I'm pretty sure this works, but can I use Court Mask's action to return it to my hand while its attached character is dishonored.

Also, if my opponent sends two characters to a province with Shameful Display, one honored and one not, can I choose the honored one to honor and dishonor the other?

Can't take any action that doesn't change board state, and can't pay a cost if it doesn't change the board state. So you can't honor an honored character, and if the dishonor is part of Court Mask cost, you can't return it to your hand. Also, I believe that all parts of an action have to change board state. So, if Court Mask returns to your hand and dishonors the character, but character is already dishonored, then you can't activate the ability because return to hand would change board state, but dishonor won't.

1. Yes. Dishonouring is not part of the cost, you do as much of the effect as you can, as per the rules.

2. Yes. As long as the costs are paid (2 targets) and the effect has the potential to change the game state (it does), then you can choose whichever way you like, regardless of status.

41 minutes ago, Shosuro Onigatsu said:

Can't take any action that doesn't change board state

It does change the board state because Court Mask goes back to hand.

42 minutes ago, Shosuro Onigatsu said:

and can't pay a cost if it doesn't change the board state

It isn't a cost.

Court mask - Action: Return this attachment to your hand and dishonor attached character.

The action has two parts, can you initiate an action even if you cant fulfill it entirely? Same for shameful display.

1 minute ago, PsiLAN said:

Court mask - Action: Return this attachment to your hand and dishonor attached character.

The action has two parts, can you initiate an action even if you cant fulfill it entirely? Same for shameful display.

As long as any costs or requirements are met, yes. You resolve as much of the effect as possible. Court Mask has no cost/ play requirement. For shameful display, it can only be played during a conflict at the province, and there must be 2 participating characters that are valid targets for some part of the effect. Then resolve as much of the effect as possible.

2 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

As long as any costs or requirements are met, yes. You resolve as much of the effect as possible. Court Mask has no cost/ play requirement. For shameful display, it can only be played during a conflict at the province, and there must be 2 participating characters that are valid targets for some part of the effect. Then resolve as much of the effect as possible.

So i may choose one of my characters already in the conflict to honor him even if he is already honored as long as I dishonor another.

Same for dishonoring an already dishonored opponent in order to honor one of my characters.

Feels counter-intuitive for me :S

Mmm... per the rule:

Quote

For all selections, an option that has the potential to change the game state must be chosen, if able.

I need at least 2 targets for Shameful display, and at least one of them must be able to be honored of dishonored.

More on this. If there are 3 available targets, and my only character in the conflict if honored, i have to choose both characters of my opponent. One to be honored and the other to be dishonored (or i could dishonor my own character...)

Per RR-P5-Cost: "An ability cannot initiate (and therefore its costs cannot be paid) if its effect on its own does not have the potential to change the game state"

Dunno why they decided to put that in Cost instead of Ability or Effects.

Per RR-P6-Effects: "Once an ability is initiated, players must resolve as much of each aspect of its effect as they are able, unless the effect uses the word 'may.'" "If an ability instructs a player to select among multiple effects, an effect that has the potential to change the game state must be selected."

My initial statement on Court Mask was completely wrong.

For Shameful display, the targeting requirement is 2 participating characters, but you can't initiate it unless at least on of them can be honored or dishonored. Also, you can't chose to dishonor the dishonored target and honor the honored target, because the effect no longer has the potential to change the game state. My reading of the rule is you pick your targets, and if one target is already honored, and the other one isn't dishonored, then it doesn't matter if there are other valid targets. You are resolving "as much of each aspect of its effect as [you] are able." However, if I were a judge at an event, I would go with, "an effect that has the potential to change the game state must be selected," and rule that you have to pick a different target. As a Scorpion that runs this province, I will try and avoid this ruling with my quick rules referencing to establish credibility.

A different thread pointed out that selection requires you select a target that can change board state for every time you select something. Not giving the reference, cause I don't wanna.

