46 minutes ago, Edgookin said:

It definitely sounds like you need to put some rails in place. Maybe even have some of the adventures start "in media res". Check out some of the old WEG modules on d6Holocron. The have a short script at the beginning which is the players talking about how they got into this situation, then it starts with the action, whatever it is. And if they really don't want to play through a module, ask them what they want to do. Maybe they don't want an RPG, and just want a boardgame.

Yeah and my campaign with these guys is over, but the next time I play with them I will do what you suggest. I will give an exhaustive explanation of what I need to have to feel like the game is worth doing.

1 hour ago, themensch said:

Players don't want to engage in the story and instead look at you, the GM, to provide entertainment in your sandbox? Well, okay!

I'll again reference my idea of a "clockwork sandbox" where I create, populate, and manage a setting and its inhabitants. I cook up stories for those inhabitants. Those provide hooks for the PCs. How they interact informs how the sandbox changes - they use their agency to play in a world that constantly changes with or without them. Is my world built from their backgrounds? Oh you'd better believe it. Obligations? Yup. Duties? Yup! So if the players want to go off to find the best porridge in all of Manadalore, sure, I'll entertain that. But that dog doesn't hunt for more than a few minutes, and that's when it's time to have the world interact with them...in a thematically appropriate way. I won't rob them of their agency, but I will dangle some action in front of them to break them from the reverie. However, if everyone's having fun, me included, then I just let it roll. That's rule zero after all.

Of course, the best porridge in all of Mandalore is contained in a secret recipe passed down to a paranoid fugitive Mandalorian commando from the Deathwatch who has decamped for a remote and dangerous region inhabited by frightful beasts and bounties out on him from the Government of Mandalore and The Empire as well as old scores from people like Bo Katan he is hoping never get settled....

7 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Of course, the best porridge in all of Mandalore is contained in a secret recipe passed down to a paranoid fugitive Mandalorian commando from the Deathwatch who has decamped for a remote and dangerous region inhabited by frightful beasts and bounties out on him from the Government of Mandalore and The Empire as well as old scores from people like Bo Katan he is hoping never get settled....

This is of course a masterful stroke!

My players once spent 20 minutes playing through their PC's buying coffee on Naboo, and it was actually quite a lot of fun. And I won't even get into the milkshake incident in the Voltare system.

47 minutes ago, Vorzakk said:

My players once spent 20 minutes playing through their PC's buying coffee on Naboo, and it was actually quite a lot of fun. And I won't even get into the milkshake incident in the Voltare system.

Sounds Kinky.

2 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Yeah and they did a few things to cause this sort of retribution and interaction from hostile forces, but when it occurred they howled, and were it not for the look I know I had on my face I know they would have called it unfair. Then they saw the connection between what they did and what had happened and promptly started trying to sanitize their interactions to prevent further incidents. I'm not kidding man they actually endeavored to avoid adventures. I do understand that it could seem that maybe this was me not handling the sandbox elements right or maybe not having characters who are suitable for such adventures, but really it was about players trying to avoid reasonable danger. If they would have told me that they wanted to play The Remains of the Day we could have set that up, but this thing where they attempt to just turtle up and avoid/resent action was driving me nuts.

I am so glad that the problem in my games is that my players will hit anything that even looks like it might be a hook. I have to be careful to have the actual hook I prepared for dangled in front of my players before I do any description, or they will go charging off in the wrong direction.

58 minutes ago, Vorzakk said:

My players once spent 20 minutes playing through their PC's buying coffee on Naboo, and it was actually quite a lot of fun. And I won't even get into the milkshake incident in the Voltare system.

A lot of this is dependent on table-dynamics and personalities. If players can make dialogue or exposition interesting, then you can make the most of otherwise banal interplay. I have one player who describes her character's wardrobe, body-language, and even tone of voice in detail. And, quite honestly, who knew space fashion could be so interesting? The thing is, she works it into the scene in such a way the clothes are not only a part of the scene, but serve as a form of characterization that let's you visualize what she's trying to do. I have another player who does the same thing with action exposition. When her character goes full-on saber-monkey you know exactly what he character did. Both have forced me to up my descriptive game.

Rails are not always bad as they can help contain a narrative and sandboxes are not always good as they can lead to analysis paralysis.

Rule 1 of GMing (after Rule 0: Have fun) is "know your table and know what they respond to." With a lot of groups it's helpful to give the players the hook, make it clear that this is the hook, but then sit back and let them work out next steps. If you have a general story in mind, you can help narrate the dice rolls in order to keep them on track. For example, if they flub a roll, you can rule that they succeeded on a task but took strain, wounds, or some other penalty in order to keep the story momentum.

It's also helpful to have the game be an ongoing conversation. At a party it's rude to have one person completely dominate the conversation and you can encourage others to speak up by constantly peppering them with questions. The same idea works in game. If the players are spinning their wheels, just start asking them questions about what their characters would do in that situation. This will get them talking to you and to each other.

Something else to keep in mind is that a lot of gamers are really, really lazy. They want to roll a die, simulating whether or not they hit a monster with an axe, and then sit back again. These types of players aren't going to get much out of a narrative game because they aren't capable of contributing to the table.

