Hi everyone,
First question up front:
Is it my responsibility to tell my opponent all ships/upgrades/squadrons in my fleet or is it their responsibility to ask/look?

Back story:
Today I played a game at the local game store.
I was running Vader, ISD II(Needa TRC), VSD II(Spinal, Disp Cap), 2 Raider Is(OE, Racks) and no fighters.
He was running Ackbar, 3-4 CR90s(all TRC and ECM), 2 GR75(BCC and some titles), some fighters, forget the rest.

We played Minefields mission. I was first player.
I usually announce all my ships, upgrades, squads etc to my opponent prior to deployment but forgot to today as I haven't played in a few months.

At the top of the second round, one of my Raider Is activated and one shotted the CR-90 that Ackbar was on.
Vader re-rolled the OE re-roll to get 10 total damage with external racks and a concentrate fire command.
The entire rest of his fleet was undamaged. My ISD II had 2 facedown cards and one of my Raider Is had 2 facedown cards from hitting mines.
At this point my opponent conceded and left the store.

He said that he didn't know my Raider Is had external racks and that Vader and OE combined for 2 re-rolls of the black dice.
I offered to restart the game completely(we were only at the first activation of turn 2) which he declined and left.

I play friendly games most of the time so I like to make sure both people know what each fleet has and have an enjoyable game.
Obviously next time I will do my best to make sure my opponent knows before deployment.

Would you have done anything differently?
Do you usually announce your fleet composition or have your opponent ask?

Thanks for your input and any advice.

In short, it is "Open Information", because:

Tournament Regulations:


1. Each player places their fleet outside of the 3’ by 6’ play area next to their assigned player edge and define the setup area by placing the setup area markers 1’ from the short edges of the play area.

2. Players reveal all of their ship and squadron components.

It then comes under:

(Faq)
OPEN, DERIVED, AND HIDDEN INFORMATION

Open information is any information about the game, game state, or ships that is available to all players. This includes faceup damage cards, any relevant tokens, the chosen objective, discarded upgrade cards, and any other information continuously available to all players. All players are entitled access to open information and cannot hide open information from an opponent or omit specific details. A player must allow his or her opponent to discover the information themselves if they attempt to do so.

In effect, you are under no compulsion to Remind. You can if you wish, but you don't have to... You cannot actively do a thing to conceal it , and you must allow your opponent to discover the information if they attempt to do so .

If your opponent does not, however, that is on their head. It is open information. It is very similar to trying to say "I don't know what ship that is." while looking at an ISD on the battlefield mat. Its open. You can see.

I contend in this case, with this:

Quote

He said that he didn't know my Raider Is had external racks and that Vader and OE combined for 2 re-rolls of the black dice.
I offered to restart the game completely(we were only at the first activation of turn 2) which he declined and left.

That he was in the wrong. There are such things as learning games, and there are such things as gives and takes. But if one does not know the rules, one must be willing to learn them .

By walking away, not trying again, not attempting to comprehend. He was in the wrong. It can be difficult to understand, and it can be difficult to sympathise, and it can even be difficult to not want to throw things and walk out... But in the end, that is the only way you may learn .

As far as I am concerned, you were as generous as you needed to be... Offering to restart the game was very generous, and would have been the perfect way to not only correct misconceptions, but allow learning and advancement to occur.

Instead, your opponent chose to compound his error into a mistake .

To quote the (now Legends) Thrawn:

"Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake, Ensign? Anyone can make an error, Ensign. But that error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it."

Also.

Everything is better when you feel like Thrawn is giving you the lecture.

21 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Also.

Everything is better when you feel like Thrawn is giving you the lecture.

I'd rather listen to Admiral Ackbar. HE wasn't stabbed by his own troops, you know.

Sounds like your opponent is just a sore loser (and the fact that this was just a casual game is just sad). The information is there for them to access if they want. If they choose not to, that is on them. It's not your responsibility to read off all your cards and their effects to the other person. Do you have to tell them about every possible way those cards can combo together? Of course not. That's part of the game. Sometimes you come across a new combo or tactic you've never seen or did not account for. So you learn, you adjust, you figure out how to deal with it. That's what makes it FUN!

