14 hours ago, lyinggod said:

The real question is what do you mean by "good" alternative. The granularity of Champions/Hero means that it can accomidate (just about) any concept or ability that you conceive of. Unfortunetly the price paid to maintain balance across scale (from Normal to beyond superheroes) is the use of percentage increases in calculating ability costs; in other words ->MATH<-. The less granular a system becames, the easier it is since powers become increasingly predefined. GURPS suffers from this to a small degree since its abilities are a bit broader and math becomes a bit simpler. The least granular are games like Heroes Unlimited from Paladium Games where every power is predefined and, like spells in DnD, they only (generally) scale in damage or radius as levels change (I solved this by avoiding all level based games).

It seems to me that Genesys may have a difficult time portraying super powers using a talent tree type system. I think that the best way they can approach super powers is with a base power similar to a base force power and then add qualities, similar to weapon qualities and/or mods in SW EtoE. Then each quality added to the base power increases Strain to use if an active power, or has some other balancer if a passive power such as Armor or perhaps each mod/quality is just bought with XP. I am, however, willing to admit that Champions may have biased me against a lack of flexibility other superhero games (and universal systems).

True, you can do pretty much anything with Champions/HERO, I was in a fantasy campaign using Champions, this was before HERO or the early fantasy port, but that doesn't make other systems less flexible. Systems that are more narrative and less math aren't less flexible just less simulationist. There have been successful heroes systems based on fate., which is more narrative than Genesys and there have been flops, looking at you Marvel Heroic Role-playing. I believe that it has to do with mindset. D&D is very simulation oriented. It was made to be a miniatures game. That is where many of us started.

Mechanically in the game, there is no difference between what you are describing and a talent tree, just how they are purchased. The key is get the feel of supers, to make the players feel that they are portraying their very own hero.

1 hour ago, TrainedMunkey said:

D&D is very simulation oriented. It was made to be a miniatures game. That is where many of us started.

For what its worth D&D acutally evolved out of a miniatures game and despite its many revisions has remained too closely tied to those origins (IMHO).

Mechanically in the game, there is no difference between what you are describing and a talent tree, just how they are purchased. The key is get the feel of supers, to make the players feel that they are portraying their very own hero.

To my mind, it's not the mechanical approach but the representation as well as "character sheet economy". This can be compared to skills in Fate vs Fate Accelerated. If each hero type (brick, speedster, mentalist, etc) is a talent tree then new powers, stunts, or increases in magnitude are limited to what is on the tree. In this case, the hero has only a few powers even if they are widely encompassing (like Fate). If each power is its own tree then a character with 5 powers (say Super strength, flight, Invulnerability, Super Sight, and Super hearing) will have 5 talent trees. If powers are treated as equipment with mods as in SW then each power requires limited representation and powers can be much more diverse. I think this is best way to have diverse powers without it being so incredibly vague as Fate but not as involved as Hero/Gurps while staying in line with existing mechanics.

44 minutes ago, lyinggod said:

To my mind, it's not the mechanical approach but the representation as well as "character sheet economy". This can be compared to skills in Fate vs Fate Accelerated. If each hero type (brick, speedster, mentalist, etc) is a talent tree then new powers, stunts, or increases in magnitude are limited to what is on the tree. In this case, the hero has only a few powers even if they are widely encompassing (like Fate). If each power is its own tree then a character with 5 powers (say Super strength, flight, Invulnerability, Super Sight, and Super hearing) will have 5 talent trees. If powers are treated as equipment with mods as in SW then each power requires limited representation and powers can be much more diverse. I think this is best way to have diverse powers without it being so incredibly vague as Fate but not as involved as Hero/Gurps while staying in line with existing mechanics.

Perhaps instead for Supers, the buy-in to each talent tree/specialization is simply 0. You still have to pay for the climb to the high ranks of any given tree, you just don't have to pay an admission fee to start climbing. You could get a very diverse talent set that way, and while it would certainly be overpowered squaring off a super and a medieval warrior, the super isn't "broken" in their own setting.

Frankly I've been toying with trying to figure out an alternative to what seems like a steep price to "multiclassing." Basically, you can't reasonably build Luke Skywalker as a starting character. He's too good at too many things too quickly.

