13 minutes ago, Togashi Bey said:

So if both players had it in their hand, in what order would it be resolved?

The first player has the first opportunity to react to any Triggering Condition. During the reaction window each player has opportunity to play a reaction or pass in turn. The window only closes when both player pass consecutively.

Just now, shosuko said:

The first player has the first opportunity to react to any Triggering Condition. During the reaction window each player has opportunity to play a reaction or pass. The window only closes when both player pass consecutively.

Excellent...thank you.

4 minutes ago, Togashi Bey said:

So if both players had it in their hand, in what order would it be resolved?

First player gets first opportunity to react. THen Second player. If they both pass, you move on. Otherwise if First player passes, second player gets a chance to resolve it, then first player would get a chance to resolve theirs.

On 09/10/2017 at 2:37 PM, Ishi Tonu said:

In short, yes, I think you are wrong.

What FFG did with dueling is attempt to replicate the feel of how dueling is portrayed in Rokugan. It is not just a test of skill with a blade, but of honor. If you win the duel dishonorably then that can have repercussions as well.

Someone who is a superior duelist challenging someone inferior is somewhat dishonorable to begin with , so the initiater of the duel has more pressure to win, and win honorably. If you start with a higher stat you should always win the duel of you bid the max, however the person being dueled could choose to bid low and show just how dishonorable the initiater of the duel was by bullying someone of lower skill .

I think this design is much more representative of lore surrounding duels in Rokugan. In the old game the person with the higher stat almost never lost and the part about honor was simply ignored......in a game where honor was so important it was kind of a silly oversight but never really changed because the design was different.

There is nothing broken with dueling as is. There are only 3 duels in the game. There may likely be a duel in the future that is refusable at the cost of honor or fate or whatever. As it stands now dueling is much more exciting than it ever was in the CCG.

After more than a hundred posts this point of view seems perfect to me.

On 09/10/2017 at 1:54 PM, Shiba Jaimi said:

Am I wrong?

Yes, most of the old players are coherent and recognize that the Old5R system was terrible, many consider duels the worst mechanics of the game as well as cavalry, tactician and naval, or even enlightenment victory.

Mechanics don't always have to make sense literally, or should be deads at the end of every military conflict. Or do you think that after a duel a person needs to die but after a war is it normal for anyone just to go home without injuries?

You know you're frustrated because you'd always win when you called someone for the duel in Old5R, just as there are some players still complaining about the end of the cavalry or the tactician, that's not about what makes sense, it's simply about something changed and you don't like it.

Anyway, I think they did a great job with duel, this time there is a drawback and this is great, the developers have already made it clear that this game is to be interactive, and the bid system allows different strategies and it should even be an important resource for honor decks.

25 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

After more than a hundred posts this point of view seems perfect to me.

The issue is not whether or not we are clear as to what the rules are. We are all clear on what the dueling rules ARE. There are over a hundred posts here because, and some people agree with me, the duelings rules are a problem. It rewards the loser, is more powerful than it should be and breaks some of the underlying premises of the game.

36 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

the developers have already made it clear that this game is to be interactive, and the bid system allows different strategies and it should even be an important resource for honor decks.

Sure, it allows for all the strategies, except there is a number on the honor dial, when the challenger has a higher military stat (which is most of the time) where, if the challenger chooses it, he will always win. And the tendency is, WHEN the challenger does that, and wins the duel, he has to give honor to the loser. The explanation is, "The challenger cheated, the challenger is dishonorable"...ALWAYS! And because you always have to add the number amount to the skill value, you are NEVER relying on your skill alone. And if there was a way to do that, it would be a flat action; "I have a higher military stat, therefore I win the duel, sending you home." That would be "Route". As I am thinking about it, only one player has a choice, the challenger. The challenger has the choice; "Do I want to win? Or do I want to play the dishonor game?" The only time the challengee's dial is considered, as far as the triggering of the duel result is concerned, is if the challenger wants to play the dishonor game. So, actually, I disagree. The only strategy is in how much honor is won or lost. That is a weak sauce dueling system.

The strategy is in when to duel and when not to. You can't just spam duels around and profit, you need to pay attention to the honor levels as well. It's almost like complaining that drawing five cards each round is an auto lose for the same reason. Do you need Raitsugu to remove a clan champ, or is Kakita whatshisname just there to send himself and another guy home for honor? Maybe play a few more games with the rules and find a meta for them before declaring them trash.

