7 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Just to clarify, Contingency Plan is restricted to reducing the bid to 0, can't bid lower than that. Bayushi Manipulator can only increase your own bid, he can't reduce it, and he can't change your opponent's bid. So let's say in the example that 3 Contingency Plans and 3 Bayushi Manipulators are used. We'll say Player A bid 1, and Player B bid 5. Player A can't decrease their bid with Bayushi Manipulator, but let's just say they have their own Contingency Plan and reduce their bid to 0. So now they're at 0 - 5. Yes, Player B can then play 3 Contingency Plans and activate 3 Bayushi Manipulators. So for reasons unknown, Player B increases their bid with these 6 cards to 11. Congratulations, Player B has won the bid 0 - 11. He then loses all his honor and loses the game. But what I fail to understand is, why would Player B do this to themselves unless they are intentionally throwing the game? Unless you have some completely different scenario in mind for how Player A is using the cards to force Player B to lose?

But you really Win the **** out of that Duel!

I'm sorry I didn't realize this earlier Zesu, the honor loss would go to the Scorpion Player not their opponent! So this has been quite the moot point.

1 minute ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

The only thing fishy from his post is the Kraken in his name.

That was a terrible pun...

I challenge you to a duel!

2 minutes ago, kraken78 said:

But you really Win the **** out of that Duel!

I'm sorry I didn't realize this earlier Zesu, the honor loss would go to the Scorpion Player not their opponent! So this has been quite the moot point.

Yup, Shiba's example was ludicrous in the extreme especially when you realize that all of the card actions have to be done BY SCORPION.

Just now, kraken78 said:

That was a terrible pun...

I challenge you to a duel!

Okay, but fair warning, I play Phoenix Dishonor, so expect a bid of 5...I mean 0!

7 minutes ago, kraken78 said:

However the "head to head" decision making still interests me.

I am with you... I liked that part.

7 minutes ago, kraken78 said:

I purposefully lose approx. 50% of my duels specifically to cause honor losses and card losses. Even if I accidently win I get the BOW effect. The strategy is great in my opinion and pretty difficult to abuse.

Sure, in a "dishonor" dueling system, this is a fantastic idea. Excellent stratagem. Noting wrong with the strategy. But I am going to point out something, and this is where it gets unplayable for me.

Now, among people and teams that are in conflict over something worth having, none of them walk into the conflict to lose on purpose. That is called taking a dive, it is considered cheating and, usually, that person or team is penalized for it. You are admitting that your version of the Crab Clan, takes dives, half the time, in order to try to win. Does that thought sit nicely with what the Crab Clan is supposed to be? Like I said, "Excellent stratagem, fantastic idea...using dueling to force your opponent to lose cards/honor." But is that what the Crab Clan of Rokugan actually stand for?

This is the part that chews at me. If I pick up a Crab Deck...I will defend at all costs. I will become the beat stick and pummel the world unto my will, I will sacrifice my own brother to make sure you do not cross the bridge. And I will be proud of that, even if I lose. That is the Crab Clan.

1 minute ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

I am with you... I liked that part.

Sure, in a "dishonor" dueling system, this is a fantastic idea. Excellent stratagem. Noting wrong with the strategy. But I am going to point out something, and this is where it gets unplayable for me.

Now, among people and teams that are in conflict over something worth having, none of them walk into the conflict to lose on purpose. That is called taking a dive, it is considered cheating and, usually, that person or team is penalized for it. You are admitting that your version of the Crab Clan, takes dives, half the time, in order to try to win. Does that thought sit nicely with what the Crab Clan is supposed to be? Like I said, "Excellent stratagem, fantastic idea...using dueling to force your opponent to lose cards/honor." But is that what the Crab Clan of Rokugan actually stand for?

This is the part that chews at me. If I pick up a Crab Deck...I will defend at all costs. I will become the beat stick and pummel the world unto my will, I will sacrifice my own brother to make sure you do not cross the bridge. And I will be proud of that, even if I lose. That is the Crab Clan.

The Crab just try to survive...If that means someone eats a katana...so be it...

Duty > Honor

I dunno, I hear those Yasuki fellows are pretty wily...and I've heard mixed things about the Kuni, too.

I'm not sure he's the best example for the point you're trying to make. It's still his choice, as the player, to duel the way he does. The rules aren't forcing him to "take a dive." That's his choice. I'm not sure that's really any different than, for example, playing an RPG character who is atypical of their clan. And when it comes down to it, adhering to clan flavor and such is really an in-depth measure of roleplay applied to the game.

3 minutes ago, Joelist said:

Yup, Shiba's example was ludicrous in the extreme especially when you realize that all of the card actions have to be done BY SCORPION.

How many times do I have to say it? I never said it was likely.

