Wait, are the Beta Upstarts also about dueling?

1 minute ago, Mirith said:

Wait, are the Beta Upstarts also about dueling?

Nope, just about how bad the RPG is and how no one can get along.

3 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Nope, just about how bad the RPG is and how no one can get along.

Yep, read through it the other day and it is even more pointless than the "discussion" here.

Oh, I know I saw a thread or two over there about dueling. But that was being reworked as of the beta update so maybe there aren't so many complaints. Granted, there was an issue with the rules as written where you could technically land a critical strike or something or other, and remove someone's limb, but because it didn't technically cause them to take any wounds, a duel to first blood wouldn't be ended because the condition for ending it was to cause wounds to the opponent.

10 minutes ago, Yakamo no Oni said:

Yep, read through it the other day and it is even more pointless than the "discussion" here.

Hey, we actually managed to get our points across without too much anger and bile.

14 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Hey, we actually managed to get our points across without too much anger and bile.

Yes, but after a while you ran in circles, only repeating what has been said like ten pages ago. Not that it wasn't entertaining to read! Only pointless.

15 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Hey, we actually managed to get our points across without too much anger and bile.

Define "t oo much."

Just now, Yakamo no Oni said:

Yes, but after a while you ran in circles, only repeating what has been said like ten pages ago. Not that it wasn't entertaining to read! Only pointless.

I will not argue against it being pointless.

Just now, Klawtu said:

Define "t oo much."

I was never angry, and Jaimi never made personal attacks against anyone. I will admit we made things that could be construed as personal attacks since we were basically saying the player in question was just making bad play decisions.

11 minutes ago, Mirith said:

I will not argue against it being pointless.

You kind of did!

27 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Hey, we actually managed to get our points across without too much anger and bile.

Just now, Yakamo no Oni said:

You kind of did!

Was it a practical and useful use of my time? No. No it wasn't.

19 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Was it a practical and useful use of my time? No. No it wasn't.

Heyyyy are you just doing that thing where you ask and answer your own questions? Yes I do believe you are.

1 hour ago, Mirith said:

I will not argue against it being pointless.

OMK Guys, I just played a game that had some duels in it against the Crane duelist, and dueling is SOOO broken...it's ridiculous! Like seriously, they should just scrap the concept completely and ban the cards already made with dueling abilities. I mean, we had these duels, and I fully expected to lose them and I was like, "that's okay, because my opponent is going to have to lose honor because he's going to win and that's what happens when you win a duel." But the stupid broken system didn't work, I didn't get ANY honor from that dirtbag, he just sat back and whooped me, and I got NOTHING for losing. Ridiculous!

I realize this thread has devolved to the silly, but just to get back on theme, figured I'd mention my experience with a duel yesterday. Though we didn't know it at the time, it wound up being highly influential to the game overall.

I was playing Dragon against Lion. Lion was significantly ahead in honor, but I'd already broken one of his provinces and he hadn't broken any of mine. He launched a fairly big attack, but it was against my "Rally to the Cause" province, so the military conflict became political. He still had a decent strength, but nowhere near as overwhelming as he'd counted on. I defended with Raitsugu, and wound up dueling his Steadfast Samurai - neither had attachments, so base strength was 3 to 1. Now, I expected to lose the duel (Raitsugu had 1 fate, the Samurai had none), and ultimately lose the province, but figured I could get a couple of honor out of this which I could use for card draw on the next turn - like I said, I was well behind on honor at this time, so I needed the boost.

OK, so I bid 2. My reasoning here was that if I won the duel, and killed off the Samurai, I was almost certain to keep my province (winning the battle was out of the question at this point.) So, if my opponent was going for the tie and bidding 3, I'd pull out the win and get 1 honor - major victory. On the other hand, if he bid higher, I wouldn't get the win, but would get more honor, which would be more cards later. In the event, he was playing way too cautious with his honor, and only bid 1. I had to pay him an honor, but he lost the duel, and wound up not breaking the province. That threw his tempo off, and he was never able to recover it. I stayed somewhat dangerously low in honor throughout the game, and always wanted more card draw, but that event proved decisive and he was never able to make a comeback.

