1 hour ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Just like any sport we watch today. The winner is rewarded. In every sport we watch on television, it is the winners that go on to compete for the titles. In Hockey, for example, if you win enough games, you get the Stanley Cup. In Soccer, win all your games, and you get the Ashes. In boxing, win all your fights, and you get the The Title...Champion. The Stanley Cup, The Ashes and The Championship Title in boxing are all "honors" given to the winner. I have yet to see the highest honors of a sport given to the last place team. Everyone arguing in favor of the current "dishonor" system is using the "edge case", the "rare instance" as the norm. "Loss of control", "dueling the unworthy", "cheating"...these are just some of the excuses used to validate the current rules. In America's NFL, the team that WINS the Superbowl gets the Rings and the Trophy....NOT THE LOSING TEAM! But in the current dueling system, you cannot have an honest duel. It is always dishonorable, honor does not always get exchanged, but both players are always risking honor. And the AVERAGE duel ends with the person with the highest military stat losing honor to the LOSING character. IT IS FLIPPING BACKWARDS!!!!

But, let's take the "just bid 1" excuse... Your character has a military stat of 5 and you are an honorable duelist, from an honorable clan. Your opponent has a "0" military stat. You bid "1". They bid "1". Both honor counters are revealed. And then the other player plays "Contingency Plans". Now, you lose an honor. Why? Because the rules of the dueling say, "You MUST choose a number between 1 and 5." In other words, "You must risk at least one honor in every duel." There is no "just bid 1 and you will not lose honor." This means EVERY DUEL IS RISKING HONOR!!!!

The L5R LCG is at its heart a resource management game. The game has several resources, honor being one of them.

From page 8 of the RRG.

Honor
Honor represents the behavior of a player’s clan, and the outward perception of that behavior. It is bid during the draw phase (see framework step “2.2. Honor bid” on page 20) and during duels. Honor also serves as a victory track to measure an honor win or an honor loss. The amount of honor a player has at any given time is represented (as open information) by honor tokens in his or her honor pool.

◊ A player’s stronghold indicates that player’s starting honor total.

◊ Each time a player gains honor, that honor is taken from the general token pool and added to the player’s honor pool. Each time a player loses honor, that honor is taken from the player’s honor pool and returned to the general token pool.

◊ If a card ability references a player who is more or less honorable than another player, the players compare the amount of honor in each of their honor pools to determine if the ability is applicable, or to whom the ability refers.

◊ If a card ability references a player’s honor bid, the ability is referencing the current setting on the player’s honor dial.

You seem to be hung up on this honorable duelist thing. In game terms if the honor gain or lost was meant to be reflected upon the duelist they would become honored or dishonored. However, the honor lost or gained is yours as the player or more specifically the clan you are leading.

Dueling is a game mechanic you as a player can use to achieve various effects. You can use it honorably or not, and YOUR/YOUR CLAN’S honor score will go up or down accordingly. Your decisions, not the duelists actions are causing the honor loss if you choose to use duels dishonorably. Just like with your Assassinations, you must be prudent with your dueling or risk becoming dishonorable in the eyes of the Emperor and the rest of the clans. Don’t take my word for it, read the definition of honor in the game of L5R and how it works in the framework of the game that I provided above.

You are obviously very passionate about this subject and that is a good thing. You don’t have to like the rules of the game, but you should at least recognize them for what they are as explained by the company that created the game. You seem to be trying to turn them into something they were never meant to be to suit your perception of what they should be.

HOLY SWEET KAMI CHIN-NUTS!!! I was...W R O N G !!!

I have been arguing that a player can lose one-third to almost half their honor in one duel. I also said that if the situation was just right, a Scorpion Clan player could grow the honor swing from "4" to "6". I WAS SO VERY WRONG! It is EVEN WORSE!!!