3 hours ago, Dragonshadow said:

Perhaps instead for Supers, the buy-in to each talent tree/specialization is simply 0. You still have to pay for the climb to the high ranks of any given tree, you just don't have to pay an admission fee to start climbing. You could get a very diverse talent set that way, and while it would certainly be overpowered squaring off a super and a medieval warrior, the super isn't "broken" in their own setting.

Frankly I've been toying with trying to figure out an alternative to what seems like a steep price to "multiclassing." Basically, you can't reasonably build Luke Skywalker as a starting character. He's too good at too many things too quickly.

Luke was not inexperienced, he shot a lot of Womp Rats. Joking aside I would argue that he is good at many things. Don't want to derail this thread.

Level 0 tier would have to be really weak.. otherwise players would just take them all, lol.

4 hours ago, Dragonshadow said:

You still have to pay for the climb to the high ranks of any given tree, you just don't have to pay an admission fee to start climbing. You could get a very diverse talent set that way, and while it would certainly be overpowered squaring off a super and a medieval warrior, the super isn't "broken" in their own setting.

Frankly I've been toying with trying to figure out an alternative to what seems like a steep price to "multiclassing." Basically, you can't reasonably build Luke Skywalker as a starting character. He's too good at too many things too quickly.

I wasn't even thinking about the XP cost of each template but the number of templates. 1 template per power means potentially half a dozen templates or more. Each power archetype (brick, speedster, etc) as a template seems to rather restrictive in diversity once you exceed the power level of "street level hero" like Punisher or Daredevil (or Jedi).

You bring up another good point. If all characters are limited to the same attribute and skill maximums as presented in SW EotE then the scaling between superheroes and Medieval warriors becomes less clear. If superheroes can have attributes well above 5 then the scale is better maintained (and more dice are sold). If powers are talents which require strain or story points to activate then Superman would not be super for very long before tiring. The way Force and Destiny does the Force (space magic) is fine for a few abilities that primarily affected by magnitude or ability refinement. However if power diversity or quanity is desired then the FaD spell model becames a poor analog for powers or spells.

Hopefully super powers will fall somewhere between the (for some) mind-numbing vagueness of Fate and (for some) the mind-numbing options provided by Hero. That why treating power modifications similar to Mods and items Qualitys seems to be the best balancing point to my mind.

1 hour ago, TrainedMunkey said:

Level 0 tier would have to be really weak.. otherwise players would just take them all, lol.

I meant having multiple careers/specializations wouldn't cost the escalating tax to just buy into a career/spec. All first rank talents are 5 points, correct? If you want to spread out your purchases to buy the base row of talents across all the trees, you probably won't be able to do too many things WELL.

Where it gets problematic is which skills are unlocked by a career. So perhaps buying into other trees at a reduced cost would work.

Regardless, it's tough to know what we even have as a starting point since FFG seems curiously restrained with the info they're divulging for a book that's already at the printer.

2 hours ago, lyinggod said:

I wasn't even thinking about the XP cost of each template but the number of templates. 1 template per power means potentially half a dozen templates or more. Each power archetype (brick, speedster, etc) as a template seems to rather restrictive in diversity once you exceed the power level of "street level hero" like Punisher or Daredevil (or Jedi).

You bring up another good point. If all characters are limited to the same attribute and skill maximums as presented in SW EotE then the scaling between superheroes and Medieval warriors becomes less clear. If superheroes can have attributes well above 5 then the scale is better maintained (and more dice are sold). If powers are talents which require strain or story points to activate then Superman would not be super for very long before tiring. The way Force and Destiny does the Force (space magic) is fine for a few abilities that primarily affected by magnitude or ability refinement. However if power diversity or quanity is desired then the FaD spell model becames a poor analog for powers or spells.

Hopefully super powers will fall somewhere between the (for some) mind-numbing vagueness of Fate and (for some) the mind-numbing options provided by Hero. That why treating power modifications similar to Mods and items Qualitys seems to be the best balancing point to my mind.

I'm not sure I entirely agree, every player character should be well above the baseline of an average person. In your example, the knight isn't a human in plate armor, he's a super hero that is powered by magical plate armor. In Star Wars, force wielding Jedi and Soldiers that wield vehicle mounted weaponry are exceptional beings in the galaxy, and I don't believe should be considered average.

If your world consists of beings that are all born/gained extraordinary abilities then sure, you would have to put in some sort of measurement to the baseline, and then scale your players up to become extraordinary again.

