11 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

I was stating my opinion which is just as valid to me as yours is to you. so the grow up commit is unnecessary. It actually shows how immature you are since you have to start of your argument by insulting me.

I myself have used my D10s in multiple games so I don't see this as a defense for custom dice.

As for price I can buy a pack of D10s for between $5-8. Where FFG dice pack tend to be in the $10-15

Immature? You're discounting an entire game as if custom dice is somehow going to break it. This isn't starwars where you're going to need to buy 7 different kinds of dice. Even just 4 of each will hold for most games. Conversion charts aren't difficult either if you must count your pennies AND roll dice... Or adapt to modern life. Just because something has been one way for 20 or 50 or 100 years doesn't mean that is how it will always be, or that there is no room to innovate.

I'm skeptical about these dice for mechanical reasons. I'm concerned the play value may not be as great. Complaining about the cost though? When you're buying just 5 of 2 types of dice its a stretch. SW required you to buy a lot of dice, so I can see people complaining about it being a cash grab - but at a point you have to quit complaining and do something.

1) It costs too much -> Use a free app

2) I want to use the dice I already have -> Use a conversion chart

3) I like rolling dice, but don't want to use conversion charts -> Print stickers

4) I want to bag on a company for trying to innovate RPGs and refuse to take any consolation or substitution and just want to whine forever -> Just play one of the existing 4 editions which are already available, and can be considered complete systems. Roll all of your existing dice you want with your existing books. Don't worry - nothing new will happen to any of these systems.

4 minutes ago, Jennkryst said:

I'm pretty sure Torg's take on ninjas is pulled directly from the L5R lore, unless we want to change how Shugenja work to a more real-world model.

Propably Just can't resist when reading romantisized modern misconceptions about shinobi

Did anybody recorded a session of the beta adventure so I can take a peek how this actually plays? I am still "sour" that they did not use Genesys but I am still curious and willing to be convinced.

2 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Immature? You're discounting an entire game as if custom dice is somehow going to break it. This isn't starwars where you're going to need to buy 7 different kinds of dice. Even just 4 of each will hold for most games. Conversion charts aren't difficult either if you must count your pennies AND roll dice... Or adapt to modern life. Just because something has been one way for 20 or 50 or 100 years doesn't mean that is how it will always be, or that there is no room to innovate.

I'm skeptical about these dice for mechanical reasons. I'm concerned the play value may not be as great. Complaining about the cost though? When you're buying just 5 of 2 types of dice its a stretch. SW required you to buy a lot of dice, so I can see people complaining about it being a cash grab - but at a point you have to quit complaining and do something.

1) It costs too much -> Use a free app

2) I want to use the dice I already have -> Use a conversion chart

3) I like rolling dice, but don't want to use conversion charts -> Print stickers

4) I want to bag on a company for trying to innovate RPGs and refuse to take any consolation or substitution and just want to whine forever -> Just play one of the existing 4 editions which are already available, and can be considered complete systems. Roll all of your existing dice you want with your existing books. Don't worry - nothing new will happen to any of these systems.

Quote

The point is that most (Not all) RPG on the market use standard dice. And that most RPGers have at least one or two standard set of die just laying around. And even if you don't you can buy them for cheap and they will be useful for about 90+% of the games out there. So when you pick up a new game you can just pull out your dice and play. Overall its not that there are custom die it FFG attempts to get more money out of us by gearing their games to require these dice. This is a pattern that they have shown with most of the IPs that they pick-up so it starts to get on some players nerves. Now just to clarify, I'm not all that upset about them is this game as they seem to work OK (Still needs lot of work). Another issues is with previous games the dice gave a success or failure, but the custom dice try to direct the narrative of what happened which is the job of the GM or player not the dice.

This is what happens when you do not read the whole paragraph.

I was not attacking FFG for this one game. I was taking about the pattern that they had show. And their need to turn every game into a custom dice game.

FFG has in no way invented narrative game. There are many Narrative games out there which do it much better then FFG has ever done.

As for the dice issues I was pointing out why some people don't like the idea of custom dice. or using dice rollers. I don't believe that I stated anywhere in my post that if you like them you where wrong or an idiot. So I can't see why you had taken such offence to my post to open with an insult.

Let's keep our attacks to ideas and not people.

I really want to know what the difference is between a book that will never be read again and a set of dice that won't be rolled.