Here is why:

1.) Contingency Plan

2.) Bayushi Manipulator

Normally, without extras, every duel has the possibility of granting a character a "4" point honor swing. But, with Contingency Plan and Bayushi Manipulator , I thought it could go as high as six. No, no, no... This swing can go as high as "10", count'em, "10" honor. There is no limit on the effect of those two cards. So, you can use their effects (x3 Contingency Plan , x3 Bayushi Manipulator ) all in one duel. This means, and I admit it is HIGHLY unlikely, but it is possible to end the game, in one conflict, IN ONE F_CKING DUEL!!! I was already saying this dueling system was too powerful at a "4" point honor swing...when a "10" point honor swing is possible, forget it. The dueling system should be BURNED TO THE F_CKING GROUND!!

NO action in the game should be this powerful. THIS SHOULD NOT EVEN BE POSSIBLE!!!!

But tell me again, how wonderful is this new dueling system?

3 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

HOLY SWEET KAMI CHIN-NUTS!!! I was...W R O N G !!!

I have been arguing that a player can lose one-third to almost half their honor in one duel. I also said that is the situation was just right, a Scorpion Clan player could grow the honor swing from "4" to "6". I WAS SO VERY WRONG! It is EVEN WORSE!!!

Here is why:

1.) Contingency Plan

2.) Bayushi Manipulator

Normally, without extras, every duel has the possibility of granting a character a "4" point honor swing. But, with Contingency Plan and Bayushi Manipulator , I thought it could go as high as six. No, no, no... This swing can go as high as "10", count'em, "10" honor. There is no limit on the effect of those two cards. So, you can use their effects (x3 Contingency Plan , x3 Bayushi Manipulator ) all in one duel. This means, and I admit it is HIGHLY unlikely, but it is possible to end the game, in one conflict, IN ONE F_CKING DUEL!!! I was already saying this dueling system was too powerful at a "4" point honor swing...when a "10" point honor swing is possible, forget it. The dueling system should be BURNED TO THE F_CKING GROUND!!

NO action in the game should be this powerful.

But tell me again, how wonderful is this new dueling system?

Talk about your edge cases. Now your just getting ridiculous. This is so unlikely it borders on impossible.

However, if you should ever find yourself in this highly unlikely scenario against Scorpion, I would suggest not investing too much in a dueling strategy, at least until the Bayushi Manipulators fade into history next turn. If the Scorpion player was foolish enough to invest fate into them crack a couple of provinces instead.

Wait, I'm confused. First you were going on how dueling is busted against the user, and now you're going on how dueling is OP?

I don't get what the big deal is about 4 honor swings, much less that unlikely 10 honor swing (actually 11 if your opponent is in on the Contingency planning). You know the risks when you bid 5. You can choose to take the safe route and lose 0 (or 1 if again your opponent decides to play Contingency plan). If you're unwilling to give your opponent 4 honor stop bidding so high. No one is Mindslavering you here. The 10 point honor swing can literally only happen if you A) want it to, and B) want to lose yourself the game.

Do you have a problem with bidding for cards? The same honor swings apply, as well as the same choices.

Do you have a problem with Assassination? 3 Honor is at least 1/4 of your starting honor, not quite as high as the card draw/dueling ceiling but not insignificant.

Do you have a problem with Toturi/Hotaru'd Air rings? Gaining 4 honor is just shy of 1/3 of the way to winning the game for Crane and Lion.

2 hours ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Just like any sport we watch today. The winner is rewarded. In every sport we watch on television, it is the winners that go on to compete for the titles. In Hockey, for example, if you win enough games, you get the Stanley Cup. In Soccer, win all your games, and you get the Ashes. In boxing, win all your fights, and you get the The Title...Champion. The Stanley Cup, The Ashes and The Championship Title in boxing are all "honors" given to the winner. I have yet to see the highest honors of a sport given to the last place team. Everyone arguing in favor of the current "dishonor" system is using the "edge case", the "rare instance" as the norm. "Loss of control", "dueling the unworthy", "cheating"...these are just some of the excuses used to validate the current rules. In America's NFL, the team that WINS the Superbowl gets the Rings and the Trophy....NOT THE LOSING TEAM! But in the current dueling system, you cannot have an honest duel. It is always dishonorable, honor does not always get exchanged, but both players are always risking honor. And the AVERAGE duel ends with the person with the highest military stat losing honor to the LOSING character. IT IS FLIPPING BACKWARDS!!!!