What I usually do, is after laying out the ship cards and upgrades I make the offer to my opponent to come over to check out my fleet, and I ask if I can take a look at theirs. Sometimes, they decline but I try to always make the offer. Or if I have my list with me I'll just offer that to them, but a lot of times I don't bring it along.

Just now, geek19 said:

I'd rather listen to Admiral Ackbar. HE wasn't stabbed by his own troops, you know.

As he goes about Blundering into Traps and all.

Perhaps then, we switch to a canon quote from Thrawn... Who so far, has not been stabbed by his own troops...

“No one is immune to failure. All have tasted the bitterness of defeat and disappointment. A warrior must not dwell on that failure, but must learn from it and continue on.
But not all learn from their errors. ”
― Thrawn



And even:

“A great tactician creates plans.
A good tactician recognizes the soundness of a plan presented on him.
A fair tactician must see the plan succeed before offering approval.
Those with no tactical ability at all may never understand or accept it. Nor will such people understand or accept the tactician.
To those without that ability, those who posses it are a mystery.
And when a mind is too deficient in understanding, the resulting gap is often filled with with resentment.”
― Thrawn

Just now, Drasnighta said:

A gr eat tactician creates plans.
A good tactician recognizes the soundness of a plan presented on him.
A fair tactician must see the plan succeed before offering approval.
Those with no tactical ability at all may never understand or accept it. Nor will such people understand or accept the tactician.
To those without that ability, those who possess it are a mystery.
And when a mind is too deficient in understanding, the resulting gap is often filled with with resentment.”
― Thrawn

So basically you're saying Konstantine was an idiot?

Just now, geek19 said:

So basically you're saying Konstantine was an idiot?

Are you going to disagree?

Just now, Drasnighta said:

Are you going to disagree?

I watched that episode, I don't have nearly enough likes for your comment. While the episode DID make me want to play Sato more, I stand by my general mockery of Konstantine on CGYSO, and he's not even in the faction I play!

Back to the etiquette question, there are two things I like to do to prevent these kinds of problems. Prior to choosing who goes first, my opponent and I briefly review each other's fleets. Then, during placement, I call out everything that each ship is equipped with. I try to make it a little fun, saying it like "The Defiance, under command of Flight Commander Mook, staffed with Fighter Coordination Teams, and equipped with boosted comms. She is General Rieekan's flagship."

4 hours ago, Shadoq said:

Hi everyone,
First question up front:
Is it my responsibility to tell my opponent all ships/upgrades/squadrons in my fleet or is it their responsibility to ask/look?

Back story:
Today I played a game at the local game store.
I was running Vader, ISD II(Needa TRC), VSD II(Spinal, Disp Cap), 2 Raider Is(OE, Racks) and no fighters.
He was running Ackbar, 3-4 CR90s(all TRC and ECM), 2 GR75(BCC and some titles), some fighters, forget the rest.

We played Minefields mission. I was first player.
I usually announce all my ships, upgrades, squads etc to my opponent prior to deployment but forgot to today as I haven't played in a few months.

At the top of the second round, one of my Raider Is activated and one shotted the CR-90 that Ackbar was on.
Vader re-rolled the OE re-roll to get 10 total damage with external racks and a concentrate fire command.
The entire rest of his fleet was undamaged. My ISD II had 2 facedown cards and one of my Raider Is had 2 facedown cards from hitting mines.
At this point my opponent conceded and left the store.

He said that he didn't know my Raider Is had external racks and that Vader and OE combined for 2 re-rolls of the black dice.
I offered to restart the game completely(we were only at the first activation of turn 2) which he declined and left.

I play friendly games most of the time so I like to make sure both people know what each fleet has and have an enjoyable game.
Obviously next time I will do my best to make sure my opponent knows before deployment.

Would you have done anything differently?
Do you usually announce your fleet composition or have your opponent ask?

Thanks for your input and any advice.

Either you give your fleet list to your opponent so he can read it - on paper or online. Or he can walk over to your side and look at your cards.

If he didn't bother to assess the opposition he already lost before the game began.

It's unfortunate that he got upset, but really, what did the guy expect?

