Just now, shosuko said:

RELEASE THE KRAKEN!

Aye!

So I have taken suggestions and ideas from folks on this forum about the best means to duel and when and I have been completely won over by the new dueling mechanic. Its smooth, but can be worked with in various ways.

1. Contingency Plan works with the Honor Bid. since dueling is another Honor Bid Contingency plan can work to modify the dial.

2. Good Omens works after the duel if you find you bid more and had to give up some honor, you can get something from this exchange. this is a great combo with Kaezin if your sending some horde of Lion home, you can then get some extra Fate for him.

With a Fine Katana, and honored, Kakita Kaezin is looking at MIL 7 which will be handily above most opponents in a POL fight. I often times use him in POL fights over MIL for this reason. I treat him essentially as a Courtiers enforcer. He can bid 1, and on average still win against a LOT of POL opponents (Crab not withstanding...). If I know I wont win a fight against multiple opponents, his ability baits them into a high honor bid to keep their personalities on the field and lets him run home with some of their honor and be useful for future conflicts. In two conflicts in two separate games I managed to have him run home with 4 honor stolen from the opponent, without the province breaking.

I am currently trying to fit in the Duelist Crane Attachment, dueling to bow.

Dueling is a really fun mind game.

2 hours ago, shosuko said:

RELEASE THE KRAKEN!

You Called?

Okay, I did get some feedback from Nate French regarding bid value limits. Here is the question and response:

" A question regarding honor dial bids. Per the Rules Reference entry "Bid Value" (pg. 3), The value of a bid may exceed five (the highest number on the honor dial), or may be reduced to zero. The issue has been raised within the community, what if multiple reaction abilities are played on the same bid? For example, Contingency Plan and Bayushi Manipulator both have abilities that change the value of the bid. As these abilities do not have a "Max X per [period]" limitation, can an honor bid value continue to be raised indefinitely, so long as there are additional, legal abilities to be played? Or is there a maximum limit that an honor bid value can be increased to prevent abusing the honor bidding system?"

"There is no maximum value to which a bid can be increased.

Note that the Bausihi [sic] Manipulator Reaction is bound by the standard “once per round per copy” limit that applies to all triggered effects, and Contingency Plan would be bound by the number of copies in hand."

[Nate French, 20.10.2017]

tl;dr Unless we get an (unexpected) overrule in the RR, bid value manipulation works as intended. Feel free to pile on the increases and bid yourself into a dishonor loss anytime.

2 hours ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Okay, I did get some feedback from Nate French regarding bid value limits. Here is the question and response:

" A question regarding honor dial bids. Per the Rules Reference entry "Bid Value" (pg. 3), The value of a bid may exceed five (the highest number on the honor dial), or may be reduced to zero. The issue has been raised within the community, what if multiple reaction abilities are played on the same bid? For example, Contingency Plan and Bayushi Manipulator both have abilities that change the value of the bid. As these abilities do not have a "Max X per [period]" limitation, can an honor bid value continue to be raised indefinitely, so long as there are additional, legal abilities to be played? Or is there a maximum limit that an honor bid value can be increased to prevent abusing the honor bidding system?"

"There is no maximum value to which a bid can be increased.

Note that the Bausihi [sic] Manipulator Reaction is bound by the standard “once per round per copy” limit that applies to all triggered effects, and Contingency Plan would be bound by the number of copies in hand."

[Nate French, 20.10.2017]

tl;dr Unless we get an (unexpected) overrule in the RR, bid value manipulation works as intended. Feel free to pile on the increases and bid yourself into a dishonor loss anytime.

Thanks for the friendly word.

*sips purple kool-aide*

Drink

Drink

On 10/19/2017 at 6:33 PM, Klawtu said:

Just because I am curious, exactly where did I use a straw man?

Whose up for asking a thread over 18 if they'll get us some beer?

1 hour ago, RandomJC said:

Whose up for asking a thread over 18 if they'll get us some beer?

18? Must be from a civilised country. Round here it's 21 pages before threads can get beer.

36 minutes ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

18? Must be from a civilised country. Round here it's 21 pages before threads can get beer.

The Curved Swords thread is 21 anyway. I asked - hope we don't get caught...

5 hours ago, shosuko said:

The Curved Swords thread is 21 anyway. I asked - hope we don't get caught...

Just flash 'em that Mclovin ID and no one will question a thing...

It hurts me to see that this thread has gotten to 16 pages.

If you want to get to 21 fast everyone should make sure each of their posts has at least one massively tall .gif meme of a giraffe.

Ready. Go.

On 10/21/2017 at 5:56 PM, Shiba Jaimi said:

Just because I am curious, exactly where did I use a straw man?

I would guess in the post he quoted. However, in general your basis of argument is that "Because I can make bad choices, I can lose the game quickly" and then want to argue semantics about the word "Cost". This really makes you appear irrational.