4 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

2. Yes. As long as the costs are paid (2 targets) and the effect has the potential to change the game state (it does), then you can choose whichever way you like, regardless of status.

This is not correct, Nate French has a ruling on this.

Just now, LuceLineGames said:

This is not correct, Nate French has a ruling on this.

He can put it in a FAQ, then. No-one should be expected to play based on what someone may have said rather than what the rules say.

Quote

This “resolve as much as you are able” rule basically means that you cannot optionally pick and choose which parts of an effect resolve.
So, you could choose to dishonor the ordinary character, and let the honor effect fail to resolve in your example. Once these choices are made, you resolve as much of the effect as you are able.
If you had one honored and one dishonored character, you would have to choose in such a way that the resolution of the ability changes the game state. (i.e., you couldn’t choose to both honor the honored and dishonor the dishonored, as then the effect would have no potential to change the game state) (Nate French, 14/8/17).

31 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

He can put it in a FAQ, then. No-one should be expected to play based on what someone may have said rather than what the rules say.

It's in the rules, look how many times 'potential to change the game state' is mentioned. I've included the quote above from Nate. This is clearly how it will be ruled in FFG tournaments. If you could at least be transparent, and say you disagree with the current ruling, instead of confusing those who come here asking how a card works. That would be much appreciated

On 10/7/2017 at 10:59 PM, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

I'm pretty sure this works, but can I use Court Mask's action to return it to my hand while its attached character is dishonored.

Yes you can. Because there is no choice involved in the target, you resolve as much of the effect as you are able.

Just as an example, if the card read 'choose a character - dishonor that character and return this card to your hand', you would have to choose a character that has an honored or no status to have an eligible target.

2 hours ago, LuceLineGames said:

Just as an example, if the card read 'choose a character - dishonor that character and return this card to your hand', you would have to choose a character that has an honored or no status to have an eligible target.

Hypothetically , that would only be if there is at least 1 non-dishonored character in play under selection rules. It does not say "chose a character that is not dishonored -" If all characters are dishonored, you could still select one and as much of the effect that can resolve will. Still not gonna reference the rules on selection, cause I can totally get away with intentionally picking 1 invalid target with my fancy lawyering.

@Khift

Its your favorite subject!

15 minutes ago, Shosuro Onigatsu said:

Hypothetically , that would only be if there is at least 1 non-dishonored character in play under selection rules. It does not say "chose a character that is not dishonored -" If all characters are dishonored, you could still select one and as much of the effect that can resolve will. Still not gonna reference the rules on selection, cause I can totally get away with intentionally picking 1 invalid target with my fancy lawyering.

This is incorrect.

From the Target entry we have: " A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution of that ability's effect could not affect the target at all.". And from the Initiating Abilities entry we have the first step in initiating an ability: "1. Check play restrictions and verify the existence of eligible targets: can the card be played, or the ability initiated, at this time? If the play restrictions are not met, or there are no eligible targets for the ability, the process cannot proceed."

A dishonored character isn't an eligible target for this hypothetical ability, and without an eligible target you can't get past step 1 to activate the ability.

33 minutes ago, Shosuro Onigatsu said:

Hypothetically , that would only be if there is at least 1 non-dishonored character in play under selection rules. It does not say "chose a character that is not dishonored -" If all characters are dishonored, you could still select one and as much of the effect that can resolve will. Still not gonna reference the rules on selection, cause I can totally get away with intentionally picking 1 invalid target with my fancy lawyering.

Quote

A card is not an eligible target for an ability if the resolution
of that ability’s effect could not affect the target at all. (For
example, a bowed character cannot be chosen as the target
for an ability that reads “Action: Choose a character —
bow that character.”)

Quote

Check play restrictions and verify the existence of eligible
targets: can the card be played, or the ability initiated, at
this time? If the play restrictions are not met, or there are no
eligible targets for the ability, the process cannot proceed.

In our hypothetical situation, you would not be able to activate the ability without an eligible target.