I also would like to hear some examples of systems where three separate elements are determined by a single dice.

Then finally you raise an argument about the GM/Players deciding how the narrative evolves, but that's still dictated by the results of the dice! This type of system just gives depth to the dice results, it's still up to the players to get creative.

took a while to post this so it's possible it's missed something from the last hour.

2 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Let's keep our attacks to ideas and not people.

I really want to know what the difference is between a book that will never be read again and a set of dice that won't be rolled.

I also would like to hear some examples of systems where three separate elements are determined by a single dice.

Then finally you raise an argument about the GM/Players deciding how the narrative evolves, but that's still dictated by the results of the dice! This type of system just gives depth to the dice results, it's still up to the players to get creative.

took a while to post this so it's possible it's missed something from the last hour.

Because you basically just say what I want to but nicer

5 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

I really want to know what the difference is between a book that will never be read again and a set of dice that won't be rolled.

I wouldn’t buy an rule set to not use and just sit around. I would only buy it if I had a solid chance to play (had convinced others to try it, was joining a group). That was my point of people’s percieved value, the actual monetary value of it doesn’t matter so much as how much value people perceive it to have

1 minute ago, Richardbuxton said:

Let's keep our attacks to ideas and not people.

I really want to know what the difference is between a book that will never be read again and a set of dice that won't be rolled.

I also would like to hear some examples of systems where three separate elements are determined by a single dice.

Then finally you raise an argument about the GM/Players deciding how the narrative evolves, but that's still dictated by the results of the dice! This type of system just gives depth to the dice results, it's still up to the players to get creative.

took a while to post this so it's possible it's missed something from the last hour.

Look up 7th Sea RPG by John Wick. every scene only has one dice roll that allows you to determines you actions for the entire scene. using a modified R&K system.

15 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Look up 7th Sea RPG by John Wick. every scene only has one dice roll that allows you to determines you actions for the entire scene. using a modified R&K system.

I tried playing the latest 7th Sea for a few months and found it a hot mess. I suspect my philosophy of what makes for a good game (risk vs reward, unexpected twists, dice creating complications) and John Wick's philosophy (PCs should never fail unless they want to, all PCs are invincible superheroes irrespective of setting) fundamentally clash and one of the places they clash is in the dice resolution mechanic of that game. I wish he used a different word for dice sets rather than Raises but my big issue is that it is nearly mathematically impossible for a starting character to fail a dice roll to attempt anything.

Negotiating the Opportunities and Complications *before* the dice roll also became a real chore that ground the game to a halt every time dice were rolled and put way too much mental strain on the GM.
That and dueling techniques were broken as all get out but that is a byproduct of the dice system and not the system itself.

Just now, DarkHorse said:

I tried playing the latest 7th Sea for a few months and found it a hot mess. I suspect my philosophy of what makes for a good game (risk vs reward, unexpected twists, dice creating complications) and John Wick's philosophy (PCs should never fail unless they want to, all PCs are invincible superheroes irrespective of setting) fundamentally clash and one of the places they clash is in the dice resolution mechanic of that game. I wish he used a different word for dice sets rather than Raises but my big issue is that it is nearly mathematically impossible for a starting character to fail a dice roll to attempt anything.

Negotiating the Opportunities and Complications *before* the dice roll also became a real chore that ground the game to a halt every time dice were rolled and put way too much mental strain on the GM.
That and dueling techniques were broken as all get out but that is a byproduct of the dice system and not the system itself.

Never said I like the game. Was just listing a game that resoled three or more separate elements in one roll like Richardbuxton asked.

8 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Never said I like the game. Was just listing a game that resoled three or more separate elements in one roll like Richardbuxton asked.

I didn't read it that you did, I was just giving my feedback on the system since I have recently tried it out.

I haven't ever looked into 7th sea 2nd. I understand you roll (lots?) dice and group them into 10's. But what are the three elements? I only see Success/Fail and Raises.

These new L5R dice measure the third axis of Strife, which is essentially a measure of how much effort your character is putting in. They also do this with a very quick to read and evaluate system where only addition is required and generally maxes out at 5.

Just now, Richardbuxton said:

I haven't ever looked into 7th sea 2nd. I understand you roll (lots?) dice and group them into 10's. But what are the three elements? I only see Success/Fail and Raises.

You roll then form sets of 10 called Raises. You then use your number of Raises as a resource to purchase successes, purchase opportunities and to buy off complications.