In American sports. In Hockey it is typically customary to play soft if you are a few points ahead rather than score out the other team into the dumpster. I'll bet Asian sports teams are similarly minded when playing locally. If they are ahead by a safe margin they play soft.

25 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

HOLY SWEET KAMI CHIN-NUTS!!! I was...W R O N G !!!

I have been arguing that a player can lose one-third to almost half their honor in one duel. I also said that if the situation was just right, a Scorpion Clan player could grow the honor swing from "4" to "6". I WAS SO VERY WRONG! It is EVEN WORSE!!!

Here is why:

1.) Contingency Plan

2.) Bayushi Manipulator

Normally, without extras, every duel has the possibility of granting a character a "4" point honor swing. But, with Contingency Plan and Bayushi Manipulator , I thought it could go as high as six. No, no, no... This swing can go as high as "10", count'em, "10" honor. There is no limit on the effect of those two cards. So, you can use their effects (x3 Contingency Plan , x3 Bayushi Manipulator ) all in one duel. This means, and I admit it is HIGHLY unlikely, but it is possible to end the game, in one conflict, IN ONE F_CKING DUEL!!! I was already saying this dueling system was too powerful at a "4" point honor swing...when a "10" point honor swing is possible, forget it. The dueling system should be BURNED TO THE F_CKING GROUND!!

NO action in the game should be this powerful. THIS SHOULD NOT EVEN BE POSSIBLE!!!!

But tell me again, how wonderful is this new dueling system?

1 - you're actually wrong. This situation is not relevant to your position in the slightest. You complain because you lose honor if you bid high, and then pose a situation where a dishonorable plan can lose you a lot of honor... voluntarily...

2 - this could only be committed as an honor loss, not an honor steal - and only if you knew for certain you would do it.

The reasons - First off both effects only change your own dials. Secondly they are both played after the dials are revealed.

In order for your "omg game breaking combo" to work you would need a player to bid 5 into 1, and THEN also play 3x Contingency plan and 3x Bayushi Manipulator to increase the honor drop they are going to take.

This much honor loss shouldn't surprised anyone as it is a Scorpion clan character who can do this... I'd love to see someone with a stat of 11 duel someone with a stat of 1 and have the Scorpion clan player win the duel lol Not only would I be impressed, but I would also consider it 100% thematic that a Scorpion player cheating TO THE MAX also receive a load of dishonor for doing so lol

21 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

*snipped for nonsense*

If that's your idea of presenting a case for how the bids can get out of hand, you don't have even the slightest clue of how to use the new dueling system and I recommend finding yourself a sensei to teach you how to play.

Are we certain this thread is not a comedy thread?

I'm still waiting for the first logical point against the current Dueling system to be made. So far all I have read is increasingly bizarre stuff bordering on drivel. The Android Netrunner equivalent of this would be a Corp player putting multiple agendas out in completely unprotected servers. The Runner runs on those servers, steals all the agendas and wins. The Corp player then cries "WAAAHHH!!! The Game is Broken!!!"....when if they had simply protected the servers the scenario does not occur.

On 10/17/2017 at 0:54 PM, Shiba Jaimi said:

Since you ask, YEAH...I have an idea in mind. It allows for nuance in dueling. It allows for cheating. Cheating will give a player an advantage but punishes that player for doing it. It rewards the victor of the duel. It does all that and most important, no duel between two nominal characters is a forgone conclusion. There is no GUARANTEED WIN, for ANYONE! Let's call it, because I am a Phoenix Clan player, the "Shiba Method"...just to give it a name.

The setup:

• Each player is given a Chō-Han cup
• Each player is given a six-sided Clan Die
  • Note - These dice can be any color other than black.
• Each player is given a black four-sided Dishonor Die

The steps:

1. an initiating character and a target are identified
2. both players place their own Clan Die into their own cup
   • Note - Each player has the option to add the Dishonor Die to the cup at this point.
3. Both cups are shaken for five seconds, placed upside down on the playing surface and slid forward (to dislodge stacked dice)
4. Once both cups have stopped moving, the cups are removed (without disturbing the dice underneath), revealing the result.
   • Note - regardless of the outcome of the duel, the amount shown on the Dishonor Die is given to the opposing player, in honor tokens, at this point and the player using the Dishonor Die must dishonor the character they control. No card text can stop this dishonoring, at this point.
5. The amount of the die (or dice) controlled by the player are added to the martial stat of the character controlled by the same player.
6. The player controlling the character with the higher total wins the duel and triggers the duel action.