I like the new system, though it is pretty bare at the moment with only three duels. Hopefully the first six Dynasty Packs add a duel each or so, until then we just haven't seen much of the design space explored.

Old dueling was ok, but the challengee rarely won in my experience, unless it was Duelist vs Duelist. My concern is seeing the new system devolve into a similar state where duels are issued and there's never any risk. Using the honor bids allows for the Duelist to have an edge, as with a higher skill you can always win by bidding 5, but keeps the risk by assigning a penalty to it.

I'd argue that the system is meant to push against just bidding 5 and bully dueling every turn, and saying that it punished you for doing so is kind of missing the point.

16 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

The strategy is in when to duel and when not to. You can't just spam duels around and profit, you need to pay attention to the honor levels as well.

I understand your point. You are talking strategy. And I understand you idea of using honor as a resource. But that does not address the underlying problems with the rules themselves. There are better ways to achieve that kind of subtly in a dueling system.

16 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

Do you need Raitsugu to remove a clan champ, or is Kakita whatshisname just there to send himself and another guy home for honor? Maybe play a few more games with the rules and find a meta for them before declaring them trash.

Don't get me started. Let's just stick to the most egregious problems and then work our way down.

16 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

Maybe play a few more games with the rules and find a meta for them before declaring them trash.

I play everyday. Deck build almost every two. I have been constantly in the game since release.

16 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

My concern is seeing the new system devolve into a similar state where duels are issued and there's never any risk.

Just because I am saying the current rules are broken does not mean I want to go back to the old L5R dueling. I want the dueling to have an element of randomness, but give the character with the highest skill an advantage...a chance for a character to dishonor themselves, while allowing honorable characters to act honorably...to have an honor component, without the possibility of either side losing the game after result of TWO duels...and most important, anytime someone triggers a duel, both players become very aware that dueling is dangerous. THAT would be a fun mechanic. And there are ways to have that system, FFG just hasn't found it yet.

16 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

I'd argue that the system is meant to push against just bidding 5 and bully dueling every turn, and saying that it punished you for doing so is kind of missing the point.

Bakunin-san, in this thread, we have torn the dueling rules apart. We all understand the goal FFG put forward as to why the dueling rules are that way they are. Truly, and with respect, it is you who has missed the point. You may, or may not, have read the entire thread. But I invite you to look it over again. Etaywah put it best, in the case of honorable duelist, dueling honorably:

"1) Winning a duel should grant you honor, not cost you honor.

2) Losing a duel should cost you honor, not be the recipient of it.

3) Duels take 2 people to agree to the duel, otherwise it's murder.

For those 3 reasons I do not like the current dueling system."

Right now, we do not have this.

15 minutes ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

I understand your point. You are talking strategy. And I understand you idea of using honor as a resource. But that does not address the underlying problems with the rules themselves. There are better ways to achieve that kind of subtly in a dueling system.

Don't get me started. Let's just stick to the most egregious problems and then work our way down.

I play everyday. Deck build almost every two. I have been constantly in the game since release.

Just because I am saying the current rules are broken does not mean I want to go back to the old L5R dueling. I want the dueling to have an element of randomness, but give the character with the highest skill an advantage...a chance for a character to dishonor themselves, while allowing honorable characters to act honorably...to have an honor component, without the possibility of either side losing the game after result of TWO duels...and most important, anytime someone triggers a duel, both players become very aware that dueling is dangerous. THAT would be a fun mechanic. And there are ways to have that system, FFG just hasn't found it yet.

Bakunin-san, in this thread, we have torn the dueling rules apart. We all understand the goal FFG put forward as to why the dueling rules are that way they are. Truly, and with respect, it is you who has missed the point. You may, or may not, have read the entire thread. But I invite you to look it over again. Etaywah put it best, in the case of honorable duelist, dueling honorably:

"1) Winning a duel should grant you honor, not cost you honor.

2) Losing a duel should cost you honor, not be the recipient of it.

3) Duels take 2 people to agree to the duel, otherwise it's murder.

For those 3 reasons I do not like the current dueling system."

Right now, we do not have this.