9 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

You roll then form sets of 10 called Raises. You then use your number of Raises as a resource to purchase successes, purchase opportunities and to buy off complications.

Seems quite cool from a simple mechanics perspective. I really like systems that offer players a tough choice for their actions, a cost to doing better.

1 hour ago, Toku Askanidog said:

I wouldn’t buy an rule set to not use and just sit around. I would only buy it if I had a solid chance to play (had convinced others to try it, was joining a group). That was my point of people’s percieved value, the actual monetary value of it doesn’t matter so much as how much value people perceive it to have

Ok so a vague understanding of the rules are important, but there's still the chance that once you tried them they didn't fit your group you would put the book down and move onto something else. But you don't seem to be giving dice the same treatment. With seemingly (just from what you have mentioned) zero experience rolling a symbol dice in an RPG you have dismissed WFRP, SW, and Genesys. This system seems to have perked your interest at least a little, but it has less perceived value because of a "money grab"

I'm sure your sick of me saying this so it's hidden.

10 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Ok so a vague understanding of the rules are important, but there's still the chance that once you tried them they didn't fit your group you would put the book down and move onto something else. But you don't seem to be giving dice the same treatment. With seemingly (just from what you have mentioned) zero experience rolling a symbol dice in an RPG you have dismissed WFRP, SW, and Genesys.

And my experience trying to use FFGs dice in Imperial Assault.

But, yes. With a disabled wife, 2 teenage girls, a pre teen boy and a mortgage, hobby money is scarce and planned in advance of spending. I am sure I am not the only one trying to get their hobby in on a tight budget either. Any extra costs on top of an system which I may not use as much as I like is a negative. If there is a new system and I have tons of dice I can use easily already, I am more likely to pick up. Because for me the risk/reward for my money is closer balanced.

So while the actual cost of the additional dice may not be a lot in actual dollar terms (although in Australia it is pretty much always more than elsewhere), it does detract from the value I see when planning my purchases.

And yes starter boxes are better value, but again when you play with either uni students or others with limited income the extra cost sets a barrier. I have asked some locals new to RPGs to try it out and their first question was what is the cost?

This system has only piqued my interest because it is L5R and an open free beta, had it been otherwise I would look at it in store and most likely again pass it over.

I guess my point is, not everyone knows how others perceive the value of things. There is no right or wrong in how we choose to see value. So to tell people to stop whinging over $10 here or $5 there doesn’t add anything to the discussion. (Not that you are but you get what I mean I hope)

Telling a company during a beta “this is a big turn off” is kind of why betas are for right? If they get enough feedback they have to make a decision on costs already sunk in development vs potential uptake. But it needs to be constructive too.

I don’t begrudge those who like the “narrative dice” in general or those who don’t have to count their pennies as much as others. But if a company asks for feedback people should give that feedback honestly and constructively (which I hope I am doing)

9 minutes ago, Toku Askanidog said:

With a disabled wife, 2 teenage girls, a pre teen boy and a mortgage, hobby money is scarce and planned in advance of spending

That's all you need to say, really, I get it. With 3 kids, 2 small business and a mortgage ourselves I literally only buy games I know I will play, which has been solely FFG Star Wars RPG until we got a Switch earlier this year.

In maybe another week or two there'll be a knock off dice app. Free beta, free dice. Not that you can't just use the standard 12s and 6s and the conversion chart they provide just to be nice to people who hate/can't afford their dice.

People keep saying it's a turn off and ffg needs to know! But they've had basically no issue selling previous custom dice based games, to the point they're making a flagship rp using it.

14 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

That's all you need to say, really, I get it. With 3 kids, 2 small business and a mortgage ourselves I literally only buy games I know I will play, which has been solely FFG Star Wars RPG until we got a Switch earlier this year.

Three kids as well and paying for two flats I also try to figure out if I will play a game, before I buy. This is why I was disappointed that Genesys is not used for L5R. You still had to purchase special dice but at least only once and not for each setting. I had to decide between L5R and Genesys and went for Genesys. I still have my D20 Rokugan stuff and will use Genesys to play this setting.

8 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

In maybe another week or two there'll be a knock off dice app. Free beta, free dice. Not that you can't just use the standard 12s and 6s and the conversion chart they provide just to be nice to people who hate/can't afford their dice.