Rule 2 of GMing is "be a cheerleader for the players." So if they hit on an idea that you didn't think of that works... or if they really nail a roll... give them a little verbal boost at the table. Don't be a cornball about it but a "nice one, guys!" does help. In my experience, positive affirmation is an under-used tactic in gaming as most GMs are too adversarial.

On 10/7/2017 at 10:34 AM, Archlyte said:

So given this vignette, what sort of feedback can you guys give me about this situation?

Couple of things come to mind:

1) Point out exactly how hard it is to actually die in the game. Get knocked out? Sure. But death? Really pretty hard without GM Fiat.

2) Show, don't tell. Throw them into a game where they are being shot at, chased, hounded and otherwise up to their eyeballs in risk - and do this from the very first moment of the game. Open with the Star Destroyer shooting at them. The secret agent staggers out of the bushes and dies in their arms and the Enemy Agents are right behind and shooting. Run them through a gauntlet of awesome, fun risk where they come out the other side more or less intact and go "There, that wasnt so bad, was it?"

3) These characters, I assume they don't exist in a vacuum? No? Fine - then Grackus the Hutt kidnaps Aunt May and Uncle Ben and puts them to work in his palace kitchens and in his slave mines (two different locations so they have to hit two different moments of great risk). If they say no, then they get no experience for that session. Call it an "acting against character" tax.

Another ription. Start the adventure in media res. They are already in planet youknowhatx captured by intelligent wampas armed by hand blaster canons. They blew their operation m and are captured. The Empire is about to collect them and they can see the lambda approaching. What do they do?

13 hours ago, MonCal said:

Another ription. Start the adventure in media res. They are already in planet youknowhatx captured by intelligent wampas armed by hand blaster canons. They blew their operation m and are captured. The Empire is about to collect them and they can see the lambda approaching. What do they do?

And this is the key thing. The characters don't need to succeed for everyone to have a good time, it is the trying that is important (and I will wangle anyone who brings up Yoda's comment at this point. It makes no context to bring it up here! XD). Have some operations that were naturally doomed at the outset, but having the players be the recovery team to rescue an important rebel operative that knows something about something else; critical imperial movement. Or alternatively have survival in the face of escalating odds, if they fail they are captured; which allows them to meet some contacts for a breakout...

But don't make every mission about the high stakes. I got really fatigued at one point in my AOR campaign because we were basically raiding imperial bases more or less every session. It made sense given the context of the campaign (ramping up to endor) but I found it tedious to wade through bunker after bunker of ultra high importance stuff. To me I had signed on several years ago for the firefly vibe, where actually getting out, not getting into the base was the hard part, chases and stuff. Where grabbing the data isn't hard, but it's getting away from the imperial garrison in a variety of environments that proved more interesting, or killing the king of zygeria. Variety is really important I find for a satisfactory campaign, though perhaps besides your general need.

If the players are too timid due to circumstances outside their characters control, just start them right in the middle of the action and don't give them that choice; at least initially. Or have a simple job turn out to be really dangerous only when it's too late; then role play that "danger" as a couple of squads of stormtroopers. A danger indeed, but the danger is proportional to the situation.

4 hours ago, LordBritish said:

And this is the key thing. The characters don't need to succeed for everyone to have a good time, it is the trying that is important (and I will wangle anyone who brings up Yoda's comment at this point. It makes no context to bring it up here! XD). Have some operations that were naturally doomed at the outset, but having the players be the recovery team to rescue an important rebel operative that knows something about something else; critical imperial movement. Or alternatively have survival in the face of escalating odds, if they fail they are captured; which allows them to meet some contacts for a breakout...

But don't make every mission about the high stakes. I got really fatigued at one point in my AOR campaign because we were basically raiding imperial bases more or less every session. It made sense given the context of the campaign (ramping up to endor) but I found it tedious to wade through bunker after bunker of ultra high importance stuff. To me I had signed on several years ago for the firefly vibe, where actually getting out, not getting into the base was the hard part, chases and stuff. Where grabbing the data isn't hard, but it's getting away from the imperial garrison in a variety of environments that proved more interesting, or killing the king of zygeria. Variety is really important I find for a satisfactory campaign, though perhaps besides your general need.

If the players are too timid due to circumstances outside their characters control, just start them right in the middle of the action and don't give them that choice; at least initially. Or have a simple job turn out to be really dangerous only when it's too late; then role play that "danger" as a couple of squads of stormtroopers. A danger indeed, but the danger is proportional to the situation.

Yeah I agree. I am not one to throw continuous action at the players, so your recollection of the constant dire nature of your missions resonated with me. I try to do some pacing with this stuff, have a build up, some intrigue or mystery, then have it ramp up in act 2 or 3. I also like to have some RP time in there somewhere so I will sometimes slow the narrative down. This formula usually works pretty well because it allows for action to be used here and there. I hate Dungeon crawls because they are constant action or readiness for action and I get burned out fast in a session with such constant danger or combat. I think this was why it perplexed me so much when they refused to engage: I wasn't throwing constant danger at them.