Why should just fighting a duel gain or lose you honor? Why should the loser lose honor? Why should the winner gain honor?

I don't dislike but I also don't like the dueling system. It feels clunky and it doesn't feel like it fits a narrative. I don't understand the honor loss for simply winning because who said you did dishonorable tactics in your duel? The Kakita dueling school is a Rokugan renowned school for dueling and their students are some of the best duelists. If winning a duel is dishonorable in Rokugan why would they bother with a whole school devoted to it? A whole family, the Kakita!

I loved dueling in L5R CCG, definitely one of my favorite mechanics with good cards that interacted with it. The LCG variant feels tacked on and incomplete. Granted this is an early conclusion of the rule as it is. It is entirely possible this mechanic will be expanded upon in the future with cards that institute duels and reverse the outcomes for yourself, gain instead of lose honor, or something else such as Dial modification that doesn't get calculated into honor loss or gain.

29 minutes ago, theGricks said:

I don't dislike but I also don't like the dueling system. It feels clunky and it doesn't feel like it fits a narrative. I don't understand the honor loss for simply winning because who said you did dishonorable tactics in your duel? The Kakita dueling school is a Rokugan renowned school for dueling and their students are some of the best duelists. If winning a duel is dishonorable in Rokugan why would they bother with a whole school devoted to it? A whole family, the Kakita!

I loved dueling in L5R CCG, definitely one of my favorite mechanics with good cards that interacted with it. The LCG variant feels tacked on and incomplete. Granted this is an early conclusion of the rule as it is. It is entirely possible this mechanic will be expanded upon in the future with cards that institute duels and reverse the outcomes for yourself, gain instead of lose honor, or something else such as Dial modification that doesn't get calculated into honor loss or gain.

Good question - would you agree that the Kakita are a family that value skill above other things? That their artisans as well as their duelists are both a reflection of the efforts they have put in to be the best at what they do, right? If you were to compare paintings of a painter who is well established, with great experience against the painting of a novice who is only just beginning their steps in the art, would you agree you could not judge them by the same metrics? That you must evaluate them based on their composition relative to their experience and skill?

So what honor is there in dueling a person who is not also skilled at dueling? Or worse - to duel a novice using overbearing attacks that lacks form or grace? I mean, at that point - are you actually honoring your training as an iajutsu master? Or are you just being a bully...?

Surly simple victory is not enough to be "honorable" or "skilled." The Lion can win, but that doesn't mean they are civilized. There is a certain grace and poise, and especially restraint a person must display to demonstrate their skill in the craft, and actually bring honor to their family through dueling.

1 minute ago, shosuko said:

Good question - would you agree that the Kakita are a family that value skill above other things? Their artisans as well as their dueling are both a reflection of the efforts they have put in to be the best at what they do, right? If you were to compare paintings of a painter who is well established, with great experience against the painting of a novice who is only just beginning their steps in the art, would you agree you could not judge them by the same metrics? That you must evaluate them based on their composition relative to their experience and skill?

So what honor is there in dueling a person who is not also skilled at dueling? Or worse - to duel a novice using overbearing attacks that lacks form or grace? I mean, at that point - are you actually honoring your training as an iajutsu master? Or are you just being a bully...?

That is a good point, but the rules make the assumption that all duels are "X beat the snot out of Y because they are better and should be looked down on!" when really that is not the case of duels. There is no equality associated among duelists, so there can only be an honor loss for winning a duel. The only time you win is when you lose, which is not the best method for a game mechanic. Granted, dueling can work very well if your generating a lot of honor, but at this course in the game, that is not the case.

While the honor gain/loss is only based on the dial you could try and bait a mook out to overbid while winning with a lower bid, and take Honor.

also do cards that affect the dial numbers work in Duels? Contingency Plan for example.

21 minutes ago, theGricks said:

That is a good point, but the rules make the assumption that all duels are "X beat the snot out of Y because they are better and should be looked down on!" when really that is not the case of duels. There is no equality associated among duelists, so there can only be an honor loss for winning a duel. The only time you win is when you lose, which is not the best method for a game mechanic. Granted, dueling can work very well if your generating a lot of honor, but at this course in the game, that is not the case.