Thanks for the advice and input everyone.
I like the Thrawn quotes.
I've never watched Rebels. I'll have to see if I can get it somehow now...

Going forward I'll try to be more overt about providing my opponent a shot at looking at my fleet first.

In terms of "etiquette"... I usually make a point of offering my opponent a chance to look at my fleet right at the start and ask any questions.

For tourneys I have a printed fleet list I usually offer as well - that way there can be no mistakes if when moving tables etc a card has snuck under a ship card or something.

Unless they asked to look at your list and you said no or had hidden the card in question, then it's their own **** fault for not making the herculean effort needed to move their *** around the table to check out your fleet.

Also

6 hours ago, Shadoq said:

He said that he didn't know my Raider Is had external racks and that Vader and OE combined for 2 re-rolls of the black dice.

So even if you had banged pots and pans and flashed alarms at him that you had OE on the Raiders, he still wouldn't have known that that gives you double re-rolls with Vader. His lack of knowledge of your fleet was rendered completely moot by his own ignorance of the game mechanics.

He clearly was just embarrassed by his mistake of letting his flagship get killed off the bat and tried to shift the blame to someone else instead of just taking his licks and playing it out. I've seen lots of Magic: The Gathering players do this when I was a judge, they miss an obvious on-board trick from their opponent that was staring them in the face the whole time and instead of playing through it and adjusting their play they angrily scoop up their cards and leave while making a bunch of excuses. Sad to hear there is someone in your Armada community acting like that. Hopefully he was just having a bad or something and there is an apology forthcoming.

You forgot to give him a detailed rundown of your fleet, but you didn't explicitly decide not to, and he had every opportunity to ask you to do so, or to look for himself. Even if you had given him the rundown, you probably wouldn't have gone into the detail of being able to combine Vader and OE; you're under no requirement to ensure that your opponent knows the rules. And let's not forget, this was a casual game, and should be casual in the attitude you play with.

I always start every game by asking the opponent to run through their fleet, which prompts them to ask me the same. But simply forgetting to do so is far from bad etiquette; even in forgetting, you didn't break the rules, and you were more than generous when the misunderstanding arose.

This is a guy simply being petulant. It's a big loss, and it would be a struggle to come back from that, but there was no reason he couldn't play out the game, or accept the generous offer of a rematch. I've been in similar situations when I was still quite new to the game; in one, my significantly more experienced opponent pulled off a series of tricks to knock out multiple ships in round 2 in a brutal fashion. At the time, we laughed about it, set up the board again, and replayed with my new knowledge; it was more fun for him to play someone who wasn't making it easy for him, and far more fun for me to have another crack at it. You gave him the chance to take the high road, and he chose the low.

I hope you got another game; the worst thing would be if he took his bat and ball home and left you deprived of an enjoyable afternoon!

So I have a question... are players expected to read out loud their entire list to their opponent? I sometimes play a Rieekan fleet that has 8 unique squadrons and at least 20 upgrades spread across 5 ships, and it would probably take me 2 minutes to read every single card name in my list and another 5-10 minutes to explain what everything actually does. I generally just tell my opponent that my entire list is spread out on my side of the table and they are welcome to come over and look at it, and I personally prefer to go over and look at my opponents cards and list so that I don't get screwed by them forgetting to tell me about a key card in their list.

3 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

So I have a question... are players expected to read out loud their entire list to their opponent? I sometimes play a Rieekan fleet that has 8 unique squadrons and at least 20 upgrades spread across 5 ships, and it would probably take me 2 minutes to read every single card name in my list and another 5-10 minutes to explain what everything actually does. I generally just tell my opponent that my entire list is spread out on my side of the table and they are welcome to come over and look at it, and I personally prefer to go over and look at my opponents cards and list so that I don't get screwed by them forgetting to tell me about a key card in their list.

I have played many tournaments. I make a point of walking round and reviewing their fleet before. I also tend to do this during as I forget what has what. They are welcome to do the same at any point but if they don’t that is their fault not mine. Think the OP had a very unique situation and a poor loser.

The amount of times something like that has happened to me or vice verse, it does not mean you loose the game ....