I said, "This should not be possible!! Nothing should be able to end a game on the first turn, in the first conflict, in the first action!!"

THAT was my point.

1 minute ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

I dunno, I hear those Yasuki fellows are pretty wily...and I've heard mixed things about the Kuni, too.

I'm not sure he's the best example for the point you're trying to make. It's still his choice, as the player, to duel the way he does. The rules aren't forcing him to "take a dive." That's his choice. I'm not sure that's really any different than, for example, playing an RPG character who is atypical of their clan. And when it comes down to it, adhering to clan flavor and such is really an in-depth measure of roleplay applied to the game.

Well, in RPG I almost always played as a Kuni Shugenja...The ends justify the means...always. As long as it was for the benefit of the Clan and Rokugan.

3 minutes ago, kraken78 said:

The Crab just try to survive...If that means someone eats a katana...so be it...

Duty > Honor

Ok, as an L5R player... This is pillow talk for me. Wny? Cause NOW you are talking Crab Clan. Now I fell like grabbing a deck. And even if I lose, we can be joyful over who ate the katana. Why? Because honor means HONOR and duty means DUTY...and you took a stand right where the Crab Clan belongs, feeding someone a metal thing with sharp edges.

I just fell in love with you!!! Be my valentine, please?

3 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

How many times do I have to say it? I never said it was likely.

I said, "This should not be possible!! Nothing should be able to end a game on the first turn, in the first conflict, in the first action!!"

THAT was my point.

But it would be the Scorpion player that lost...not his opponent. It would be a first turn intentional loss...not a win.

2 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

How many times do I have to say it? I never said it was likely.

I said, "This should not be possible!! Nothing should be able to end a game on the first turn, in the first conflict, in the first action!!"

THAT was my point.

Okay...I don't necessarily disagree with that, although in the example given, the player losing has to do it to themselves. This isn't a dueling issue however, but a honor dial issue. By the same principle, there's nothing to stop a player increasing their card bid in the same manner, to draw an absurd number of cards. If the potential for increasing the bid is concerning, why not propose a clarification that honor bids can't be increased above 6 or 7? That would prevent players from dishonoring themselves out, although there is the side effect of restricting players with very high honor from making an all out bid for cards (though there is some risk I suppose from them accidentally decking themselves and dishonoring out that way).

4 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

How many times do I have to say it? I never said it was likely.

I said, "This should not be possible!! Nothing should be able to end a game on the first turn, in the first conflict, in the first action!!"

THAT was my point.

It is much worse than unlikely. It is actually impossible barring a phenomenally stupid Scorpion player.

Why on earth would Scorpion use the three Manipulators and three Contingency Plans? Positing ridiculous situations and then claiming the system is broken is just hysterical nonsense.

2 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Okay...I don't necessarily disagree with that, although in the example given, the player losing has to do it to themselves. This isn't a dueling issue however, but a honor dial issue. By the same principle, there's nothing to stop a player increasing their card bid in the same manner, to draw an absurd number of cards. If the potential for increasing the bid is concerning, why not propose a clarification that honor bids can't be increased above 6 or 7? That would prevent players from dishonoring themselves out, although there is the side effect of restricting players with very high honor from making an all out bid for cards (though there is some risk I suppose from them accidentally decking themselves and dishonoring out that way).

Although in terms of "flavor"...

It would be very "Scorpion-like" to intentionally dishonor themselves out of every game against a certain clan to play Kingmaker.

Let's hope they do this at the Winter Court, cause I'm actually sick of playing against Scorpions and losing.

1 minute ago, kraken78 said:

But it would be the Scorpion player that lost...not his opponent. It would be a first turn intentional loss...not a win.

1 minute ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Okay...I don't necessarily disagree with that, although in the example given, the player losing has to do it to themselves

You are both right. "7"point swing...

So, we have gone from "This should never happen," back down to, "this is amazingly and foolishly over powered!!" It is still not right. But I will back off a little.

Just now, kraken78 said:

This isn't a dueling issue however, but a honor dial issue.

Ok, now we are talking!!!! The Gawd Damhnible HONOR DIAL!!! Now we get to talk about the bigger point... THANK YOU!!!

If I had brought that up, people would have thought I was completely crazy.

If it's any comfort, I'm going ahead and submitting a rules question to probe the issue of max honor bids. Because frankly, any situation involving more than a 5 honor swing (which I'll grant is a decently large number) requires a deliberate action on the part of the player who loses that honor. My question is, does it become the game rules' responsibility to save them from themselves? My personal thought on the issue (and this applies to any honor bid, or misplay for that matter) is that players are responsible for their own actions, no matter how foolish or devastating the results of those actions might be. I would concede though that with the open design space there is the potential for something negative to occur from abusing the open-ended bid increasing system that appears to be in place.

3 minutes ago, kraken78 said:

Although in terms of "flavor"...