While the honor gain/loss is only based on the dial you could try and bait a mook out to overbid while winning with a lower bid, and take Honor.

also do cards that affect the dial numbers work in Duels? Contingency Plan for example.

The rules are determined by the challenge. Raitsugu creates a duel where one person beats the snot out of the other. Kaezin obviously duels in place of a battle, to settle it personally. Duelist training gives an option instead of losing honor - as you're only a student anyway so mistakes may be forgiven.

You can tell who is the stronger person in a duel by who has a higher MIL stat. This person can bid 1 and win if their opponent bids one. If they do this and win they do not lose honor as they showed grace and restraint. The effects of the duel are still granted because that effect is what they are dueling for - currently no duel is "to gain honor."

If a person is already stronger AND sets the die high indicating they are putting more force in their duel, they may lose honor by not showing restraint. If a well trained Kakita duelist faced a Scorpion duelist, and the Kakita struck out without form or grace while the Scorpion remained composed, even though the Scorpion may lose the duel - being a brute doesn't gain a Kakita any honor.

Similarly if the Kakita remains calm and composed, while the Scorpion becomes brutish, demonstrating a lack of technique, even if the Scorpion wins people may recognize the skill and composure of the Kakita.

Isn't the whole concept of honor that you are judged by more than a simple measure of win or lose, but also by skill, refinement, composure, restraint, ect?

As for cards like Contingency Plan - you can flavor it however you want. At a point you can also recognize that a card effect is applicable because the game demands interaction. Future cards may be released which allow a person to duel "for honor" or allow you to react to "cheat" or even to simply skill up for duels specifically. Nothing currently exists - but don't mistake that as saying nothing could exist.

Honestly I think the current system just needs more variety released and it'll be fine. Maybe dueling attachments that specifically give duelists (or at least the attached character) a bonus when participating in a duel. For example:

Honorable Stance (attachment)

1 Cost, +0 MIL / +0 POL

Attach to a Duelist character you control.

Reaction: During a duel the attached character is participating in, bow this attachment - the attached character gains +2 MIL/+2 POL until the end of the duel. Then, if the attached character wins the duel, unbow this attachment.

(Note: Obviously not balanced but just an example)

Gives your character a reasonable boost for dueling purposes, reducing the need to bid/sacrifice honor to win. You can potentially win fully honorably, and if you do then you can reuse the attachment since it unbows. Or your opponent may be forced to behave very dishonorably and pay you a bunch of honor to win at all costs and force your attachment to remain bowed.

22 minutes ago, shosuko said:

The rules are determined by the challenge. Raitsugu creates a duel where one person beats the snot out of the other. Kaezin obviously duels in place of a battle, to settle it personally. Duelist training gives an option instead of losing honor - as you're only a student anyway so mistakes may be forgiven.

You can tell who is the stronger person in a duel by who has a higher MIL stat. This person can bid 1 and win if their opponent bids one. If they do this and win they do not lose honor as they showed grace and restraint. The effects of the duel are still granted because that effect is what they are dueling for - currently no duel is "to gain honor."

If a person is already stronger AND sets the die high indicating they are putting more force in their duel, they may lose honor by not showing restraint. If a well trained Kakita duelist faced a Scorpion duelist, and the Kakita struck out without form or grace while the Scorpion remained composed, even though the Scorpion may lose the duel - being a brute doesn't gain a Kakita any honor.

Similarly if the Kakita remains calm and composed, while the Scorpion becomes brutish, demonstrating a lack of technique, even if the Scorpion wins people may recognize the skill and composure of the Kakita.

Isn't the whole concept of honor that you are judged by more than a simple measure of win or lose, but also by skill, refinement, composure, restraint, ect?

As for cards like Contingency Plan - you can flavor it however you want. At a point you can also recognize that a card effect is applicable because the game demands interaction. Future cards may be released which allow a person to duel "for honor" or allow you to react to "cheat" or even to simply skill up for duels specifically. Nothing currently exists - but don't mistake that as saying nothing could exist.

This is actually a good point I had not considered, it is hard to seperate the differences between JUST a dial check versus a Dial PLUS Mil stat check. A Duelist with 5 MIL vs Courtier with 0 MIL...well...you can bid 1 and win no matter.