17 minutes ago, ceejlekabeejle said:

Even if you had given him the rundown, you probably wouldn't have gone into the detail of being able to combine Vader and OE.
Very likely. I usually just go over my fleet composition and upgrades and ask if they have any questions. If they ask though I make a point of explaining the mechanics as much as needed.

I hope you got another game; the worst thing would be if he took his bat and ball home and left you deprived of an enjoyable afternoon!
Sadly, nope. My "meta" if you can call it that is tiny. It is me and no more than 2-3 others. Most of whom can only get out once a month or less.

Thanks again for the advice everyone.
I haven't gamed in a while and wanted to make sure I handled the situation appropriately.
Most Armada players I've met are extremely gracious.

Hopefully my opponent was just having a bad day and our next game works out better.

18 minutes ago, Shadoq said:

Even if you had given him the rundown, you probably wouldn't have gone into the detail of being able to combine Vader and OE.
Very likely. I usually just go over my fleet composition and upgrades and ask if they have any questions. If they ask though I make a point of explaining the mechanics as much as needed.

^ The above is exactly what I do. I run through it, and if they have any queries regarding specific cards or combos, I more than happily explain them. Not knowing the OE and Vader stacked is an easy mistake to make (to be honest, it's a combo that I hadn't thought of until you mentioned it - very nice!), but the reason you play casual games is to learn. That being the case, you're going to get caught out every once in a while - it's a game based on trying to outsmart your opponent! ^

I hope you got another game; the worst thing would be if he took his bat and ball home and left you deprived of an enjoyable afternoon!
Sadly, nope. My "meta" if you can call it that is tiny. It is me and no more than 2-3 others. Most of whom can only get out once a month or less.

^ I am really sorry to hear this. No-one should have their Sunday game ruined by their opponent being unnecessarily petulant. Given that it's a small group, you'd think he'd be keen to not be seen as unsporting and not a lot of fun to play.

You're right, this kind of behaviour is quite unusual amongst Armada players. It is not always easy to take a loss, but most of us at least try to be gracious, and don't to take it out on the opponent. I for one have only seen one truly "unsporting" player, and even then, he was playing by the book, if not in the spirit of the game. Hopefully he was just having a rough day/weekend/week, and will either apologise, or if not, at least not repeat his behaviour in future!

43 minutes ago, Shadoq said:

Thanks again for the advice everyone.
I haven't gamed in a while and wanted to make sure I handled the situation appropriately.
Most Armada players I've met are extremely gracious.

Hopefully my opponent was just having a bad day and our next game works out better.

I would add that he didn't just miss one little upgrade, he failed to understand a main part of your list: expendable raiders with ER and double rerolls.

@Tvboy

As stated, you show fleets by setting components out. You do not have to / are not required to verbally announce... only show.

The only ettiquette misstep if I'd even call it that was not offering to go over your fleet. Usually once I set out all my cards, I'll ask if my opponent wants to see any upgrades or has any questions. I have a few promo cards so sometimes they don't recognize the promo versions of stuff.

If the player declines, it's on them.

The last thing I've been doing for years is make sure I have the reference for rules people tend to call BS on. Things like double re-rolls come up often that I'd keep a copy of the clarification that OE and Vader (if there is a FAQ on that) available so you don't get caught in a 30 minute argument about it.

You didn't do anything wrong and the player technically did have the option to forfeit the game. You can't force someone to play. Is he a sore loser? Yes. Do I blame him for not wanting to play out 5 more turns after losing his admiral? Not really.

Who goes through all of the trouble to set up an armada game and then rage quits? Especially with the offer to start over?

Maybe it's just because I've only had a chance to play one game in the past month, but it makes me a little angry to hear about someone wasting the opportunity to play like that. Some of us would love to have that kind of time.

Invite them to look at your cards once they are laid out, that is the beginning and end of your responsibility in this matter.

The real mistake is running ECM on all your CR90s. Grab IO and your Ackbar TRC hit a lot harder.

Honestly, it's dumb to throw a fit when you lose stuff and wasn't expecting to. A CR90 is 1 shot with 7 damage which is easy with a standard OE Raider on a double arc. If you don't know which ships can spike damage, you're going to lose a lot of stuff to careless mistakes. I wouldn't worry about it.