On 10/22/2017 at 8:04 AM, kraken78 said:

It hurts me to see that this thread has gotten to 16 pages.

If you want to get to 21 fast everyone should make sure each of their posts has at least one massively tall .gif meme of a giraffe.

Ready. Go.

Find one and I'll quote it!

4 minutes ago, Mirith said:

I would guess in the post he quoted. However, in general your basis of argument is that "Because I can make bad choices, I can lose the game quickly" and then want to argue semantics about the word "Cost". This really makes you appear irrational.

Don't you understand, how is it fair that you can lose the game first round because you can't do simple math?

2 hours ago, Mirith said:

I would guess in the post he quoted. However, in general your basis of argument is that "Because I can make bad choices, I can lose the game quickly" and then want to argue semantics about the word "Cost". This really makes you appear irrational.

Oh, ok...

On 22/10/2017 at 1:04 PM, kraken78 said:

It hurts me to see that this thread has gotten to 16 pages.

If you want to get to 21 fast everyone should make sure each of their posts has at least one massively tall .gif meme of a giraffe.

Ready. Go.

Finally solid arguments

On 10/21/2017 at 2:56 PM, Shiba Jaimi said:

Just because I am curious, exactly where did I use a straw man?

I'll gladly field this one. While there were a few examples of you both talking past one another this:

On 10/19/2017 at 5:31 PM, Shiba Jaimi said:

No. I am talking about what the mechanics of the dueling rules ALLOWS for, independent of anyone playing a game. An action that allows for a "4" point honor swing is a larger swing than any ring, clan champion, stronghold, holding, province, character, attachment or event. Clan champions cost "5" fate...Duelist Training costs "1". This is too powerful, specifically because of the dueling rules.

Let me help you out. Show me another single action that allows for a four point honor swing. Show me the card that does not have it's cost clearly printed on the card. Prove I am wrong about it being POSSIBLE to end a game in the first turn, in the first conflict, after the third duel (it can actually be done in two, but I am sticking with three for the moment). I am not talking about an individual game...I am talking about us stacking the deck, then show me another single action that can do that. When you can these things, then you are on the road to disproving the Thesis.

in response to this:

On 10/19/2017 at 3:12 PM, Mirith said:

And on your point of "Its too powerful!" That is because you are choosing your costs poorly. Don't choose duels where you have to bid 5 and potentially lose 4 honor. Bad play doesn't make rules broken. What you are describing is basically bad play. In Chess, you don't intentionally move your Queen where it is easily captured for no reason. In MtG, you generally don't swing with your 1/1 while you have no cards in hand if your opponent has a 3/3 that they can block with. You are basically arguing that bad choices makes the game unbalanced.

was the most egregious example in my opinion. Mirith wasn't arguing any of those points just that the only way for the action to allow for a 4 point honor swing is for you to chose to bid high. There is player interaction and yes sometimes you'll be forced to chose between bidding high and potentially losing a lot of honor or bidding low and taking the loss effect. The same thing happens when you bid for draw, is the potential victory in a combat from drawing 5 cards worth potentially losing 4 honor (well 5 if they are sneaky)? You have to decide what you want to do and where you want to commit your resources.

As for the cost if you reread the post you'll note that the " Cost" they were referring to in their earlier argument was opportunity cost not actual costs printed on the card. You even quoted them when they said that.

On 10/19/2017 at 3:12 PM, Mirith said:

Costs aren't just things printed on a card. There are many different kinds of costs. Perhaps you should take an economics class to learn about such things. In terms of the game, costs are what you pay to try and achieve a particular goal. Individual cards themselves have costs, which you pay, like the Fate cost, or the honor cost on Assassination. However, you also pay the opportunity cost of not having that card available to use later. Perhaps it would have been better used later, not now? Other opportunity costs are choices you didn't make.

....

If you don't like the word "Cost" choose a different word, but the concept is ESSENTIAL to any sophisticated strategy game.

Nobody is saying it's not possible to end a game in turn 1 due to duels but it requires you choosing to bid higher than you can afford multiple times. There's a difference between "this card type allows my opponent to kill me turn 1" and "this card type allows me to make play mistakes that will end up with me losing the game turn 1." You need to keep track of your honor just like you need to keep track of your provinces.

On 10/23/2017 at 11:01 AM, Klawtu said:

On 10/21/2017 at 2:56 PM, Shiba Jaimi said:

Just because I am curious, exactly where did I use a straw man?

I'll gladly field this one. While there were a few examples of you both talking past one another this:

Thanks...

On 10/23/2017 at 11:01 AM, Klawtu said:

And on your point of "Its too powerful!" That is because you are choosing your costs poorly.