It would be very "Scorpion-like" to intentionally dishonor themselves out of every game against a certain clan to play Kingmaker.

Let's hope they do this at the Winter Court, cause I'm actually sick of playing against Scorpions and losing.

Yes!!! It would be a Scorpion Clan thing...it is a "dishonor" system. But the Scorpion do not have the means to do this. Someone else has to GIVE them the ability to use this system. So, flavor-wise, it is out of place.

Now, we are getting into the conversation I have been WAITING to have.

1 minute ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Yes!!! It would be a Scorpion Clan thing...it is a "dishonor" system. But the Scorpion do not have the means to do this. Someone else has to GIVE them the ability to use this system. So, flavor-wise, it is out of place.

Now, we are getting into the conversation I have been WAITING to have.

Well from that perspective, one should always be wary when challenging a Scorpion to a duel...

To be fair though, the core experience does allow Scorpion to splash Duelist Training for an option to initiate duels. I don't know that they'll necessarily get in-clan dueling cards, but I do think it likely that there will be more splashable or even neutral dueling options introduced with expansions.

1 minute ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Because frankly, any situation involving more than a 5 honor swing (which I'll grant is a decently large number) requires a deliberate action on the part of the player who loses that honor. My question is, does it become the game rules' responsibility to save them from themselves?

No, no, no, my friend. ANY clan has the possibility to force a "5" point honor swing. I do not think you can go below zero with "Contingency Plan". But it is too powerful. And even if we said it wasn't, it should be a Scorpion thing, not a neutral card.

Just now, Zesu Shadaban said:

To be fair though, the core experience does allow Scorpion to splash Duelist Training for an option to initiate duels.

Right!!! The Crane Clan has to let the Scorpion Player "BORROW" the ability. Someone else has to let the Scorpion Player use it. Either through splash, or playing duels against them.

2 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Well from that perspective, one should always be wary when challenging a Scorpion to a duel.

But shouldn't a duel be a thing that both players fear. Specifically because, the outcome should not be a forgone conclusion?

Just now, Shiba Jaimi said:

No, no, no, my friend. ANY clan has the possibility to force a "5" point honor swing.

No dispute there. At the same time, they can only force it if the other player is bidding high. I do understand, there are going to be those situations where the player feels they HAVE to bid high to get a result they want. Maybe it's fair, maybe not. But they are still involved in the process that results in them potentially losing that honor, and should be one of the things they consider when deciding to take that action. That goes for drawing cards as well, not just duels. Do they really need to draw 5 cards? Is it worth the honor they will potentially pay to draw that many cards?

Actually no one can "force" a 5 point Honor swing. In fact, absent cards the largest swing is 4. And the dials only come into play (at present) twice.

a) Drawing conflict cards

b) Dueling

The Conflict Card element is very easily explained. Higher Honor bids to draw more cards represent a willingness to do shadier things to procure more resources. When the bids match both sides are being equivalently shady - when they do not one side is being shadier and so forfeits Honor to the side acting less disreputably.

Dueling has been beaten to death here and there has been no logical or supportable claim made of that process being broken either.

If you're so worried about big swings dial lower numbers.

2 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

But shouldn't a duel be a thing that both players fear. Specifically because, the outcome should not be a forgone conclusion?

I think this is at the core of one of the things we'll have to agree to disagree on. Unless one participant is clearly outmatching the other to the point where bidding honor makes little to no difference, the outcome isn't a forgone conclusion...or at least it shouldn't be, if the players are flexible in their strategies. Using the Scorpion character as an example, they may choose to bid low to steal honor from their opponent, and count that as a win because although they lost the duel, they accomplished their objective to steal honor. On the other hand, what if they can't afford to take the effect of losing the duel? Maybe they'll bid high because they feel they must win it despite the cost.

And personally, I don't really fear the duel, I see it as a chance for mind games with my opponent. I'll sit there spinning my dial round and round, even when I've already decided what I want to bid.

1 minute ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

No dispute there. At the same time, they can only force it if the other player is bidding high. I do understand, there are going to be those situations where the player feels they HAVE to bid high to get a result they want. Maybe it's fair, maybe not. But they are still involved in the process that results in them potentially losing that honor, and should be one of the things they consider when deciding to take that action. That goes for drawing cards as well, not just duels. Do they really need to draw 5 cards? Is it worth the honor they will potentially pay to draw that many cards?

I hear you, but you said it yourself, "this is an honor dial issue."

And since you brought it up, I ask you, why would an honorable clan be dishonorable over card draw? Even if they bid "1" and the opponent bids "1". The instant "Contingency Plan" hits the table on the opponents side...dishonor (ie you lose an honor). There isn't a way for honorable clans to act honorably. It is not an honor dial...it is a "DISHONOR DIAL". That is what we should call it.