One of my favorite genres has to be supers. Perhaps it's because I started with Champions, but I can't seem to find a supers RPG system that scratches the itch. I have tried most on the market and stuck with Savage Worlds for the longest.

Cypher system, another generic system, tries to solve the supers issue with power shifts.

The problem being of course that most of the generic systems are built for street level power levels.

How would you go about solving this issue?

Thanks

Munkey

I think issues will crop up when they try to account for everything from normal human, masked vigilantes all the way to Superman. If the superpowers are more-or-less equal in 'power level' across the board, then it would be easier to accommodate. And even if that power level is extreme, like tossing buildings around like cardboard boxes, the system can handle it well enough, because the narrative dice are pretty universal.

I think we have two ways to resolve this:

A) Humans, animals or "weak things" works always like minions.
The superior human/creatures works like rivals and they have it's own stats, but constructed with less points. They're special and stronger but nothing more than that.
Heroes works like normal characters.

B) Everyone keeps the system, but heroes works with special talents/skills that works similar than spaceships in Star Wars, with "x10" power effects vs normal creatures.

It's possible to create careers like the archetypes from Mutans & Masterminds.
Powers working like "once per scene", "use 1 story point to activate", etc.

Personally, I would use a system specifically designed to handle super heroes.

42 minutes ago, Bellyon said:

I think we have two ways to resolve this:

A) Humans, animals or "weak things" works always like minions.
The superior human/creatures works like rivals and they have it's own stats, but constructed with less points. They're special and stronger but nothing more than that.
Heroes works like normal characters.

B) Everyone keeps the system, but heroes works with special talents/skills that works similar than spaceships in Star Wars, with "x10" power effects vs normal creatures.

It's possible to create careers like the archetypes from Mutans & Masterminds.
Powers working like "once per scene", "use 1 story point to activate", etc.

Most generic systems have gone with option "B".

Been a while since I tried Mutants & Masterminds, second edition I believe, I don't remember powers activating via a point system?

In comics most heroes have a down and out mechanism or push beyond normal human limits moment. This is what makes them heroes, not their fancy powers. Guessing this is already accounted for in the base system via the motivations system.

36 minutes ago, kaosoe said:

Personally, I would use a system specifically designed to handle super heroes.

If I do that, going Champions. Try to get your typical table to play HERO and watch their eyes roll back into their head.

There are many good systems on the market for Supers. Unfortunately the old ways are no more. We used to try a new system every session pretty much. Most of my tables these days are not willing to try a new system.

I would agree if you try and adapt the full range of power levels for what constitutes a super hero it's not a great fit. Personally I don't think any system I've ever played really has. If you stick to a more grounded feel, like a Gotham environment, I think it would work fine.

1 hour ago, TrainedMunkey said:

Most generic systems have gone with option "B".

Been a while since I tried Mutants & Masterminds, second edition I believe, I don't remember powers activating via a point system?

In comics most heroes have a down and out mechanism or push beyond normal human limits moment. This is what makes them heroes, not their fancy powers. Guessing this is already accounted for in the base system via the motivations system.

I don't remember the power activation in MM, i was thinking just about the archetypes. The second part is just to make the system more practical to control super powers during the gameplay. Anyway, it's possible to create powers like magic.

Of course it's hard to guess at adapting Genesys to Supers without seeing the rules. If they go with a point buy system, it could be easily adapted. You want the all mighty Supes, buy super soak, super strength = super brawn. You want Bats you have less points to use to buy. Depending on who wrote Bats in comic. I wouldn't allow more characteristic points, you want super int, buy it with your level of buy points. That way you can keep it Gotham level if you want without too much fiddle.

I wasn't crazy about Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, which used a narrative system. This Narrative system is different however.

3 hours ago, TrainedMunkey said:

If I do that, going Champions. Try to get your typical table to play HERO and watch their eyes roll back into their head.

lol, I have just the opposite problem, our weekly group are dedicated HEROphiles (everone started playing HERO by '88 at the latest). The narrative approach and simplicity of Genesys isn't something they would be willing to try. Thankfully the wife and I both game, and GM each other in solo games.

Wish I had that problem. I love HERO. I think it's probably the best system for supers. Unfortunately it has a steeeep learning curve.

But ok, if they create a something more drastic to supers, it's possible to create something much better than L5¨R.

Keep the stats, keep the dices, keep the skills, keep the magic/power system, keep the species mechanics, keep the combat system, keep the xp...

What we need is something to understand better the super human powers and options to customize them, just it. I don't see need to change anything else there.

But I believe, like I've said, there are some basic ways to try it inside the pure system. It's more common and easy to understand.

We don't need new dices, new stats...

2 minutes ago, Bellyon said:

But ok, if they create a something more drastic to supers, it's possible to create something much better than L5¨R.