Winning a duel doesn't cost honor, bidding high does. I certainly expect that a card will be made at some point that grants honor to the victor, but as it stands winning or losing a duel has no effect on your honor. Nothing in the dueling rules forces you to lose honor, unless you bid high. Increase your duelist's skill and you don't need to bid so high.

10 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Honestly I think the current system just needs more variety released and it'll be fine. Maybe dueling attachments that specifically give duelists (or at least the attached character) a bonus when participating in a duel. For example:

Honorable Stance (attachment)

1 Cost, +0 MIL / +0 POL

Attach to a Duelist character you control.

Reaction: During a duel the attached character is participating in, bow this attachment - the attached character gains +2 MIL/+2 POL until the end of the duel. Then, if the attached character wins the duel, unbow this attachment.

(Note: Obviously not balanced but just an example)

Gives your character a reasonable boost for dueling purposes, reducing the need to bid/sacrifice honor to win. You can potentially win fully honorably, and if you do then you can reuse the attachment since it unbows. Or your opponent may be forced to behave very dishonorably and pay you a bunch of honor to win at all costs and force your attachment to remain bowed.

I think this is the biggest issue currently, there simply is not a lot of, if any support, for dueling.

This also reminds me of something I posted in another thread on dueling. Just to be clear, the honor bid is being made by YOU, the commander of your army, not by the duelist. I believe I've seen references to the old5R lore where lords commanded their duelists to throw a duel. Duty is, far as I know, still one of the chief driving forces in a samurai's life. So if you, the commander, decide the duel needs to be won at all costs, it's the clan that is losing honor, not necessarily the duelist himself or herself. Heck, it could even be argued that the duelist is unaware that the duel has been tilted in their favor...maybe their blade was coated in poison or paralytic without them being told, or a drug slipped in their opponent's cup for a toast beforehand.

Yeah - they definitely need to release more cards for dueling. More duel initiating cards, more duel effects. Focus, Strike of Flowing Water, Poisoned Blade, Kharmic Strike ect were great at making duels lively.

I think Contingency Plan would be great to include in a deck in which you plan to duel. With this you can bid enough to tie a max bid from them, instead of bidding their potential max bid +1. If they bid max you can gain +1 to win. If they bid just 1 you are already 1 less than you might have bid before, and can drop another 1 from the action. This gives a lot more control during a duel. Unfortunately this is basically the only relevant action in the current card pool. I trust it will expand over time.

5 hours ago, Mirith said:

Why should just fighting a duel gain or lose you honor? Why should the loser lose honor? Why should the winner gain honor?

Just like any sport we watch today. The winner is rewarded. In every sport we watch on television, it is the winners that go on to compete for the titles. In Hockey, for example, if you win enough games, you get the Stanley Cup. In Soccer, win all your games, and you get the Ashes. In boxing, win all your fights, and you get the The Title...Champion. The Stanley Cup, The Ashes and The Championship Title in boxing are all "honors" given to the winner. I have yet to see the highest honors of a sport given to the last place team. Everyone arguing in favor of the current "dishonor" system is using the "edge case", the "rare instance" as the norm. "Loss of control", "dueling the unworthy", "cheating"...these are just some of the excuses used to validate the current rules. In America's NFL, the team that WINS the Superbowl gets the Rings and the Trophy....NOT THE LOSING TEAM! But in the current dueling system, you cannot have an honest duel. It is always dishonorable, honor does not always get exchanged, but both players are always risking honor. And the AVERAGE duel ends with the person with the highest military stat losing honor to the LOSING character. IT IS FLIPPING BACKWARDS!!!!

4 hours ago, shosuko said:

You can tell who is the stronger person in a duel by who has a higher MIL stat. This person can bid 1 and win if their opponent bids one. If they do this and win they do not lose honor as they showed grace and restraint...If a person is already stronger AND sets the die high indicating they are putting more force in their duel, they may lose honor by not showing restraint. If a well trained Kakita duelist faced a Scorpion duelist, and the Kakita struck out without form or grace while the Scorpion remained composed, even though the Scorpion may lose the duel - being a brute doesn't gain a Kakita any honor.

