute and think about it. Because it sounds like, from this quote, you are arguing for some randomness.

I'm a fire chicken, a little flame on the bottoms of my feet don't bother me

Here's a comparison. I find the current method more like a game of rock, paper, scissors. Each participant knows what they are going to throw, they can guess what their opponent will throw, but ultimately they can't be certain what the outcome will be. When you're rolling dice, you are dealing with percentages and probability, you can predict the chances of each side coming up in the roll, but you can't choose which number you will roll. You could use the dice and choose which side of the die to play, concealing it with your cup, but if you're using a separate dishonor die, what incentive would either player have to choose anything but the highest number on the regular die?

2 minutes ago, shosuko said:

master baiter

Really...BOOO!

7 minutes ago, Joelist said:

Exactly. There are no "forced swings". If you think your opponent is bidding low on Honor and you cannot afford an Honor swing then bid low also - nothing is forcing you to bid high.

You just took the extreme case and made it into the norm. We were talking about what was POSSIBLE...not the norm.

1 minute ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

I'm a fire chicken, a little flame on the bottoms of my feet don't bother me

Here's a comparison. I find the current method more like a game of rock, paper, scissors. Each participant knows what they are going to throw, they can guess what their opponent will throw, but ultimately they can't be certain what the outcome will be. When you're rolling dice, you are dealing with percentages and probability, you can predict the chances of each side coming up in the roll, but you can't choose which number you will roll. You could use the dice and choose which side of the die to play, concealing it with your cup, but if you're using a separate dishonor die, what incentive would either player have to choose anything but the highest number on the regular die?

But you can give your duelist the Fine Katana (or two), or another attachment that grants military bonuses. You can play "Banzai". So, you absolutely can set the stage for the duel in your favor, but it is not a forgone conclusion when "unbuffed" characters have a 1 or 2 point gap between their skills, talking about the Shiba Method.

But hey, I will take another person idea. We do not need to use the thing I came up with. I just want a better dueling system, not a "dishonor" system. It should reflect the ideas of honorable combat, not dishonorable combat. There should be a way to cheat, and become dishonorable...if a player chooses it. And if someone cheats in the duel there should be a punishment for it. And it should not be an auto-win situation between nominal characters. This should be doable. If I can come up with the Shiba Method in 30 minutes, FFG should be able to do better.

14 minutes ago, Joelist said:

Honor in the game exists only in relation to the Honor of the opposing Clan. Those honor chits do not represent your absolute "Honor score" but represent your Honor relative to the opposing Clan.

You are wrong. Each stronghold has an honor amount on the card. It does not change base on who you play, that starting amount is static.

Just to throw it out there, I did go ahead and submit a Rules Query on the question of whether there is intended to be (or should be) a maximum limit on increasing honor dial bids. If nothing else, I figure it gives a point of consideration for ongoing design, especially if we end up with additional abilities that allow you to manipulate bid values. I'll post the response here whenever I end up getting one.

Quote

I just want a better dueling system, not a "dishonor" system. It should reflect the ideas of honorable combat, not dishonorable combat. There should be a way to cheat, and become dishonorable...if a player chooses it. And if someone cheats in the duel there should be a punishment for it.

I understand it's only 1 out of the 3 cards, but Duelist Training does give you the honorable option of discarding cards as the cost of your duel (and only if you bid higher than your opponent). And you still have the option to pay honor instead. I'm not saying that we're definitely getting more cards to turn dueling into what you want, but this seems at least a step in the direction you're looking for. Let's see what else FFG has in store for us for dueling. Maybe this imperial cycle will even give us some interesting interaction between dueling and the imperial favor!

15 minutes ago, Joelist said:

And THIS is what the entire Honor system in the game is premised on and they have been open about it for some time.

Yes, we are talking about the honor system. I know FFG has been open about it for a while, and I read their rules. This is how I know the dueling system is broken.

1 minute ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

You are wrong. Each stronghold has an honor amount on the card. It does not change base on who you play, that starting amount is static.