On 10/23/2017 at 11:01 AM, Klawtu said:

was the most egregious example in my opinion. Mirith wasn't arguing any of those points just that the only way for the action to allow for a 4 point honor swing is for you to chose to bid high. There is player interaction and yes sometimes you'll be forced to chose between bidding high and potentially losing a lot of honor or bidding low and taking the loss effect.

I agree. He wasn't arguing any of the points I raised. And looking at the post, we all know how the dueling works. And, just for the record, I am not arguing about me playing. I don't play duels...not since I became convinced the dueling rules were broken.

On 10/23/2017 at 11:01 AM, Klawtu said:

On 10/19/2017 at 3:12 PM, Mirith said:

In terms of the game, costs are what you pay to try and achieve a particular goal. Individual cards themselves have costs, which you pay, like the Fate cost, or the honor cost on Assassination. However, you also pay the opportunity cost of not having that card available to use later. Perhaps it would have been better used later, not now? Other opportunity costs are choices you didn't make.

....

If you don't like the word "Cost" choose a different word, but the concept is ESSENTIAL to any sophisticated strategy game.

Nobody is saying it's not possible to end a game in turn 1 due to duels but it requires you choosing to bid higher than you can afford multiple times. There's a difference between "this card type allows my opponent to kill me turn 1" and "this card type allows me to make play mistakes that will end up with me losing the game turn 1." You need to keep track of your honor just like you need to keep track of your provinces.

I see what you are getting at. But I was trying to be very specific, "cost" being "the price you pay for enacting an effect on the board". When Mirith started expanding the definition outward, I did not see it as the narrow thing I was talking about. And I agree, he should have used a different word. I mean, he said it himself. But to your point of not having it to use later...etc..., how would it be any different from any other action, in that regard? It seems like that point would balance itself out...becoming not worth talking about...wouldn't it?

To your point of "Nobody is saying it's not possible to end a game in turn 1 due to duels but it requires you choosing to bid higher"...Yes, it would. Someone would have to choose to bid higher. I think we all know how the duels work.

To your last point, "...need to keep track of your honor..." If I said yes, would that be fine. And it seems like you are saying, "Manage you honor like any other resource you would use and spend on any other board effect." I do not think you are wrong, but you end up right in the point I was making originally about the cost of duels not working like anything else.

So, I gathered:

1.) We were talking past each other with the differing definitions of "cost"

2.) "Nobody is saying it's not possible to end a game in turn 1 due to duels"

3.) "You need to keep track of your honor..."

yea, I finally liked a jaimi post...

11 hours ago, Shiba Jaimi said:

Thanks...

I agree. He wasn't arguing any of the points I raised. And looking at the post, we all know how the dueling works. And, just for the record, I am not arguing about me playing. I don't play duels...not since I became convinced the dueling rules were broken.

I see what you are getting at. But I was trying to be very specific, "cost" being "the price you pay for enacting an effect on the board". When Mirith started expanding the definition outward, I did not see it as the narrow thing I was talking about. And I agree, he should have used a different word. I mean, he said it himself. But to your point of not having it to use later...etc..., how would it be any different from any other action, in that regard? It seems like that point would balance itself out...becoming not worth talking about...wouldn't it?

To your point of "Nobody is saying it's not possible to end a game in turn 1 due to duels but it requires you choosing to bid higher"...Yes, it would. Someone would have to choose to bid higher. I think we all know how the duels work.

To your last point, "...need to keep track of your honor..." If I said yes, would that be fine. And it seems like you are saying, "Manage you honor like any other resource you would use and spend on any other board effect." I do not think you are wrong, but you end up right in the point I was making originally about the cost of duels not working like anything else.

So, I gathered:

1.) We were talking past each other with the differing definitions of "cost"

2.) "Nobody is saying it's not possible to end a game in turn 1 due to duels"

3.) "You need to keep track of your honor..."

Yes, you are finally understanding our point. But I would like to say that what I describe is still a "price you pay to enact a board effect", however I'm also pointing out that there are prices you can pay outside what is directly listed on the card. To me, sending a guy to your Conflict number 1, means you cannot send him to your conflict number 2, or your opponents conflicts 1 and 2, which is an example of an "opportunity cost" from basic Economics. So while I understand your issue with me using the word 'cost', I do want to point out that it is quite applicable, outside of the technical definition within the rulebook, at least on a strategic level. I would argue that there is an optional cost you can pay to try and win a duel. It is not guaranteed in most situations, but you are at least risking the amount of honor you bid (-1), meaning that when you decide if you want to win that duel, you need to make sure you can risk that honor and not lose.

9 hours ago, Mirumoto Seiichiro said:

Also wish to congratulate everyone on making this the longest thread on the L5R beta forum. Give yourselves a hand you deserve it.

Guys, we've got some competition from some beta upstarts

18 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Guys, we've got some competition from some beta upstarts

We aren't to page 18 yet, need more giraffes