I like your idea of adding qualities, and think that it would have a solid fit in a Super Setting. Additionally, the setting could contain rules for Cosmic level super powers by including rule that could take into account vehicle style abilities. Someone already suggested vehicle type damage (X10) and that could be the same with armor, movement, sensors, etc.. I'm sure there is a way to grow Super Powers that wouldn't be difficult, but may be hard to keep balanced.

I think I'd do super characteristics by reducing difficulties.

Quote

Super Strength
Reduce the difficulty of all Brawn skill checks by one per rank of Super Strength to a minimum of Simple.

3 hours ago, Simon Retold said:

I think I'd do super characteristics by reducing difficulties.

That would work from a narrative perspective better. Most experienced supers role players will expect simulation, i.e. the stronger you are the higher your Brawn. I like the reduction of difficulty better though, that way you will get more hits and advantage.

On 10/17/2017 at 6:41 AM, lyinggod said:

For what its worth D&D acutally evolved out of a miniatures game and despite its many revisions has remained too closely tied to those origins (IMHO).

Yeah, I remember researching D&D at my library ages ago, and found the original "Chainmail" game on the shelf. Once I read that, some of the things in the OD&D books made sense (especially ranges, which were measured in inches and made no sense if you didn't know it was intended to be based on miniatures).

The problem is that super strength should be able to absolutely crush in combat. Hulk and superman level strength can't be done with an attack with a bunch of boost dice and free advantage. They are capable of moving literal mountains with ease.

3 hours ago, thecowley said:

The problem is that super strength should be able to absolutely crush in combat. Hulk and superman level strength can't be done with an attack with a bunch of boost dice and free advantage. They are capable of moving literal mountains with ease.

In such cases there could be an extraordinary talent like superhuman strength. You could multiply the damage done 9in steps by 2, 5, 10, 100 and so on. Though literally when Superman hits a normal villain, it's only about hit or miss. If he hits with the intention of killing his enemy, you could rule it as an instant kill no matter how many accesses are achieved.

very true darthdude

On 11/5/2017 at 10:14 PM, thecowley said:

The problem is that super strength should be able to absolutely crush in combat. Hulk and superman level strength can't be done with an attack with a bunch of boost dice and free advantage. They are capable of moving literal mountains with ease.

It could be done with advantage, similar to quality of weapons. You would have to buy the levels, but activate with advantage. Most of the time in generic systems like this you have to buy levels, even in equipment with expeirence rather than creds like in SW RPG. You pretty much have to do it that way unless you are going to introduce a generic money system a la Savage Worlds.

Super powers could be like skills. They could be split into two different skills - control and power perhaps. You'd combine those when using the power. Rank 1, 3 and 5 of skill in power and control would give access to some power specific talents. There should be several so even people with the same power will not have the same talents.

On 10/9/2017 at 10:31 AM, kaosoe said:

Personally, I would use a system specifically designed to handle super heroes.

Agreed.

Most efforts to have superheroes in an RPG that's not specifically built around superheroes tend to fall flat out of an attempt to keep things balanced between the PCs that have powers and those that don't. It starts getting especially wonky if you've got supers that are of vastly different power ranges, such as Superman compared to Green Arrow or Batman (at least when he's being written for his own books).

As much as I like the narrative dice system as it's used in Star Wars, I really don't see it being able to fully handle the wide breadth and range of powers that a full superhero setting would cover.

11 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Agreed.

Most efforts to have superheroes in an RPG that's not specifically built around superheroes tend to fall flat out of an attempt to keep things balanced between the PCs that have powers and those that don't. It starts getting especially wonky if you've got supers that are of vastly different power ranges, such as Superman compared to Green Arrow or Batman (at least when he's being written for his own books).

As much as I like the narrative dice system as it's used in Star Wars, I really don't see it being able to fully handle the wide breadth and range of powers that a full superhero setting would cover.

I hope that at least "below-Superman" powers can be utilized. I want to get my 9yrs old son into RPG and hope that Genesys can handle Power Rangers (or maybe Ninjago) to achieve my goal. They are still superior to normal humans when morphed but not overly I'd say.

15 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Agreed.