Nope, he's right.

Relative to another clan means they are all about evenly honorable...

Just now, Zesu Shadaban said:

I understand it's only 1 out of the 3 cards, but Duelist Training does give you the honorable option of discarding cards as the cost of your duel (and only if you bid higher than your opponent). And you still have the option to pay honor instead. I'm not saying that we're definitely getting more cards to turn dueling into what you want, but this seems at least a step in the direction you're looking for. Let's see what else FFG has in store for us for dueling. Maybe this imperial cycle will even give us some interesting interaction between dueling and the imperial favor!

I hear you... But that is one duel (3 cards, but only one type of duel). One particular duel being "better", does not make a dueling system.

11 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

But you can give your duelist the Fine Katana (or two), or another attachment that grants military bonuses. You can play "Banzai". So, you absolutely can set the stage for the duel in your favor, but it is not a forgone conclusion when "unbuffed" characters have a 1 or 2 point gap between their skills, talking about the Shiba Method.

But hey, I will take another person idea. We do not need to use the thing I came up with. I just want a better dueling system, not a "dishonor" system. It should reflect the ideas of honorable combat, not dishonorable combat. There should be a way to cheat, and become dishonorable...if a player chooses it. And if someone cheats in the duel there should be a punishment for it. And it should not be an auto-win situation between nominal characters. This should be doable. If I can come up with the Shiba Method in 30 minutes, FFG should be able to do better.

I have an idea - play the game the way it is. FFG isn't going to change the rules, what they will do is print more cards. Cards that give different duel initiations, as well as different duel reactions. There may even be a duel that is actually for honor. Every duel is not for honor. Currently NO duel is for honor in this game. Dueling is not inherently honorable. Dueling rather than fighting a war isn't for honor, it is to save bodies. Dueling to kill someone isn't for honor, it is to kill them.

The only thing I could possibly concede about the dueling system is that a tie should have some effect rather than cancel the duel out. Since ties in conflicts are wins for the attacker, I would accept that a tie in a duel should be a win for the initiating duelist... Other than that - the way it works now is *perfect* and nothing anyone says will change FFG's mind. What the system needs are more cards. You have 3 different duels and no specific duel reactions or attachments. Come back at the next deluxe box and see if you still can't stand it, because the rules won't change from here to there I guarantee you that.

2 minutes ago, kraken78 said:

5 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

You are wrong. Each stronghold has an honor amount on the card. It does not change base on who you play, that starting amount is static.

Nope, he's right.

Relative to another clan means they are all about evenly honorable...

No, he isn't. It is only when the two clans are paired side by side that you are able to get any kind of comparison, but right now, it does not matter who I play against, if I am Phoenix, I get 11 honor. Every game I start. doesn't matter where...I get 11.

He said, "Those honor chits do not represent your absolute "Honor score" but represent your Honor relative to the opposing Clan."

The fact that the number is static MEANS it is absolute. You can't get to the "relative" part until you part the clans side by side. And even then, the amount does not change...is it, in a word, absolute.

4 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I have an idea - play the game the way it is. FFG isn't going to change the rules, what they will do is print more cards. Cards that give different duel initiations, as well as different duel reactions. There may even be a duel that is actually for honor. Every duel is not for honor. Currently NO duel is for honor in this game. Dueling is not inherently honorable. Dueling rather than fighting a war isn't for honor, it is to save bodies. Dueling to kill someone isn't for honor, it is to kill them.

3

Granted the characters and cards that start the duels do not themselves say anything about honor being won, the nature of the dial giving honor to the lower bidder, makes the duels for honor.

But you are correct. FFG will not change the rules, but they also will not simply just print new cards. We will see changes in the basic wording of things to clear things up.

And Shiba Jaimi, I think I can word to you in person a better understanding of the dueling that you might like. Next gathering though.

Just now, Shiba Jaimi said:

No, he isn't. It is only when the two clans are paired side by side that you are able to get any kind of comparison, but right now, it does not matter who I play against, if I am Phoenix, I get 11 honor. Every game I start. doesn't matter where...I get 11.