With this method, any player can choose to be dishonorable, or not. Dishonorable behavior is punished. The result is not fixed. The character with the higher stat has an advantage, but it is not a guaranteed win, with nominal characters. THIS IS A FAIR DUELING MECHANIC!!

But...this is just one idea. I am not crazy about the possible amount of honor that can be swung, but the transfer goes in the right direction. And I am not opposed to having someone come up with a completely different idea...as long as there is not an "auto-win", cheaters are punished for cheating, the character with the higher dueling stat has an advantage but either nominal character can still win the duel.

What do you think?

I like this idea a lot. Custom dice could help control honor swing. The four sided dishonor die could have a single 1 and 3. The other two sides would be 2s. The normal dueling die could be six sided with with two sides for 1, 2, and 3.

Acting dishonorably could close the gap but doesnt punish the winner like the current system can.

20 minutes ago, Starbane said:

You seem to be hung up on this honorable duelist thing.

Because it is implied in the definition of the word duel.

m-w.com...

21 minutes ago, Starbane said:

In game terms if the honor gain or lost was meant to be reflected upon the duelist they would become honored or dishonored.

Except the duelist also represents the clan. That is why he fights for the clan.

WHY DO I HAVE TO KEEP MENTIONING OBVIOUS IDEAS?!?!

22 minutes ago, Starbane said:

The L5R LCG is at its heart a resource management game. The game has several resources, honor being one of them.

Oh, gee... If it is just a thing to be managed, why not call it "M&M"s...Or "cord wood"...I know, if it is a thing I have to manage that can cause me discomfort, let just call it "G-Warts"...That'll do it.

If honor does not mean HONOR, then F-CK THIS GAME!! I can quit right now. Give away my cards, stop getting people together, stop contributing to tournament prize support and actively give negative publicity to the game any time someone asks me about it. ****, I will make sure never to buy another fantasy flight game again...ever...if honor doesn't mean HONOR.

41 minutes ago, Starbane said:

Dueling is a game mechanic you as a player can use to achieve various effects. You can use it honorably or not

It is impossible to duel honorably in this current system, I already proved that. You and your opponent bid "1" and then your opponent plays "Contingency Plan". You lose an honor because the rules state you MUST select a number between 1 and 5 on the dial. Even if you play your own "Contingency Plan", that is NOT THE POINT. You are still risking honor in every duel and you have to play other cards to "not dishonor" your clan. It is a dishonorable system.

45 minutes ago, Starbane said:

Don’t take my word for it, read the definition of honor in the game of L5R and how it works in the framework of the game that I provided above.

Yeah, I did that, that is why I am saying it is broken and should be fixed.

46 minutes ago, Starbane said:

You are obviously very passionate about this subject and that is a good thing.

I love the IP. I loved the world in the IP. I want to play the game as if I were I a part of a clan and it mean something...if to no one else, to me.

49 minutes ago, Starbane said:

You don’t have to like the rules of the game, but you should at least recognize them for what they are as explained by the company that created the game. You seem to be trying to turn them into something they were never meant to be to suit your perception of what they should be.

Well, yes, I do have to like the rules in order to play the game. 'Cause there is only so much $@#$ I will put up with while trying to have a good time. I wasn't the one that decided to use terms like "dueling" and "honor", then decide not to apply the definitions of those terms to the game.

Look Starbane, I get it. You like the game, I respect that. You feel obligated to defend it, fine. The dueling rules are broken. Quoting the rules to me does not convince me, because I already read the rules and I play the game everyday. That is how I know the dueling rules are broken. There is a saying;

"Build the better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door."