Again, the edge case... By the way, you are making up the "sets the die high indicating they are putting more force in their duel". The honor dial, is the indicator for how much HONOR to are willing to risk. It has nothing to do with "showing restraint". It has nothing to do with "remaining composed". The rules on the honor dial are CLEAR! Every time you set that honor dial during the game, whether it is for card draw or dueling, it is specifically for indicating how much HONOR you are willing to LOSE! That means every duelist is cheating.

But, let's take the "just bid 1" excuse... Your character has a military stat of 5 and you are an honorable duelist, from an honorable clan. Your opponent has a "0" military stat. You bid "1". They bid "1". Both honor counters are revealed. And then the other player plays "Contingency Plans". Now, you lose an honor. Why? Because the rules of the dueling say, "You MUST choose a number between 1 and 5." In other words, "You must risk at least one honor in every duel." There is no "just bid 1 and you will not lose honor." This means EVERY DUEL IS RISKING HONOR!!!!

4 hours ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

So if you, the commander, decide the duel needs to be won at all costs, it's the clan that is losing honor, not necessarily the duelist himself or herself. Heck, it could even be argued that the duelist is unaware that the duel has been tilted in their favor...maybe their blade was coated in poison or paralytic without them being told, or a drug slipped in their opponent's cup for a toast beforehand.

Again, the edge case with the drugs and poisons...

But no, this does not seem to be true either. I mean the "if you, the commander, decide the duel needs to be won at all costs." The duel is one character vs. another character. You control the character. The honor dial amount is added to the CHARACTER's military stat. You are over complicating this, trying to excuse a bad rule system.

4 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

Nothing in the dueling rules forces you to lose honor

Except for the rule that says you must choose a number between 1 and 5. Even choosing "1" is still risking "1".

I don't know how many times it has to be said...

4 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

Increase your duelist's skill and you don't need to bid so high.

This is a strategy to negotiate the bad dueling rules, if you have extra cards a resources BEFORE the duel starts. This does not fix the problem.

Just face it, the dueling rules are broken.

5 hours ago, shosuko said:

So what honor is there in dueling a person who is not also skilled at dueling? Or worse - to duel a novice using overbearing attacks that lacks form or grace? I mean, at that point - are you actually honoring your training as an iajutsu master? Or are you just being a bully...?

We are not allowed to "bully". We are not allowed to duel the unworthy. How can I say this with any certainty? Because you cannot target a character with a "-" [dash] military stat. If a character has an integer for a military stat, they ARE a viable target. The "unworthy" targets for a duel are already weeded out. So, all that is left is the duel.

23 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

The strategy is in when to duel and when not to. You can't just spam duels around and profit, you need to pay attention to the honor levels as well.

I understand your point. You are talking strategy. And I understand you idea of using honor as a resource. But that does not address the underlying problems with the rules themselves. There are better ways to achieve that kind of subtly in a dueling system.

23 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

Do you need Raitsugu to remove a clan champ, or is Kakita whatshisname just there to send himself and another guy home for honor? Maybe play a few more games with the rules and find a meta for them before declaring them trash.

Don't get me started. Let's just stick to the most egregious problems and then work our way down.

23 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

Maybe play a few more games with the rules and find a meta for them before declaring them trash.

I play everyday. Deck build almost every two. I have been constantly in the game since release.

23 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

My concern is seeing the new system devolve into a similar state where duels are issued and there's never any risk.

Just because I am saying the current rules are broken does not mean I want to go back to the old L5R dueling. I want the dueling to have an element of randomness, but give the character with the highest skill an advantage...a chance for a character to dishonor themselves, while allowing honorable characters to act honorably...to have an honor component, without the possibility of either side losing the game after result of TWO duels...and most important, anytime someone triggers a duel, both players become very aware that dueling is dangerous. THAT would be a fun mechanic. And there are ways to have that system, FFG just hasn't found it yet.

23 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

I'd argue that the system is meant to push against just bidding 5 and bully dueling every turn, and saying that it punished you for doing so is kind of missing the point.

Bakunin-san, in this thread, we have torn the dueling rules apart. We all understand the goal FFG put forward as to why the dueling rules are that way they are. Truly, and with respect, it is you who has missed the point. You may, or may not, have read the entire thread. But I invite you to look it over again. Those us that have the opinion that the dueling rules are broken have argued the point from multiple directions. And, just speaking for me at this point, the more I think about it, the worse the dueling rules look. Please, take another read of the topic.