He said, "Those honor chits do not represent your absolute "Honor score" but represent your Honor relative to the opposing Clan."

The fact that the number is static MEANS it is absolute. You can't get to the "relative" part until you part the clans side by side. And even then, the amount does not change...is it, in a word, absolute.

No it does not. You never USE the Honor except side by side with another Clan - it does nothing by itself. It doesn't change your deckbuilding or anything.

5 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I have an idea - play the game the way it is.

The more I am proven right, the more I want to say, "NO!"

5 minutes ago, shosuko said:

FFG isn't going to change the rules, what they will do is print more cards.

I hope this is not true. Because, I will quit playing and people like me, people that want a better game, will quit. And the game will disappear. Then none of use get to play in Rokugan.

8 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Cards that give different duel initiations, as well as different duel reactions.

It won't matter if the underlying rules are broken.

8 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Currently NO duel is for honor in this game.

But you have to risk honor in every duel.

9 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Dueling is not inherently honorable.

No, it is DISHONORABLE. Every single duel...

10 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Dueling rather than fighting a war isn't for honor... Dueling to kill someone isn't for honor

I am fairly certain, there have a lot of duels fought over a point honor. I mean...A LOT!

13 minutes ago, shosuko said:

The only thing I could possibly concede about the dueling system is that a tie should have some effect rather than cancel the duel out. Since ties in conflicts are wins for the attacker, I would accept that a tie in a duel should be a win for the initiating duelist... Other than that - the way it works now is *perfect* and nothing anyone says will change FFG's mind.

But you already changed you mind. You just made an argument for CHANGING THE DUELING RULES!!! By the way, good idea. There should be an effect to the game for a tie. I would be happy if they both bowed, with no possibility of canceling it.

16 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Come back at the next deluxe box and see if you still can't stand it, because the rules won't change from here to there I guarantee you that.

You could very well be right. And if you are, you won't have to worry about me commenting on how the dueling rules are broken, I will have stopped playing. Me, and a number of other people. Would less people playing the game make you happier?

14 minutes ago, DocRosie said:

Granted the characters and cards that start the duels do not themselves say anything about honor being won, the nature of the dial giving honor to the lower bidder, makes the duels for honor.

But you are correct. FFG will not change the rules, but they also will not simply just print new cards. We will see changes in the basic wording of things to clear things up.

And Shiba Jaimi, I think I can word to you in person a better understanding of the dueling that you might like. Next gathering though.

Oh, my gawd!!! DOC-ROSIE IN DA HOUSE!!!

Who let my dawgs out!!!

16 minutes ago, DocRosie said:

And Shiba Jaimi, I think I can word to you in person a better understanding of the dueling that you might like. Next gathering though.

Whether it is just you and me, or a moot of all the Lords...I am in!!!

Text me what your weekend looks like.

18 minutes ago, Joelist said:

No it does not. You never USE the Honor except side by side with another Clan - it does nothing by itself. It doesn't change your deckbuilding or anything.

But it is always the same at the start of the game...right?

6 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

I hope this is not true. Because, I will quit playing and people like me, people that want a better game, will quit. And the game will disappear. Then none of use get to play in Rokugan.

You must have no experience with these things... Currently there is actually wide-spread acceptance and enjoyment of the game and dueling system as printed. There is no backlash that FFG should fear. If a few people are so insistent that dueling is so bad and leave, and we lose what? maybe 1 person (you?) maybe up to 5 if your "friends" are real... compared to the rest of us that have bought all of the stock and are anxiously awaiting even more cards to add to the collection... FFG doesn't need to change anything, just produce more.

FFG isn't going to change because some internet troll draws out 10 pages of back and forth over a topic. While you are clearly passionate about this, you are also clearly wasting your time. If your line is drawn in the sand, and its "this rule needs to change or I quit" then I recommend just quitting now... FFG won't miss you.