I am not arguing to be a troll or a ****. I love the IP. I am arguing for a better mouse trap. We are already seeing people in forums trying to get more l5r games and people to play with them. Build the better game, people will be drawn to it, just like "Magic". There is a reason why AEG sold the IP and committed fans, like me, left the game. AEG broke the mouse trap and lost money on it. Now it is back. I see it is still broken, but in different ways. If there was a time to change it, it is now. But if we are going to allow these things to be broken and then just make up definitions for words that carry the very idea of their game...fine. It will remain a sub-standard game, and I will leave. And others will leave. It will be hard to find l5r games, until one day it just disappears. It almost happened once. We all watched it happen. We got lucky, FFG picked it up. There might not be a tomorrow, so we should do it right THIS TIME!

On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 1:54 PM, Shiba Jaimi said:

Since you ask, YEAH...I have an idea in mind. It allows for nuance in dueling. It allows for cheating. Cheating will give a player an advantage but punishes that player for doing it. It rewards the victor of the duel. It does all that and most important, no duel between two nominal characters is a forgone conclusion. There is no GUARANTEED WIN, for ANYONE! Let's call it, because I am a Phoenix Clan player, the "Shiba Method"...just to give it a name.

The setup:

• Each player is given a Chō-Han cup
• Each player is given a six-sided Clan Die
  • Note - These dice can be any color other than black.
• Each player is given a black four-sided Dishonor Die

The steps:

1. an initiating character and a target are identified
2. both players place their own Clan Die into their own cup
   • Note - Each player has the option to add the Dishonor Die to the cup at this point.
3. Both cups are shaken for five seconds, placed upside down on the playing surface and slid forward (to dislodge stacked dice)
4. Once both cups have stopped moving, the cups are removed (without disturbing the dice underneath), revealing the result.
   • Note - regardless of the outcome of the duel, the amount shown on the Dishonor Die is given to the opposing player, in honor tokens, at this point and the player using the Dishonor Die must dishonor the character they control. No card text can stop this dishonoring, at this point.
5. The amount of the die (or dice) controlled by the player are added to the martial stat of the character controlled by the same player.
6. The player controlling the character with the higher total wins the duel and triggers the duel action.

With this method, any player can choose to be dishonorable, or not. Dishonorable behavior is punished. The result is not fixed. The character with the higher stat has an advantage, but it is not a guaranteed win, with nominal characters. THIS IS A FAIR DUELING MECHANIC!!

But...this is just one idea. I am not crazy about the possible amount of honor that can be swung, but the transfer goes in the right direction. And I am not opposed to having someone come up with a completely different idea...as long as there is not an "auto-win", cheaters are punished for cheating, the character with the higher dueling stat has an advantage but either nominal character can still win the duel.

What do you think?

What happens if I shake my cup for 6 seconds...

46 minutes ago, TechnoGolem said:

On 10/17/2017 at 10:54 AM, Shiba Jaimi said:

The "Shiba Method"...

I like this idea a lot. Custom dice could help control honor swing. The four sided dishonor die could have a single 1 and 3. The other two sides would be 2s. The normal dueling die could be six sided with with two sides for 1, 2, and 3.

Acting dishonorably could close the gap but doesnt punish the winner like the current system can.

Thank you. Actually, after thinking about it more, I am leaning toward the idea of a "1" honor swing for dishonor die being present. After all, we are talking about clans with hundreds, if not thousands, of people in them. One duelist, in one duel, should not be able to dishonor a Clan by a large amount, but that duelist still fights for the honor of the Clan. And, the "1" honor swing is the same as the Air Ring. So, not too big a swing.

By the way, I liked your additions to the method.

But, yeah, the "Shiba Method" is a better dueling system. I came up with it in 30+ minutes, alone in my room. FFG is a company with staff. They should be able to do better than me. I am just politely asking them to do so.

8 minutes ago, kraken78 said:

What happens if I shake my cup for 6 seconds...

Kisada gives you a "gentle" reminder not to.