Again, neither of us realized at the time how decisive that duel would be, but we both had solid reasons for what we bid, and it wound up being a very important event. And next time we play, I fully expect him to overreact and bid too much if we duel again

6 hours ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

OMK Guys, I just played a game that had some duels in it against the Crane duelist, and dueling is SOOO broken...it's ridiculous! Like seriously, they should just scrap the concept completely and ban the cards already made with dueling abilities. I mean, we had these duels, and I fully expected to lose them and I was like, "that's okay, because my opponent is going to have to lose honor because he's going to win and that's what happens when you win a duel." But the stupid broken system didn't work, I didn't get ANY honor from that dirtbag, he just sat back and whooped me, and I got NOTHING for losing. Ridiculous!

Yeah, we're going to need more info before accepting your point. How exactly did the system fail, who was the other duelist, what were the bids, etc?

19 minutes ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

Yeah, we're going to need more info before accepting your point. How exactly did the system fail, who was the other duelist, what were the bids, etc?

I sort of assumed he was doing a parody overreaction, actually. I don't think he was serious.

come on, even if your dont think that the current duel meachnic sucks u have to admit that it´ is simply not worth doing it.

and if FFG doesnt change the mechanic no one will use it till you get duelists for your deck with such high stats that you will win

anyway, no matter if the other player bids 5 honor. and then we are again at the same problem that the CCG had: Dueling is no contest anymore, the result is set befor

the duel even starts. I challange you, you accept, you die. Let us revive the great times of the" Grey Crane" and "Iajustsu Duel". The we can skip the entire duel-thing

and just go to cards like :" Action : Target opposing Personality. Discard the Personality".

22 minutes ago, Vendettar said:

come on, even if your dont think that the current duel meachnic sucks u have to admit that it´ is simply not worth doing it.

and if FFG doesnt change the mechanic no one will use it till you get duelists for your deck with such high stats that you will win

anyway, no matter if the other player bids 5 honor. and then we are again at the same problem that the CCG had: Dueling is no contest anymore, the result is set befor

the duel even starts. I challange you, you accept, you die. Let us revive the great times of the" Grey Crane" and "Iajustsu Duel". The we can skip the entire duel-thing

and just go to cards like :" Action : Target opposing Personality. Discard the Personality".

I don’t think it sucks. I like it a lot. It creates points of tension in the game.

I am a Dragon player, although I do play the other clans for variety, fun, and insight into how they work. I have been in a lot of duels in the last 2 months. My opponents who had a strong negative response to dueling uniformally thought it was too powerful a tool in my toolbox. I have yet to play anyone who thought dueling was weak.

33 minutes ago, Vendettar said:

come on, even if your dont think that the current duel meachnic sucks u have to admit that it´ is simply not worth doing it.

and if FFG doesnt change the mechanic no one will use it till you get duelists for your deck with such high stats that you will win

anyway, no matter if the other player bids 5 honor. and then we are again at the same problem that the CCG had: Dueling is no contest anymore, the result is set befor

the duel even starts. I challange you, you accept, you die. Let us revive the great times of the" Grey Crane" and "Iajustsu Duel". The we can skip the entire duel-thing

and just go to cards like :" Action : Target opposing Personality. Discard the Personality".

You... sir... are no Shiba Jaimi. You are just a troll.

2 hours ago, Vendettar said:

come on, even if your dont think that the current duel meachnic sucks u have to admit that it´ is simply not worth doing it.

and if FFG doesnt change the mechanic no one will use it till you get duelists for your deck with such high stats that you will win

anyway, no matter if the other player bids 5 honor. and then we are again at the same problem that the CCG had: Dueling is no contest anymore, the result is set befor

the duel even starts. I challange you, you accept, you die. Let us revive the great times of the" Grey Crane" and "Iajustsu Duel". The we can skip the entire duel-thing

and just go to cards like :" Action : Target opposing Personality. Discard the Personality".

There is so much I don't like about this. And it can be summed up with the use of "u" instead of you.

On 10/9/2017 at 0:54 PM, Shiba Jaimi said:

First things first, I love the IP. I missed the magic of L5R CCG over the years. I stopped playing because AEG broke the game. Now that it is alive again, I am a happier person.

That said, the dueling mechanics are a problem. Let me define it, expressly. In the game, one character challenges another character to a duel. The "players" each set a number on their honor dial. Next, both "players" reveal their honor dials. The "player" that bid the highest give the other "player" honor equaling the difference between the honor dials. The players then add the number they selected on the honor dial to the appropriate stat and the character with the highest total wins the duel. Then the players follow the text on the card that defines the duel resolution.