Keep the stats, keep the dices, keep the skills, keep the magic/power system, keep the species mechanics, keep the combat system, keep the xp...

What we need is something to understand better the super human powers and options to customize them, just it. I don't see need to change anything else there.

But I believe, like I've said, there are some basic ways to try it inside the pure system. It's more common and easy to understand.

We don't need new dices, new stats...

Oh god I hope they don't go with new stats or dice for every genre. Why I have such an issue with L5R.

I don't think you need to do much outside of flavor the existing rules. The magic system that I played at GenCon should be easy enough to emulate a good chunk of Super Powers. Additionally, there are bound to be existing and custom talents to make any character feel like a super hero. I think this would be a great community project if they don't have something already in the pipeline.

1 hour ago, TrainedMunkey said:

Wish I had that problem. I love HERO. I think it's probably the best system for supers. Unfortunately it has a steeeep learning curve.

Yeah, 3 of our group started playing Hero in 81 with 1st ed, and 2 others on 3rd ed in 85. We've all been playing it so long, all the issues that get in the way for those not comfortable in the system are long gone.

30 minutes ago, Silverfox13 said:

I don't think you need to do much outside of flavor the existing rules. The magic system that I played at GenCon should be easy enough to emulate a good chunk of Super Powers. Additionally, there are bound to be existing and custom talents to make any character feel like a super hero. I think this would be a great community project if they don't have something already in the pipeline.

Talent trees dedicated to each type of super power could be an interesting way to go. Basically, you make your hero strong, or fast, or agile, or have gadgets, or whatever by taking talents off the appropriate tree, but you can customize HOW that power manifests depending on which talents you take from that tree. So one character with super senses might focus on telescopic vision, seeing infra red and low light; while another character might have precog danger sense and super situational awareness.

18 hours ago, Forgottenlore said:

Talent trees dedicated to each type of super power could be an interesting way to go. Basically, you make your hero strong, or fast, or agile, or have gadgets, or whatever by taking talents off the appropriate tree, but you can customize HOW that power manifests depending on which talents you take from that tree. So one character with super senses might focus on telescopic vision, seeing infra red and low light; while another character might have precog danger sense and super situational awareness.

I thought that the rumor was that they were getting away from talent trees? Yes they would be a good solution for this setting!

22 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

I thought that the rumor was that they were getting away from talent trees? Yes they would be a good solution for this setting!

We don't know. They seem pretty integral to the system in SW though, but as presented there are too complex and integrated to the setting to be made generic.

My personal guess is that maybe they will break talents down into smaller, more tightly thematic, "shrubs". So instead of a single tree with 16 loosely related talents you end up with 4 talent shrubs, each with 4 tightly related talents. Then a given setting can create character classes by selecting 3-5 of the generic shrubs.

Just a guess though.

Regardless, something like that would work well for many types of super powers, and provide a lot of grist for expansion material they can include in supplements.

30 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

My personal guess is that maybe they will break talents down into smaller, more tightly thematic, "shrubs". So instead of a single tree with 16 loosely related talents you end up with 4 talent shrubs, each with 4 tightly related talents.

That's what I strongly hope fore, this works perfectly in Conan 2D20. Small trees branching out, rather than just a lineal chain of talents.

On 10/10/2017 at 11:24 AM, Forgottenlore said:

We don't know. They seem pretty integral to the system in SW though, but as presented there are too complex and integrated to the setting to be made generic.

My personal guess is that maybe they will break talents down into smaller, more tightly thematic, "shrubs". So instead of a single tree with 16 loosely related talents you end up with 4 talent shrubs, each with 4 tightly related talents. Then a given setting can create character classes by selecting 3-5 of the generic shrubs.

Just a guess though.

Regardless, something like that would work well for many types of super powers, and provide a lot of grist for expansion material they can include in supplements.

If this were the case, how would you represent super strength, by levels? At this tier pick up one level super strength. Each level provides a shift rather than adding dice.

Strength is always a tricky power in supers because it’s just soooo generic compared to most. Without looking into things too much and just off the top of my head I would say do strength as a combination of mechanics. Be able to up basic strength as just a regular attribute and include options for one or more strength based "shrubs" that incorporate strength based tricks or stunts (using a car or dumpster as a weapon, hitting the ground to cause a quake, stuff like that).

Talents that add dice (usually boost) are common enough and could be a starting point. Then there can be talents that graduate into bigger bonuses, such as a talent that add advantages or even successes to the result of a roll. Additionally, the setting could have Heroic Abilities that are tailored towards Super Powers, we haven't seen much about them though, so I can't give a great example of how I would create one, but they look like Signature abilities you get at character creation and spend points into as you progress. Lastly, if it doesn't fit into either of those two, a re-tooled spell could emulate a super power stat, something that has more impact but shorter lived, Like a Hurl Something Large spell.