Most efforts to have superheroes in an RPG that's not specifically built around superheroes tend to fall flat out of an attempt to keep things balanced between the PCs that have powers and those that don't. It starts getting especially wonky if you've got supers that are of vastly different power ranges, such as Superman compared to Green Arrow or Batman (at least when he's being written for his own books).

As much as I like the narrative dice system as it's used in Star Wars, I really don't see it being able to fully handle the wide breadth and range of powers that a full superhero setting would cover.

Well it varies, Cypher, Marvel Heroic Roleplaying and GURPS fell flat. My opinion of course, many folks play GURPS Supers. Savage Worlds did an excellent job with Rifts and Supers. I played Mutants and Masterminds and Heroes Unlimited for years. D20 is not meant for Supers, yet it worked. The best system is HERO of course, it started out as a Supers game but became a generic system. Unfortunately I just don't have the time to do HERO anymore, not in college and the military anymore, besides math hurts my brain these days. FACERIP and DC were great in their day.

The generic systems that succeed are either math heavy, which evens things out, see HERO, or have a system to balance via point buy, see Savage Worlds and many others.

If you are going to have Green Arrow in an adventure with Superman, you have to beef him up, give him the same level of points to buy abilities. Batman easily hangs with Supes, kicked his butt on occasion. It's a matter of power levelin RPGs and writing in comics.

Could Genesys succede as a Supers setting, most definetly, it does not sound like they will release a Supers setting for Genesys however. Unless they can get a Marvel license, I believe Green Ronin still has DC, it would be a hard sell, and don't see them doing it.

42 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

If you are going to have Green Arrow in an adventure with Superman, you have to beef him up, give him the same level of points to buy abilities. Batman easily hangs with Supes, kicked his butt on occasion. It's a matter of power levelin RPGs and writing in comics.

Batman kicked Superman's *** because he leveraged his weakness. I imagine for supers to hang with normies in Genesys, to have the XP shakeout, there's going to be an entire list of weaknesses and vulnerabilities they'll need to pick from to reward them back XP.

Check this out. Click it a few times and think of creative ways to implement your Random Power via Narrative Dice.

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Random

19 minutes ago, Big Head Zach said:

Batman kicked Superman's *** because he leveraged his weakness. I imagine for supers to hang with normies in Genesys, to have the XP shakeout, there's going to be an entire list of weaknesses and vulnerabilities they'll need to pick from to reward them back XP.

Of course a Supers system would need this and Batman bought a talent that allowed him to know this weakness or perhaps just ranks in Intelligence. They would be same power level, Supes bought bought super might Batman bought super int. and cool gadgets/ Kryptonite.

2 hours ago, TrainedMunkey said:

Of course a Supers system would need this and Batman bought a talent that allowed him to know this weakness or perhaps just ranks in Intelligence. They would be same power level, Supes bought bought super might Batman bought super int. and cool gadgets/ Kryptonite.

This comparison gets weird because Batman is then assumed to have advanced knowledge of who he's paired against. Out of the blue he'd be at a severe disadvantage against any given superhero. That (and my EOTE memory is fuzzy) how much support does the current system have for spending XP on gadgets?

11 minutes ago, Big Head Zach said:

This comparison gets weird because Batman is then assumed to have advanced knowledge of who he's paired against. Out of the blue he'd be at a severe disadvantage against any given superhero. That (and my EOTE memory is fuzzy) how much support does the current system have for spending XP on gadgets?

There's plenty of talents that allow the flipping of a Destiny Point to construct a contraption, produce a gadget, think of a solution to the problem of the moment. That's how he happens to have his Anti-Shark Batspray at just the key moment.

1 hour ago, dresdinseven said:

There's plenty of talents that allow the flipping of a Destiny Point to construct a contraption, produce a gadget, think of a solution to the problem of the moment. That's how he happens to have his Anti-Shark Batspray at just the key moment.

That would be one of Batman's main strengths. utility belt - flip a destiny point and makes a ________ roll. If roll fails Destiny point is returned. or Bats rolls a lot of dice and gets a lot of Triumph. Triumph sounds too chancy to me though.

The thing about Batman is that he can be written at any power level. Doing street level gang wars, he’s a competent normal with lots of gadgets that actually exist. Doing Justice League, he has super human intelligence, unlimited funding for ultra-tech, and trained with mystic ninjas as a teenager.

Batman is infinitely scaleable.