1 minute ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Thank you. Actually, after thinking about it more, I am leaning toward the idea of a "1" honor swing for dishonor die being present. After all, we are talking about clans with hundreds, if not thousands, of people in them. One duelist, in one duel, should not be able to dishonor a Clan by a large amount, but that duelist still fights for the honor of the Clan.

But, yeah, the "Shiba Method" is a better dueling system. I came up with it in 30+ minutes, alone in my room. FFG is a company with staff. They should be able to do better than me. I am just politely asking them to do so.

Better...in your opinion, anyways. I'm sure FFG might go for the "you have to buy custom dice for THIS game, too!" approach. But, that means everyone who already bought into the game now has to get a set of dueling dice and a cup, future printings of the game will require those be included, which means changes to packaging to accommodate the additional components, and either they need to change the price point or eat the cost of those extra components, packaging design, etc.

FFG designed the method that they want. It's okay to not like it, however to imply your half-baked idea is better simply because you don't like the system they decided on is rude at best. Please tell me you at least submitted something TO FFG to politely ask them to change dueling, rather than just continuing to post your ideas here. Because posting here does nothing to actually present your ideas or air your grievances with the parties you want to hear them.

4 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Thank you. Actually, after thinking about it more, I am leaning toward the idea of a "1" honor swing for dishonor die being present. After all, we are talking about clans with hundreds, if not thousands, of people in them. One duelist, in one duel, should not be able to dishonor a Clan by a large amount, but that duelist still fights for the honor of the Clan.

But, yeah, the "Shiba Method" is a better dueling system. I came up with it in 30+ minutes, alone in my room. FFG is a company with staff. They should be able to do better than me. I am just politely asking them to do so.

Sorry Shiba Jaimi,

I will respectfully disagree that this method is better. It is far too random and takes the control out of the players hands and puts it into dice...no thank you.

If I wanted randomness in my game, I'd still play Warlord.

At least the current system pits player against player in a battle of "what am I willing to risk?" It's a far more active and engaging system with a multitude of strategems that can be applied.

I concur that the "in game" flavor of the duel is not as in line with the "truth" of the story and game, but the mechanic is pretty good, in my opinioin.

1 hour ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

HOLY SWEET KAMI CHIN-NUTS!!! I was...W R O N G !!!

I have been arguing that a player can lose one-third to almost half their honor in one duel. I also said that if the situation was just right, a Scorpion Clan player could grow the honor swing from "4" to "6". I WAS SO VERY WRONG! It is EVEN WORSE!!!

Here is why:

1.) Contingency Plan

2.) Bayushi Manipulator

Normally, without extras, every duel has the possibility of granting a character a "4" point honor swing. But, with Contingency Plan and Bayushi Manipulator , I thought it could go as high as six. No, no, no... This swing can go as high as "10", count'em, "10" honor. There is no limit on the effect of those two cards. So, you can use their effects (x3 Contingency Plan , x3 Bayushi Manipulator ) all in one duel. This means, and I admit it is HIGHLY unlikely, but it is possible to end the game, in one conflict, IN ONE F_CKING DUEL!!! I was already saying this dueling system was too powerful at a "4" point honor swing...when a "10" point honor swing is possible, forget it. The dueling system should be BURNED TO THE F_CKING GROUND!!

NO action in the game should be this powerful. THIS SHOULD NOT EVEN BE POSSIBLE!!!!

But tell me again, how wonderful is this new dueling system?

Dude really?

It's not like you won't see 3 Manipulators on the board.

JUST BID ONE!

What's the worst that happens...YOU LOSE THE DUEL AND BOW, or LOSE A FATE!

Stop being ridiculous!

I think you should quit now...your life will be happier and so will ours.

1 minute ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Better...in your opinion, anyways. I'm sure FFG might go for the "you have to buy custom dice for THIS game, too!" approach. But, that means everyone who already bought into the game now has to get a set of dueling dice and a cup, future printings of the game will require those be included, which means changes to packaging to accommodate the additional components, and either they need to change the price point or eat the cost of those extra components, packaging design, etc.

FFG designed the method that they want. It's okay to not like it, however to imply your half-baked idea is better simply because you don't like the system they decided on is rude at best. Please tell me you at least submitted something TO FFG to politely ask them to change dueling, rather than just continuing to post your ideas here. Because posting here does nothing to actually present your ideas or air your grievances with the parties you want to hear them.