Here is the problem. Under these rules, the better duelist (character with the highest stat) almost always loses honor. Here is the formula:

1. Compare the character's dueling stat, (normally military stat) pick the lowest, designate this as "X".
2. Add 5 to the low stat, designate this as "Y": X + 5 = Y
3. Take other character's dueling stat, designate this as "Z"
4. Subtract "Z" from "Y", designate this as "N": Y - Z = N
5. Add 1 to N, designate this as "M": N + 1 = M
6. M is the number you put on the honor dial to have the character with the highest stat win the duel.
   • Note: If M is less than 1, choose 1 on the honor dial.

The character with the lowest stat just sets the dial to "1", and as long as the duel stat are within 5 of each other, the character with the lowest stat always GAINS HONOR AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BETTER DUELIST!!!

Now, I believe FFG's position on this is, "a character could use other methods to win the 'conflict' that the duelist has challenged them to" (ie Scorpion Clan members could use poison, Lion Clan could kick dirty in the opponent's eye, Crab Clan member could wait for the strike and then crack the weakling over the head with a War Fan...etc.) This next idea, I am expressing as if I were inside the game world... Dueling is a special thing, it has a definition. All duels are fights, but not all fights are duels. If an honorable SAMURAI challenges a person to a duel, that samurai is signifying a fight with VERY specific rules. These rules are so specific, it is rare to hear of someone seeing one, let alone actually FIGHTING one. A duelist, someone who has trained to duel, would not challenge someone to a duel in order to lose. THEY WENT THROUGH TRAINING IN ODER NOT TO LOSE!

Stepping out of the game world, the dueling mechanics are all wrong. The duels should be deadly, I mean, when a duel is triggered in the game, it should be just as threatening as "bow", "send home" or "discard"...after all, IT IS A DUEL! Someone is about to be hit with a KATANA! If a duel challenge is made and accepted, both parties are agreeing to the specific rules of the duel. If someone cheats, then they are a cheater and SHOULD LOOSE HONOR! The honorable duelist that followed the rules should not LOOSE honor because someone jerk-off with a sword CHEATED! To even have to articulate this idea feels ridiculous. DUELING IS BROKEN!

So, dueling is broken...how do you fix it. Here is the best way I came with, so far. Make dueling refusable, give the refusal a penalty but give losing the duel a larger penalty. As an example, "refusal: Bow" (this would represent the character saying, "I bow to your skill because I do not want to duel you") or "refusal: lose 2 honor" (this is the lose of honor by not acting honorably and risking your life over an issue for your clan). For examples of winning a duel: "loser bows, winner gains 3 honor" or "loser is killed, discard losing character". Under this format you can have duels for anything...even duels for honor, specifically. Plus, the better "honorable" duelist always wins and the loser is always penalized. This is what duels should be. And if you want to build in cheating, MAKE THE DARN CARD! You can make a card with two effects, one for dueling, one for normal play. But for the sake of the Kami's Blessings...DON'T penalize the winner of the duel.

Am I wrong?

The rules work and do represent the game world (this isn't say they are perfect)

1) If the duelist and the non-duelist each pick 0 honor on their dial (which would be a 100% contest of skill) the duelist wins (assuming they challenged someone with a lower stat/not as good as them). This shows their superior skill.

2) Someone who isn't as skilled can still win through other means. Just because there are rules doesn't mean "cheating" can't happen.

3) You're confused on the rules. If a scoprion bids 5 to a crane duelists 2, and thus wins the duel through dishonorable means, the scropion has to give the crane honor. The scropion loses honor and hte crane gains it.

4 Not all duels are to the death/deathly.

11 hours ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

Yeah, we're going to need more info before accepting your point. How exactly did the system fail, who was the other duelist, what were the bids, etc?

10 hours ago, agarrett said:

I sort of assumed he was doing a parody overreaction, actually. I don't think he was serious.

Sorry, yeah what agarrett said. Ironically since it was the Crane Kakita Duelist, losing the duels ended up working in my favor because of misplays I had made leading into them. Funny how you can be familiar with the rules and still play horribly.

Whoops, guess I should check the sarcasm detector

On 27.10.2017 at 3:40 PM, Mirith said:

You... sir... are no Shiba Jaimi. You are just a troll.

i am trolling caus i have an opinion?

#vollspack