People keep saying it's a turn off and ffg needs to know! But they've had basically no issue selling previous custom dice based games, to the point they're making a flagship rp using it.

Right but you only get that information or knowledge if you have already been watching and checking it out. You don’t get it from scanning the shelves at a store or looking at a beginner box.

I get what you are saying, but having to check charts for every roll, taking dice I use for other things and making them single use with stickers, or relying on fans to create a free app, aren’t answers to the initial put off.

And I am not saying I won’t play this game or won’t buy it and the dice, if it is good enough I will buy multiple dice sets so I can get others to start up more easily.

But it IS a consideration, and I am sure FFG wants to make as much money as possible from the licence, which means the tricky act of keeping on enough legacy players and bringing in enough new blood.

That's why they kept roll and keep, and schools, techniques, advantage and disadvantage, void points, duels. They've kept numerous call backs to previous editions that they didn't have to, exactly to provide familiarity to old players.

And generally speaking they put the dice near the books, or tell you the game needs special dice at a shop. They don't hide that it requires custom dice anywhere, and they provided an app as well, the fan one is just free.

You shouldn't read the charts, you should get the dice. But if you can't afford both you can make do with just the book and the chart until you can.

37 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

In maybe another week or two there'll be a knock off dice app. Free beta, free dice. Not that you can't just use the standard 12s and 6s and the conversion chart they provide just to be nice to people who hate/can't afford their dice.

People keep saying it's a turn off and ffg needs to know! But they've had basically no issue selling previous custom dice based games , to the point they're making a flagship rp using it.

You may want to fact check this before you say.

First, the Star Wars IP has the advantage that you could make Star Wars toilet paper and it would probably sell.

Second, Star Wars what not the first custom dice game that FFG launched. Warhammer fantasy was and it did pretty bad.

IMHO, judging how well the Narrative dice system will do based on Star War success is a bad idea. At least with Star Wars if people don't like the game there is a chance they will still buy it because its Star Wars. Like one of my roommates how hates the game but still has the book as part of his collection.

4 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

That's why they kept roll and keep, and schools, techniques, advantage and disadvantage, void points, duels. They've kept numerous call backs to previous editions that they didn't have to, exactly to provide familiarity to old players.

And generally speaking they put the dice near the books, or tell you the game needs special dice at a shop. They don't hide that it requires custom dice anywhere, and they provided an app as well, the fan one is just free.

You shouldn't read the charts, you should get the dice. But if you can't afford both you can make do with just the book and the chart until you can.

Or you could play 4th ed.

Right now I'm on the fence about the 5th ed. It has some good points some bad point. Overall it needs a lot of work before I would buy it. There are just to many issues with it as is. But we will see if they are committed to using the beta to making a outstanding game or just to pay lip-service to the fans. Time will tell.

I didn’t say they hid anything. But requiring a supplemental purchase on top of the rules, is part of what gets weighed in my decision making process.

And I agree that is why they have kept r&k and so forth, and I really appreciate it. As mechanics of games plays a big part in my enjoyment of them. D20 systems to me all feel like D&D to me just re-skinned. R&K feels like L5R, exploding d6 for me is Star Wars.

I am just saying that people will perceive an items value or worth differently and it is valid feedback as it helps FFG have a broader snapshot of what its customers and potential customers want and are looking for, or potential hurdles they may have. Defending the use of the dice at this stage, I think, should really come down to “I think they are cool and work well, I would recommend giving the system a go and see if it is still a put off”

What they could have done. Roll a number of d10's equal to ring+skill, 9's and 10's explode, for each X number of successes past the TN you get gives you 1 opportunity. If the action is in opposition of your Giri gain 2 strife, if in opposition of your Ninjo gain 1 strife. There all the mechanics in standard dice, and strife being determined on what you roll on any action regardless of what it is. (which is another wrong rub for me)

3 hours ago, Toku Askanidog said:

I didn’t say they hid anything. But requiring a supplemental purchase on top of the rules, is part of what gets weighed in my decision making process.

Would it will make it better if they sold it as a bundle? Book+set of dice? I mean, I already paid 50€ for just one D&D book, wouldn't mind paying 40+10€ for a L5R and 10 custom dice.

Just saying this because, while I understand your logic behind not wanting to purchase extra, I think in the end it just will be the same as with every other RPG. If you like it, expending 10 bucks on some dice will be the minor expense nin your entire collection.