I explained, in at least three different ways, why it is broken. I offered a suggestion. That is not being rude. I have been very careful to ridicule ideas and not people...well, I have tried to. Even in my frustration over this...disagreement. But, I am a black man, raised in a rural southern community. If you want me to be rude, I can do that.

I posted the idea of the dueling rules being broken to bounce it off of other like minded people. I wanted to see if I was off base. I wasn't. I posted here because this is the forum that has FFG's name on it. I thought someone would read it. Then someone said they wouldn't read their own forums. I would love to know why not, but... I keep engaging in this conversation because, even after I showed three different ways these dueling rules are broken, the defense of the rule did not prove my points wrong. Though-out this whole thread, people start by saying, "You are wrong." Then they proceed to quote the rules to me and strategies to work within the broken rule system. No one has said, "You are wrong, a 4 point honor swing is not more powerful than the Air Ring." Or, "No, Jaimi, this is how honorable duelist can with a duel against an equally matched opponent...(then explain it)."

But, I was hoping, that if enough of the community realized the dueling rules were broken, someone at FFG would hear about it and fix it. Or, we players just throw out their rules and setup standard "home" rules to play under that were better. I admit, I am losing hope in this part.

12 minutes ago, kraken78 said:

I concur that the "in game" flavor of the duel is not as in line with the "truth" of the story and game, but the mechanic is pretty good, in my opinioin.

You know what, for you to admit just this...fills me with joy. I understand you saying, "I don't like what you came up with because of the randomness, but you are correct, something is fishy with the dueling rules." You have my love and respect, just for this.

6 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

You know what, for you to admit just this...fills me with joy. I understand you saying, "I don't like what you came up with because of the randomness, but you are correct, something is fishy with the dueling rules." You have my love and respect, just for this.

How do you get that from what he said!? He just said, in what you quoted, "the mechanic is pretty good, in my opinion". He's talking about the existing mechanic in the game. Heck, I'll readily admit the same thing he did, the mechanic isn't 100% faithful to the flavor of dueling and honor and Rokugan. This is a card game, not the RPG. Sometimes mechanics will supercede flavor. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how the idea you proposed is more than marginally more faithful to the flavor, and as he also stated, at least the current mechanic leaves control entirely in the player's hands, rather than relying on a random die roll.

6 minutes ago, kraken78 said:

1 hour ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

NO action in the game should be this powerful. THIS SHOULD NOT EVEN BE POSSIBLE!!!!

But tell me again, how wonderful is this new dueling system?

Stop being ridiculous!

I think you should quit now...your life will be happier and so will ours.

And, though I still love you, you lost some respect with me when you did this. But, fine...

I was making the point, it should not even be possible. Yes, it is highly unlikely...I already said that. But the likely hood is not the point. I just shouldn't be possible. This signifies more that anything dueling is broken. It is powerful enough to end a game on the first turn, on the first combat, in the first action. Nothing in the game should be able to do this...and nothing else is...except card draw, but that is another thing, for a different forum thread.

3 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

You know what, for you to admit just this...fills me with joy. I understand you saying, "I don't like what you came up with because of the randomness, but you are correct, something is fishy with the dueling rules." You have my love and respect, just for this.

Well I agree there are many ways to "sort of" justify honor losses and gains through the system, they seem like long shots.

However the "head to head" decision making still interests me.

I run dueling in my Crab deck with Crane splash.

I purposefully lose approx. 50% of my duels specifically to cause honor losses and card losses. Even if I accidently win I get the BOW effect. The strategy is great in my opinion and pretty difficult to abuse.

In a nutshell this game is about economics.

"Opportunity Costs vs. Potential Profit" and the dueling mechanic plays off this idea quite well, if not as "thematic" as I'd like.

2 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

How do you get that from what he said!? He just said, in what you quoted, "the mechanic is pretty good, in my opinion".