Examples:
Super <Stat> I
When your character makes a roll using <stat> you may add one boost dice.

Super <Stat> II
When your character makes a roll using <stat> you may add one advantage to the results.

Super <Stat> III
When your character makes a roll using <stat> you may downgrade the difficulty by 1.

Super <Stat> IV
When your character makes a roll using <stat> you may add one success to the results.

Heroic Ability: Unmatched Strength
Once per Session, your character may spend one Story Point to activate this ability. Your character gains +2 Brawn until the end of the scene. This increase allows your character to go above the normal characteristic limitations.

Super Power: Hurl Something Large
Super Action: Attack
Additional Effects: Deadly, Empowered, Range
Hurl Something Large is a super attack, and follows all the normal rules for a combat check. Your character chooses a target at short or medium range (but not engaged) and makes an average <super skill?> check. If the check succeeds, the attack deals damage equal to the silhouette of the object + 1 damage per success, with a Critical Rating of 4, and the knockdown quality.

2 hours ago, Silverfox13 said:

Talents that add dice (usually boost) are common enough and could be a starting point. Then there can be talents that graduate into bigger bonuses, such as a talent that add advantages or even successes to the result of a roll. Additionally, the setting could have Heroic Abilities that are tailored towards Super Powers, we haven't seen much about them though, so I can't give a great example of how I would create one, but they look like Signature abilities you get at character creation and spend points into as you progress. Lastly, if it doesn't fit into either of those two, a re-tooled spell could emulate a super power stat, something that has more impact but shorter lived, Like a Hurl Something Large spell.

Examples:
Super <Stat> I
When your character makes a roll using <stat> you may add one boost dice.

Super <Stat> II
When your character makes a roll using <stat> you may add one advantage to the results.

Super <Stat> III
When your character makes a roll using <stat> you may downgrade the difficulty by 1.

Super <Stat> IV
When your character makes a roll using <stat> you may add one success to the results.

Heroic Ability: Unmatched Strength
Once per Session, your character may spend one Story Point to activate this ability. Your character gains +2 Brawn until the end of the scene. This increase allows your character to go above the normal characteristic limitations.

Super Power: Hurl Something Large
Super Action: Attack
Additional Effects: Deadly, Empowered, Range
Hurl Something Large is a super attack, and follows all the normal rules for a combat check. Your character chooses a target at short or medium range (but not engaged) and makes an average <super skill?> check. If the check succeeds, the attack deals damage equal to the silhouette of the object + 1 damage per success, with a Critical Rating of 4, and the knockdown quality.

Super stats are always tricky, why I picked one, but that is an excellent write up.

It has been hard for me to switch my thinking from simulation to narrative. So used to running Champions or Savage Worlds supers.

I would love a good alternative to Champions. I've played it for years, but it's just so cumbersome, and there's some in our group who have trouble with it. Myself included at times. Tracking speed charts and OCV/DCV,..etc.

I'm not sure if Genesys will work or not. I think it might be able to simulate some supers, but not with the total flexibility/do anythingness of Champions. There would have to be some constraints on character creation. I also wonder about simulating super-stats. Rolling 10 green dice for superstrength seems like to much. They'd have to come up with some alternate way to simulate a big stat.

25 minutes ago, Split Light said:

I would love a good alternative to Champions. I've played it for years, but it's just so cumbersome, and there's some in our group who have trouble with it. Myself included at times. Tracking speed charts and OCV/DCV,..etc.

I'm not sure if Genesys will work or not. I think it might be able to simulate some supers, but not with the total flexibility/do anythingness of Champions. There would have to be some constraints on character creation. I also wonder about simulating super-stats. Rolling 10 green dice for superstrength seems like to much. They'd have to come up with some alternate way to simulate a big stat.

The real question is what do you mean by "good" alternative. The granularity of Champions/Hero means that it can accomidate (just about) any concept or ability that you conceive of. Unfortunetly the price paid to maintain balance across scale (from Normal to beyond superheroes) is the use of percentage increases in calculating ability costs; in other words ->MATH<-. The less granular a system becames, the easier it is since powers become increasingly predefined. GURPS suffers from this to a small degree since its abilities are a bit broader and math becomes a bit simpler. The least granular are games like Heroes Unlimited from Paladium Games where every power is predefined and, like spells in DnD, they only (generally) scale in damage or radius as levels change (I solved this by avoiding all level based games).

It seems to me that Genesys may have a difficult time portraying super powers using a talent tree type system. I think that the best way they can approach super powers is with a base power similar to a base force power and then add qualities, similar to weapon qualities and/or mods in SW EtoE. Then each quality added to the base power increases Strain to use if an active power, or has some other balancer if a passive power such as Armor or perhaps each mod/quality is just bought with XP. I am, however, willing to admit that Champions may have biased me against a lack of flexibility other superhero games (and universal systems).