Get 'em next time Grinder!

Edit: @GoblinGuide looks like you beat me to it.

I did get a reply from Nate as well, stating that both answers were yes. Court Mask is an effect, not a cost and can be used while dishonored, and Shameful Display is valid as long as at least one of the targets will change status.

Using Shameful Display with three characters present, one honored, two not, and trying to honor the honored and dishonor one of the others seems iffy though. Feels a bit gamey.

I originally assumed you couldn't return court mask on an already dishonored character, but after rereading and checking the rules reference, I do not see why not.

1. It does not appear the dishonoring is a cost to the action (or you definitely couldn't do it)
2. Further, it's an effect , with two parts
   1. return court mask to your hand
   2. dishonor the character

So, under effects (page 6 of rules reference): Once an ability is initiated, players must resolve as much of each aspect of its effect as they are able, unless the effect uses the word “may.”

So I do as much as I can:

1. I return court mask to my hand
2. I attempt to dishonor the character it was on

I did change the game state (returning the card to my hand).

Additional relevant sources:

Triggered Abilities (pgs 16-17)

• Triggered abilities are written in a "triggering condition (and/or) cost (and/or) targeting requirements – effect" template. Ability text before the dash consists of triggering conditions (and/or) costs (and/or) targeting requirements. Ability text after the dash consists of effects. and may sometimes include targeting requirements that come into play as the effect is being resolved.
• If a triggered ability has no dash, the ability has no pre-dash content, and the entirety of the ability is considered an effect.
• A triggered ability can only be initiated if its effect has the potential to change the game state on its own. This potential is assessed without taking into account the consequences of the cost payment or any other ability interactions.

58 minutes ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

Using Shameful Display with three characters present, one honored, two not, and trying to honor the honored and dishonor one of the others seems iffy though. Feels a bit gamey.

In this case, acording to:

Quote

For all selections, an option that has the potential to change the game state must be chosen, if able.

You should chose those characters that change the game status. That is, both without status tokens.

1 minute ago, PsiLAN said:

In this case, acording to:

You should chose those characters that change the game status. That is, both without status tokens.

1) Choose one honored and one dishonored - honor the honored and dishonor the dishonored: Not Legal

2) Choose one honored and one dishonored - honor the dishonored, and dishonor the honored: Legal

3) Choose one honored and one no status - dishonor the no status, leaving the honored failing to resolve: Legal

4) Choose one dishonored and one no status - honor the no status, leaving the dishonored failing to resolve: Legal

5) Choose two no status: Legal

6) Choose two honored - dishonor one, leaving the honored failing to resolve: Legal (when choosing the targets, each would be eligible as there is potential for each individually to be changed)

7) Choose two dishonored - honor one, leaving the dishonored failing to resolve: Legal (when choosing the targets, each would be eligible as there is potential for each individually to be changed)

So the only illegal move would be to try and honor an honored and dishonor a dishonored.

Choosing a target that would not change its status should be avoided when a target that would change its status is available.

I have to wonder if FFG ever plays the games they make.

56 minutes ago, PsiLAN said:

Choosing a target that would not change its status should be avoided when a target that would change its status is available. Like this

The thing is, at the time you choose targets the Honored character and either normal characters are all eligible targets because they can all be dishonored. The choice of which to honor and which to dishonor doesn't happen until targets are locked in during resolution, so choosing an Honored and normal and then dishonoring the normal is perfectly fine no matter how many characters are in the conflict.

You can actually never choose a target if the effect wouldn't affect them, but fortunately the potential effect for Shameful is (honor or dishonor) so the only way for a target to be illegal would be if they could become neither honored nor dishonored.

3 hours ago, GoblinGuide said:

You can actually never choose a target if the effect wouldn't affect them, but fortunately the potential effect for Shameful is (honor or dishonor) so the only way for a target to be illegal would be if they could become neither honored nor dishonored.

Careful. They don't like it when you use the actual rules they wrote.