Because, and I notice you didn't quote it, he said this:

24 minutes ago, kraken78 said:

I concur that the "in game" flavor of the duel is not as in line with the "truth" of the story

Which is one of the things I had been arguing. The validation is nice to have. Even if we disagree.

5 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Heck, I'll readily admit the same thing he did, the mechanic isn't 100% faithful to the flavor of dueling and honor and Rokugan.

Thank you.

6 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how the idea you proposed is more than marginally more faithful to the flavor, and as he also stated, at least the current mechanic leaves control entirely in the player's hands, rather than relying on a random die roll.

Was I not clear in the post where I outlined the "Shiba Method"? Seriously, respectfully, was I unclear?

7 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

And, though I still love you, you lost some respect with me when you did this. But, fine...

I was making the point, it should not even be possible. Yes, it is highly unlikely...I already said that. But the likely hood is not the point. I just shouldn't be possible. This signifies more that anything dueling is broken. It is powerful enough to end a game on the first turn, on the first combat, in the first action. Nothing in the game should be able to do this...and nothing else is...except card draw, but that is another thing, for a different forum thread.

As mean as my statement sounded. I was honestly thinking about your psychological well-being when I said you should quit now.

There is no way FFG is going to revamp their dueling rules any time soon. And with your abject disgust of the system...you will just end up being very unhappy if you can't at least come to terms with the purpose and flow of the play mechanic.

I find it unlikely, you will see many duels swing more that 4 honor ever. And of the person who is on the losing end of a 10 point honor swing doesn't learn from their error...they deserve to lose...repeatedly.

3 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

I was making the point, it should not even be possible. Yes, it is highly unlikely...I already said that. But the likely hood is not the point. I just shouldn't be possible. This signifies more that anything dueling is broken. It is powerful enough to end a game on the first turn, on the first combat, in the first action. Nothing in the game should be able to do this...and nothing else is...except card draw, but that is another thing, for a different forum thread.

Just to clarify, Contingency Plan is restricted to reducing the bid to 0, can't bid lower than that. Bayushi Manipulator can only increase your own bid, he can't reduce it, and he can't change your opponent's bid. So let's say in the example that 3 Contingency Plans and 3 Bayushi Manipulators are used. We'll say Player A bid 1, and Player B bid 5. Player A can't decrease their bid with Bayushi Manipulator, but let's just say they have their own Contingency Plan and reduce their bid to 0. So now they're at 0 - 5. Yes, Player B can then play 3 Contingency Plans and activate 3 Bayushi Manipulators. So for reasons unknown, Player B increases their bid with these 6 cards to 11. Congratulations, Player B has won the bid 0 - 11. He then loses all his honor and loses the game. But what I fail to understand is, why would Player B do this to themselves unless they are intentionally throwing the game? Unless you have some completely different scenario in mind for how Player A is using the cards to force Player B to lose?

12 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Because, and I notice you didn't quote it, he said this:

Quote

I concur that the "in game" flavor of the duel is not as in line with the "truth" of the story

He is clearly talking about the flavor of the duel in that quote, not the rules of dueling. You paraphrased him as saying there's "something fishy" with the rules. The only thing fishy from his post is the Kraken in his name.

Quote

Was I not clear in the post where I outlined the "Shiba Method"? Seriously, respectfully, was I unclear?

My understanding from your idea is that choosing dishonorable methods is represented by including a "dishonor die" in your roll. I guess in my own opinion, there is little difference between including/discluding your dishonor die, and just bidding 1 on the honor dial. Yes, *technically* if your opponent uses Contingency Plan to reduce their bid to 0, they can end up making you pay an honor. That is essentially the margin I mentioned that makes it more flavorful. However, the die roll in general still turns dueling into a mostly random situation; it means additional components not already included in the game; and it removes player control over the duel results.

I would still stand by my original opinion that the dueling system is best enhanced through additional dueling options and cards. Duelist Training is a good start, it gives you an option to pay no honor at all if you bid higher, you can discard cards instead. More options like this can be made available, or duel-enhancing attachments, reactions, interrupts, etc.

ADD: If I have misunderstood your "Shiba Method" and how it represents the flavor of the game, I would certainly welcome a clarification.